Please do not streamline deep dungeons

Everything in the game has slowly been reduced to be in service of the same pve encounter model in the recent expansions. It's bosses in a circular arena (or squared if the devs feel particularly daring). It's encounters where it's all about dodging rote memorization of patterns that will oneshot ko.

Eureka Orthos already showed a lot of signs pointing in this direction, in contrast to Palace and Heaven. I do believe this is not a good thing for the game for multiple reasons:

1) It removes content variety and homogenizes all pve across all types of contents, and deep dungeons have been one of the few pieces of content with very unique mechanics, making use of more traditional roguelite and FF rpg mechanics (petrify, slow, heavy etc) that I would find extremely damageable to see gone to the profit of what we already have everywhere else in dungeons, trials and raids.

2) This seems to reduce the difficulty of solo runs (according to solo aficionados), while in my experience it dramatically inflates the difficulty for full party runs of optional floors, which harms the content's accessibility at a more casual level (aka, not solo parties).

With the hope that the next deep dungeon proves not only creative sure, but also actually preserves its core values and doesn't fall for the rampant homogenization that's been taken hold in pve in this game.

Thank you.

Devs (probably): ‘but how else will we make Deep Dungeon appeal to people who don’t like Deep Dungeon?!’

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

I don't do them solo much so I can't speak for the crowd that loves this, but there is definitely a dedicated niche for that and I can see why, there is a lot of decisions and things to manage carefully while running them solo, and it's unforgiving for the people that also look for a challenge.
I do agree that the leveling sections are boring and tedious, and that's exactly for similar reasons that normal dungeons can also be a snoozefest. I do however enjoy the semi casual experience they offer in optional higher floors.
I also do agree they need a shake up to make them more engaging, but this cannot come at the cost of their identity and niche which prompted this thread.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

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There is clearly enough people playing the content for SE to make another edition, so the comment about content being dead is bit funny.

Deep dungeons are not meant to be primarly leveling, thats a secondary effect.
People actually do find them fun, some just do it once for the fancy title, some stay for longer and do scoring or challenge runs.
While i agree that aetherpool is bit outdated and would use some rework, its not terrible either.

Also curious how you think devs should not listen to content creators, while biggest of them are also guide makers and are intimitely acquainted with how a new player feels about the deep dungeons as well as how veterans do.
Another thing is that there wasnt a single person suggesting the problematic changes that EO introduced.


Let me throw a curveball here:
Does anyone actually like savage/ultimate raiding? They stop being fun after 30 minutes of wiping and you only get something out of it (multiple hours in) after you perform flawlessly one time after many many wipes.

I feel like generally if they adjusted some hp distribution and maybe mob damage from EO it would be sorta fine?
Late telegraphs on lethal aoes are also not the best thing they came up with, but id take more animation telegraph like the crocodyle patrols raising up their arm for a cone etc.

What i would really like to see is some creativity, bigger attention on the exploration part:
-enviromental variables like acid puddles, maybe something akin to crystals in dzamael darkhold?
-multiple exits that could boost a chance of certain floor enchantments - for example you open red exit early but it has higher chance for gloom, but you have to take it cuz blue exit is blocked by tresure room.
-something like jump puzzle?
-more run defining items, something similar to phantom job maybe? You find a shard that unlocks a decently useful power that lasts longer?
-interesting rare spawns, something more engaging than dread beasts. Idk maybe once u find a fairy that gives you buff, but on other floor you are stalked by a dangerous elite mob?


I would not be opposed to streamlining the more technical aspecs. Stuff like sustaining potions and ways of accquireing them, aetherpool and grips etc.
The whole menu could be done better (why do i have to click 5 things to go in solo??) and the whole ordeal with save slots is tedious.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

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If people disliked deep dungeons I among many others wouldn't be tri-solo title holders. Though Orthos was easily my least favorite of the three.

