Forked Tower's Entrance System is Beautiful

Warning: If you are easily offended, do not read! 8)

I have not tried to enter Forked Tower (FT) yet because I am still grinding out Phantom Job masteries and gear upgrades like many others, but I do understand the numbers and exactly how it works. Hearing all the youtubers complain about the FT entrance system has put a smile on my face. SE wanted 'snipers' who are willing to pay to get in: this was obviously not an accidental design choice. For once the top players and those who have connections to other top players actually get to experience what average players experience. They cannot just go in and clear week one, or two, or three...who knows how long some will have to wait? It is glorious to see them complain about the entrance system when the same people generally argue against players who complain about the Savage entrance system. Hypocrites! Hypocrites who are almost always catered to!

Some players need better gear to be able to participate in Savage and always have to wait while some skilled Savage raiders farm gear using alts. We all know many high end raiders use illicit add-ons and they hint at it in their videos, so those players who do not use these add-ons will need to wait many many months for gear to compensate for their pings in some cases. SE has very few teaching tools between Normal and Savage. There is a wealth of Savage-level content and yet very, very little on the Extreme level: what have we received so far? Three Extremes in DT with a couple others that were supposed to have been Extreme level in difficulty but ended up closer to Savage? The dumbing down and removal of Expert Dungeons over the years didn't help. And now those very skilled players who might have to bring along undesirables from time to time have to wait for those less-skilled players to grind their stuff in CEs, Fates, and gold farms at a more normal pace to catch up.

'Get a static' is one of the most pervasive counter arguments of the top end players: 'it's a social game,' they say. Average gamers can't all schedule time for statics. I suspect a lot of more-skilled players will have to wait for more average players to catch up for FT to hit its stride. The more-skilled players will have to experience those players who do not know what they are doing or have not studied how to do the content for hours beforehand. How ever will they handle prog-points? Us average players have experienced prog-liars for years. That one cannot just make fully pre-made groups very easily for FT is excellent. They'll get to experience what PF is like. Emphasizing PUG groups is great and I hope to see more of it from time to time for optional content in the future. The system actually seems intentionally designed to force the issue of having to wait a month or two and bring along more average players. I know some will work their ass off to figure out how to bypass this and hopefully they fail, their complaints are considered invalid by SE and Yoshi-P doesn't cave. I hear the high end player strategy will be to not revive those filthy evil 'snipers' who will ruin their fun: they mention it with the hope it happens and cover themselves by saying those players have the right to be in there. So to all the whiny players who are obsessed with clearing as soon as possible who have to wait for the rest of us to get there, as Ultimate and Savage raiders sometimes say: 'it's optional content and you don't need to do it' or 'try forming a PUG' (I switched out 'static' for 'PUG'...teehee).

Thankfully they get to experience a little bit of what we experience almost every time new, usually high-end content is released. They obviously can't handle the FOMO the rest of us are accustomed to. Forked Tower may or may not turn out well, but the entrance system is socially elegant. Many of us average players have trained long and hard for this kind of entrance challenge and for once they've designed an entrance system that seems perfectly average difficulty to us. Some high end players have become too comfortable with their statics and voice chat and can't seem to handle a little friction. It's not really that hard to get in, some just feel entitled to get in immediately and with the 'right people'. If SE has made any mistake it was coddling those high-level players/influencers for too long. So skilled players learn to have patience, be more social, try meeting new players, try learning some new skills, and try to have fun. I know I am by just seeing the shoe on the other foot for once.

P.S. I am talking about a tiny subset of players with vocal online opinions: social media influencer types. Most high-end players are not loud, whiny, and entitled and rarely visit forums because they are busy having fun.

it is beautiful but just getting in is the massive problem xx)

There's only one issue. JP pugs have stopped doing this. They are not happy with this certain system. They've stopped doing FT. Plus we have all the nuances with the tower itseslf. Best way to say this, you need 3 time mages, 2 thieves, 2 geos, 2 rangers, 2 berserkers, 2 bards, 6 knights and 6 chemists and 1 oracle and 2 cannoners. You also have the 2nd boss who all have wipe mechs. You have bridges which could also lead to a wipe. You have the lockwards where you need careful rotation of who silences which add. Sorry to say this but the the average player isn't really going to consider this.

I suppose the average player could do it if you leave them dead the whole run and people offer carry runs. But as is when one person can wipe a whole alliance I don't see the average player doing this.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Snip.

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Where's the thread or all the comments about JP's FT experience? I'd like to have a read. It's nice to see all sides of the community joined in disdain for FT. lol

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Originally Posted by Hastatus

P.S. I am talking about a tiny subset of players with vocal online opinions: social media influencer types. Most high-end players are not loud, whiny, and entitled and rarely visit forums because they are busy having fun.