They aren't dead, people like me just don't do parties. Maybe occasionally duo with a friend.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

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I like them. I run them with a group of 3 friends weekly. They sometimes force us to use spells we otherwise don't get to employ, like Sleep. Stuns and interrupts are genuinely meaningful. Stuff like Echo Drops are useful when you step into a trap. It's also been a nice opportunity for me to "test drive" new jobs before taking them into actual dungeons.

That being said, Eureka Orthos is miserable. The lower floor mobs have way too much HP. Everything can oneshot you. The pomanders aren't as interesting as in previous deep dungeons. Combined with the fact that it gives very little XP, I'm not a fan. As I have stated before, Raha needs to clean his own basement, preferably with a nuke.

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

I feel like generally if they adjusted some hp distribution and maybe mob damage from EO it would be sorta fine?
Late telegraphs on lethal aoes are also not the best thing they came up with, but id take more animation telegraph like the crocodyle patrols raising up their arm for a cone etc.

What i would really like to see is some creativity, bigger attention on the exploration part:
-enviromental variables like acid puddles, maybe something akin to crystals in dzamael darkhold?
-multiple exits that could boost a chance of certain floor enchantments - for example you open red exit early but it has higher chance for gloom, but you have to take it cuz blue exit is blocked by tresure room.
-something like jump puzzle?
-more run defining items, something similar to phantom job maybe? You find a shard that unlocks a decently useful power that lasts longer?
-interesting rare spawns, something more engaging than dread beasts. Idk maybe once u find a fairy that gives you buff, but on other floor you are stalked by a dangerous elite mob?


I would not be opposed to streamlining the more technical aspecs. Stuff like sustaining potions and ways of accquireing them, aetherpool and grips etc.
The whole menu could be done better (why do i have to click 5 things to go in solo??) and the whole ordeal with save slots is tedious.

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I'd like some of those features yes.

I'd also like some actual UI on their part even though XIV has always been stuck twenty years in the past when it comes to ergonomics. I'd like to have a bestiary, where every time you fight a new monster and see its moves, or try things against it, it unveils what abilities it has and what it does resist against (stuns, sleep etc, because it frankly feels like shit to have a wiki page open on the side to keep tabs on what monsters do). And not only you'd access the full version in said bestiary, you'd also have a small interface above the monster that shows those resists in real time, only showing "?" when it's the first time you meet the mob, but then displaying the actual resists or weaknesses (please introduce weaknesses SE) once you have actually prodded the mob with your abilities.

-> Example: first time you meet a chimera, you can only see multiple ? ? ? above it because you have no idea what it does. You start hitting the mob, try a sleep, it has no effect, and suddenly one of the ? turns into an icon that says sleep resistant (it also gets added to the bestiary). Chimera casts Dragon's Voice, it also gets added to the bestiary under the chimera entry. Suddenly you hit with interrupt, and it shows an interrupt icon under vulnerabilities, which idk, makes the stun last twice as long, or actually deals damage, or triggers a slow, idk.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd like some of those features yes.

I'd also like some actual UI on their part even though XIV has always been stuck twenty years in the past when it comes to ergonomics. I'd like to have a bestiary, where every time you fight a new monster and see its moves, or try things against it, it unveils what abilities it has and what it does resist against (stuns, sleep etc, because it frankly feels like shit to have a wiki page open on the side to keep tabs on what monsters do). And not only you'd access the full version in said bestiary, you'd also have a small interface above the monster that shows those resists in real time, only showing "?" when it's the first time you meet the mob, but then displaying the actual resists or weaknesses (please introduce weaknesses SE) once you have actually prodded the mob with your abilities.

-> Example: first time you meet a chimera, you can only see multiple ? ? ? above it because you have no idea what it does. You start hitting the mob, try a sleep, it has no effect, and suddenly one of the ? turns into an icon that says sleep resistant (it also gets added to the bestiary). Chimera casts Dragon's Voice, it also gets added to the bestiary under the chimera entry. Suddenly you hit with interrupt, and it shows an interrupt icon under vulnerabilities, which idk, makes the stun last twice as long, or actually deals damage, or triggers a slow, idk.