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I mean... Most high-end players are taking a break currently because they are also pissed off about how FT was handled.
Not sure why this content put "a smile on your face" because literally all players are being affected, not just the ones you hate.

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Originally Posted by SeriousPan

Where's the thread or all the comments about JP's FT experience? I'd like to have a read. It's nice to see all sides of the community joined in disdain for FT. lol

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Go to the JP forum section on here to look, under this same section. (Not sure the exact one but I've seen chat about it in a few different areas) Google translate isn't perfect but you can tell that some Japanese players aren't pleased about it.
Makes sense, because JP players are far more into using PFs and/or pugging to do content instead of Discord.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

I mean... Most high-end players are taking a break currently because they are also pissed off about how FT was handled.
Not sure why this content put "a smile on your face" because literally all players are being affected, not just the ones you hate.

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Should also add to this: it doesn't even matter if the "content creators" complain about it, they still have the luxury of getting enough people to run it and have people willing to wait hours between attempts.

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Originally Posted by Hastatus

I have not tried to enter Forked Tower (FT) yet

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I do wonder if you're going to change your opinion once you start trying to enter, and then once inside, trying to clear with how the group matching worked.

1. Content creators get paid to play the game by their viewers, while most others have to go to work.
2. In order to serve their "customers", they often no life content at release. This is how the world economy works.
3. Their viewers help them in many cases. This is brand loyalty, the mutual loyalty created by both sides.
4. You'd do all that too if you were in their position because it's logical.

In this case, the entrance issues affect everyone. It's problematic for just entering it as a coordinated group. Non-coordinated groups are likely to have a mistake that wipes everyone. So SE is to blame for requiring the participants to not make mistakes. If it was like CEs, discords wouldn't matter for it.

It's not just content creators who necessarily have to wait for the majority to reach max level and grind gear/buffs, it's no-lifer types in general that complain about that. It's also kinda logical that this issue happens though because most people play casually.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

1. Content creators get paid to play the game by their viewers, while most others have to go to work.
2. In order to serve their "customers", they often no life content at release. This is how the world economy works.
3. Their viewers help them in many cases. This is brand loyalty, the mutual loyalty created by both sides.
4. You'd do all that too if you were in their position because it's logical.

In this case, the entrance issues affect everyone. It's problematic for just entering it as a coordinated group. Non-coordinated groups are likely to have a mistake that wipes everyone. So SE is to blame for requiring the participants to not make mistakes. If it was like CEs, discords wouldn't matter for it.

It's not just content creators who necessarily have to wait for the majority to reach max level and grind gear/buffs, it's no-lifer types in general that complain about that. It's also kinda logical that this issue happens though because most people play casually.

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Or one can regard it as parasocial psychopathy.

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Originally Posted by Hastatus

...For once the top players and those who have connections to other top players actually get to experience what average players experience. They cannot just go in and clear week one, or two, or three...who knows how long some will have to wait? It is glorious to see them complain about the entrance system when the same people generally argue against players who complain about the Savage entrance system. ...

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XD

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...4b1514c584f85&

Fairplay.

I'll admit I regret not making a serious effort to get into forked. I gave it up as literally impossible. That's entirely my own fault. That said, I've given other things my all, and its been a let down (and a lot of time wasted), so I'll forgive myself for treating this content as the boy who cried wolf once too often.

The thing that hurts the most about Forked Tower is that it squandered it's considerable potential, it could have been a perfect melting pot where casual and hardcore players alike collaborate to PUG the content together, but unfortunately the way devs designed the instance runs completely against this spirit of co-operation of PUGs due to the following caveats:

1) If the raid wipes you get kicked out of Forked Tower and have to wait another 30-40 minutes before you can re-enter

2) You need specific Phantom Jobs to complete the raid otherwise you get hard-walled by the content and you don't know what other players have in their locker when you enter with randoms, plus once you jump down from the starting platform you can no longer change your Phantom Job to compensate if you are missing a specific one

3) You do not know the prog point of random people joining the instance so you have no idea if they know the fights or not and since one person can easily wipe the entire raid on some mechanics this leads to everyone's time being wasted [see 1) ]

4) You can only be resurrected 3 times which is very punishing for more casual players and may lead to them being reluctant to try the content due to being worried about dying and missing out on rewards in the process

Personally I find this highly frustrating as I would like to see more content that all players can enjoy but the way this raid was designed does not cater to random PUGs being able to clear it due to the high level of co-ordination and high price for failure that it entails. However, it doesn't advertise that it is a EX/Savage raid in disguise anywhere so I don't blame random players for trying to enter it, the fault lies with devs, not the people trying to enjoy the content.

Damn, I wonder why OP cant find a static lol

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Or one can regard it as parasocial psychopathy.

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Yeah there is no excuse for most of the content creators not 'focusing' more 'meaningfully' on the plight of the non-static/casual player other than very low empathy. Mostly it's generally "mention the problem if I must, but it's not 'really' a problem if you want to solve it how I solve it."

I found Mr Happy generally good at showing some understanding, (however as I was a casual his content was sadly still mostly still just irrelevant to me), then there is Cole Evyx and JMulls as well who show good empathy even though they are playing the game a high-end way.
But that's literally about it of the creators that do a lot of highend. Sadly one of my favourite creators whos hallmark was objectivity and did generally casual content seems to have started to loose the plot a bit and develop siege mentality when they start to touch on high end.

The rest though, the plight of casuals is a footnote, that is better solved by instead just playing the game their way, in between business as usual. Parasocial Sociopathy at the very least. I've found the EU high-end creators/commentators particularly out of touch, and a perfect explanation and reflection of the vibe on Light DC.

Then there are the more casual content, creators, who do savage in the background, and do show much better empathy, but that's something different. I've noted a number of them saying they are not really doing savage type content anymore.

And lastly the fully casual creators and lore enthusiasts. But they are so rare now and preciously few.

Then there are there XIV creators who just no longer do XIV at all. And good for them. They are clearly having more fun that way, which gives them the passion to do great content .

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

Yeah there is no excuse for most of the content creators not 'focusing' more 'meaningfully' on the plight of the non-static/casual player other than very low empathy.

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Yes there is: controversy = attention/views = money

Content creators, generally, are very intelligent. They don't have an actual empathy problem. They are just acting or exaggerating for the purpose of being entertaining. It's not as if they treat friends or a static that way.

https://i.ibb.co/4ZpTyRT6/1749967750585546.gif

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes there is: controversy = attention/views = money

Content creators, generally, are very intelligent. They don't have an actual empathy problem. They are just acting or exaggerating for the purpose of being entertaining. It's not as if they treat friends or a static that way.

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I never characterised it as a 'problem'. I take small issue with that.
(Actually maybe i did, I said 'very' low. Most aren't 'very.' Although, one or more kind of are though)
Also general 'intelligence' has nothing to do with it. Musk is intelligent.

However, like most people eventually I have to go with my own subjective judgement.
I don't believe it would harm their viewership numbers to focus 'more' on the casual situation provided they don't get as alienatingly emotional and vitriolic as for example I do.
At which joint why don't they?
The answer is they don't really 'care'.
They intellectually appreciate the problem it represents. But it doesn't affect 'them', and they prefer their own solutions to the mater (just play the game the way I do) because at the heart of it, they do fundamentally struggle to fully empathise with values and motivations that are very different from their own. "There is problem, but I dint really see the problem here when you could do like me?"

There is a lack of empathy. It's not a problem. Too much empathy I think can be crippling, but there is a lack of empathy when it comes to being a good fit for handling these kinds of problems with the game.

Either SE are going to have to put more money in, or high end is going to have to selflessly sacrifice. Empathy is the motivation for sacrifice. (I will not get into the stupidity which is a belief that 'everyone' is selfish and altruism doesn't exist because being kind, seeing other people happy , or imagining other people happy, makes people feel good themselves therefore that is selfish also, which is in fact an indicator of someone who functionally struggles to experience instinctive empathy and therefor just doesn't get it.)

But you can see the difference between those more empathic high end creators who 'get it' even though it didn't affect their gameplay personally, and those high end creators who don't, because from where they are sitting there isn't a problem, therefore others shouldn't have 'much' of a problem. "time maybe for you to accept that if I'm honest the best solution is for you to go away"

(I mean that's true for me, but that's not a typical matter. It's a much broader group they think should leave.)

blah blah T.E.D. talk blah blah.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

There's only one issue. JP pugs have stopped doing this.

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Where u get that info from? I have seen some ppl saying this but never with any proof.

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Originally Posted by RyomaUchi

Where u get that info from? I have seen some ppl saying this but never with any proof.

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https://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/...ml#comment-end

As I posted in another similar thread I will post here as well.
As for me developers need to move away from Alliance raids in this kind of content, especially where 1 of 48 people can wipe all others. Savage level inside the instances where you can be joined by anyone - this is absurd on the part of the developers.
If you want a dungeon inside an instance:
1. Make mechanics more gentle where because of 1-10 people on had to vayp the whole dungeon. Fewer mechanics where everyone has to do their own mechanics and where the wipe did not depend on that action. If a person died, it was possible to res and continue on.
2. Make then a tower for 8-16 people. For each party opened the choice to go to 8 or 16. Let's say if you need 16 people, the first group creates a list of entry, the other joins the first and the one who created the zone runs it as a normal dungeon. To collect such a number of players is easier and inside the instance. And there will be fewer problems with someone coming to you.
But the developers just make a savaga level dungeon, throw it in the player's face - and the community around such dungeons becomes so toxic that it becomes unrealistic and nasty to get into (like it was with chaotic). OC was created as a location for every level of player from casuals to hardcore players, and in the end 90% of players can't get through all the content, can't get to the point of collecting notes for the book.