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tbh i love the bestiary idea, would be so nice to have the data in a neat ingame form and not rely on external websites when needing to check something. Would also incentivise you to play different jobs to 'collect them all', maybe with a little achievement for it. Could even have a neat title like "Biology Expert" or something similar.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons?

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I don't get it either. You never really hear of anybody doing them except on reddit, and most players in FCs I've interacted with them do them once, and come away aggressively... mid? It's not bad content by any means, but it's also such a huge waste of ideas, mechanics and designs, for virtually no gameplay derived from them.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

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I like them. Done lots of party clears over the years of all three that we have so far with friends. Made a few solo attempts but have never succeeded because I'm kinda bad lol.

In my experience one mistake isn't usually a wipe. I've had lots of cases where multiple people died and the lone survivor was able to salvage the situation. The risk of having to start over if you fully wipe gives the content some tension you don't usually find in this game, and the smaller (and flexible) party size makes it less of a hassle to organize compared to forked tower.

I do recognize that having a friend group that enjoys the content puts me in a bubble that may not be reflective of the general player base but I think it's good content and I'm glad SE is making another one.
I'm hoping the new one makes the enemies on lower floors have less hp compared to the ones in Orthos and adds some new gimmicks and floor designs to shake things up.

From what i see on lalachievements (i dont know how accurate is the site, but better than no data), about 4.2% of players got Aeturna mount and 8.5% got Juedi (mounts for clearing EO and HoH 4x times if you pick the accessories and not other rewards). 24.3% players cleared floor 100 of HoH, 12.9% cleared floor 100 of EO.
For comparison, ~24.2% cleared m4s once.

While its clear that EO has performed worse, for reasons i will address later, its still a large part of the community that has participated in the content (not to mention that its quite popular to do savage on alt characters for better loot opportunities, and people dont really play DDs on alts, do they)

Deep dungeons are a great investment for SE to keep alive, as it is 'ever-green' content, people return to it in times of content draught, when they're done with the tier of savage or whatever else.


Here are some my thoughts about why EO has underperformed compared to HoH (ignoring the time of release difference)
- poor balance of early floors, burning away the new people. Damage-sponge enemies with lethal abilities that early is just not the play (idea of more powerful avoidable patrols could work, but not all enemies)
- loot is simply subpar. Im talking strictly about the mount - how many people became interested in potd because of the amazing pegasus mount? The EO crab is not cute like the pegasus and is not goofy and funny like the dodo.
- The theme has already been explored with Crystal Tower and The Twinning.
- Overall too gloomy, even palace has more cheer on deep floors.

In my opinion the main reason why EO underperformed is because it's betraying the model and essence of PotD and HoH. It's trying to shoehorn the content into the current pve DDR bosses that we've had, where deep dungeons have never been about that. It's trying to be punishing with gotcha mechanics that just pushed people away.

"Streamline" be vague as hell, though.

For instance, there are a handful of things that could be considered "streamlining" that I nonetheless wouldn't mind:

• Less clunky pomander/etc. menus.
• Less of an output gap between low and high gear, leaving difficulty scaling to mechanics and thereby floor count (less reduction of challenge from gearing, with progress being more dependent instead on acquired knowledge and pattern recognition).
• More indication on the more unique and punishing of OHKO or near-OHKO mechanics from bosses.
• Slightly more indication (even if just through common patterns) of where traps would be.
• CC traps having their duration halved with each hit taken.
• Less mob HP.
• Slightly weaker mob auto-attacks.
• Small tunnels/runes at the end of long chains of rooms far separated from their last branch that teleport you back to where they forked.

YP mentioned somewhere "We're happy with the DD model"... so I'm afraid the next one won't be mechanically distinct as many would have hoped for.

Maybe that's why they decided to go for "going horizontally" rather than vertical floors? Just to give the impression that the formula was shaken up.

I wanted to actually see different map designs rather than just the same map with square rooms next to each other.

Ditch pomanders for a completely new power system. (Ironically I think Phantom Jobs would be a fine system for a Deep Dungeon if they were a little more fleshed out)

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Originally Posted by ThurinTurambar

Here are some my thoughts about why EO has underperformed compared to HoH (ignoring the time of release difference)
- poor balance of early floors, burning away the new people. Damage-sponge enemies with lethal abilities that early is just not the play (idea of more powerful avoidable patrols could work, but not all enemies)
- loot is simply subpar. Im talking strictly about the mount - how many people became interested in potd because of the amazing pegasus mount? The EO crab is not cute like the pegasus and is not goofy and funny like the dodo.
- The theme has already been explored with Crystal Tower and The Twinning.
- Overall too gloomy, even palace has more cheer on deep floors.

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It also has a bit of the WiiU problem: It does not sound like a Deep Dungeon. Eureka XYZ are the zones of, well, Eureka. Coupled with being in a zone nobody ever visits again nowadays and why would they, people just utterly forget there are 3 DDs in this game. I'm not joking, you ask ingame, everyone knows about POTD and that it got a refresh in HoH, but players who have been in 1.0 failed at first chance to mention EO.

I think auto attacks are fine for orthos. HoH autos though were particularly bad in the upper floors. Of course this is coming from a solo perspective. I felt a lot safer as a tank in HoH but would rather go dps for orthos due to the extreme damage sponge hp.

I hated starting EO over because 1-30 is a slog.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

I think auto attacks are fine for orthos. HoH autos though were particularly bad in the upper floors. Of course this is coming from a solo perspective. I felt a lot safer as a tank in HoH but would rather go dps for orthos due to the extreme damage sponge hp.

I hated starting EO over because 1-30 is a slog.

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I do feel like mobs in PotD and especially HoH hit too hard on the later floors, but regardless EO mobs didn't hit hard enough for me. I solo'd on SAM and basically never had to use pots (I think I used less than 10 overall?), which doesn't feel right for a challenge run. Part of that is SAM being tanky of course, but it's also a failure of the content when you don't feel pressured to use your resources on a solo run. I would like to see something between EO and PotD damage output, I think. Enough damage to make tank a reasonable choice instead of the optimal setup being DPS only.

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Originally Posted by GainsGoblin

Does anyone honestly like deep dungeons? They don't get any fun until very late (multiple hours in) and the fun ends if you make a single mistake, the same nonsense as Forked Tower where you have to put several hours aside and schedule a discord run in advance for a single pity pull. Leveling is just 21-30 spam despite having 100 floors, same for aetherpool leveling. Eureka Orthos was basically DOA content, people sometimes even forget it existed in Endwalker.

They don't need to be streamlined, they need a complete rework and they need to stop listening to the few content creators who run this content 24/7 for some unknown reason - the content is deader than disco

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Yes, people like to run them with friends and there is an entire community of people who like soloing them. I love the challenge personally.

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Originally Posted by Router

I do feel like mobs in PotD and especially HoH hit too hard on the later floors, but regardless EO mobs didn't hit hard enough for me. I solo'd on SAM and basically never had to use pots (I think I used less than 10 overall?), which doesn't feel right for a challenge run. Part of that is SAM being tanky of course, but it's also a failure of the content when you don't feel pressured to use your resources on a solo run. I would like to see something between EO and PotD damage output, I think. Enough damage to make tank a reasonable choice instead of the optimal setup being DPS only.

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I do enjoy the auto attack power of PotD more than other 2. I do also believe that the variance of option on the floors is a great thing. Learning what can be done without steel, what needs strength etc can be very rewarding. It also makes different jobs approach each mob a bit differently. On machinist i'd be happy to pull the 191's flytraps even under gloom, while on monk it would be very uncomfortable, if not steel forcing. On the other hand, there are mobs that are easier on the damage, but have paralasys/slow skills that make them less optimal choice on tanks (less so on healers cuz esuna).

HoH and PotD may feel a bit unfair due to crits being present. I feel like without them, it would be much more managable overall, but i dont think they need to be removed. I think if crits arent involved, PT having PotD levels of damage should be fine, especially that most jobs got something to mitigate it.