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Originally Posted by RyomaUchi

Where u get that info from? I have seen some ppl saying this but never with any proof.

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Admittedly I heard it mostly through sausagerolls chat during one of his forked towers runs. However thanks to the other response, look at all those replies and here's one with their own experience.

https://x.com/taisan_ffxiv/status/1930318947603362135

1. Not everyone likes to watch streams.

2. It could have been mire accessible like Bozja

3. See point 1

4. This was casual content ppl were waiting for.

Again Jeeq you baffle me with your POV. Do you even play this game?

Moving on..

I agree, this was content ppl were waiting for yet there's no need outside of max jobs and +1.

I've already made hundreds of millions from it.

"Oh you sniped my 48 position" in a 72 man instance you must ne out of your mind.

There's no prompt for one. 2 your just have keeping. No respect for you

This is why ppl don't try harder content. Hate keeping like this.

"Bububu use discord" use the goddam chat box. Jesus

Assuming you're trying to quote me?

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Originally Posted by DivineP

1. Not everyone likes to watch streams.

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Never said they did. Don't know why you are assuming I said this. Kinda random.

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2. It could have been mire accessible like Bozja

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I don't disagree with you at all. Again, no idea why you are assuming I do. I was defending streamers' business model. I wasn't discussing the entry methods at all whatsoever.

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3. See point 1

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See point 1.

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4. This was casual content ppl were waiting for.

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See point 2.

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Again Jeeq you baffle me with your POV. Do you even play this game?

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Last I checked, my playtime was close to 3,000 days. Most people haven't played even close to the amount I have.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Assuming you're trying to quote me?

Never said they did. Don't know why you are assuming I said this. Kinda random.
I don't disagree with you at all. Again, no idea why you are assuming I do. I was defending streamers' business model. I wasn't discussing the entry methods at all whatsoever.
See point 1.
See point 2.
Last I checked, my playtime was close to 3,000 days. Most people haven't played even close to the amount I have.

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Clown strikes again.

Look Jeeq ppl arnt happy with the entry system. All over the board.

Read the room.

So if ppl wander in that's SES DESIGN CHOICE

not yours.

At the end of the dat after Bizja and ppl not realising. What do you expect?

This has been catered to discord grouos - which in my eyes is very unfair.

Using tank busters to kill ppl is just the icing on the cake.

Absolutely silly.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Assuming you're trying to quote me?

Never said they did. Don't know why you are assuming I said this. Kinda random.
I don't disagree with you at all. Again, no idea why you are assuming I do. I was defending streamers' business model. I wasn't discussing the entry methods at all whatsoever.
See point 1.
See point 2.
Last I checked, my playtime was close to 3,000 days. Most people haven't played even close to the amount I have.

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Surely if you've played as much as i do. You realise the change in the duty finder? Ff14 is dying. Putting things like this in the game pushes ppl away duh

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Originally Posted by DivineP

Look Jeeq ppl arnt happy with the entry system. All over the board.

Read the room.

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Again, I don't understand why you believe I am against the entry system being improved. This combined with you posting repeatedly is making me wonder if you're drunk?

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Originally Posted by Astronema

https://i.ibb.co/4ZpTyRT6/1749967750585546.gif

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Same. I love posts like this. Good reads all around.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

Not sure why this content put "a smile on your face" because literally all players are being affected, not just the ones you hate.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

I do wonder if you're going to change your opinion once you start trying to enter, and then once inside, trying to clear with how the group matching worked.

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Infindox: Reread why I smiled. I do not hate anyone. Hate is a wasted emotion.

I dislike that youtubers/influencers and some of their vocal followers are hurting the game and they do not even realize it. If all the whining about FT being 'too hard (to get in with the right kind of people),' being damaged by 'snipers,' and being a 'mistake' is taken seriously by SE, we, they and FFXIV will suffer harm. SE intentionally created a system where PUGS and pre-mades have to work together in a true MMO style. There are plenty of very skilled leaders who know how to lead people through BA and DRS. They will have to adapt and figure out how to teach and bring along PUG gamers with their partial pre-mades. They have the skill and knowledge, while the PUG gamers are the soldiers. The entrance and token system is proof of intentionality. Players being able to wipe raids is nothing new and irrelevant to the big picture. So let us assume this design decision is a small intentional social change made by SE.

So many players complain that FFXIV is stale and SE needs to take more risks, but you are going to whine at a tiny social system change that creates a new kind of challenge/difficulty experience? You will complain that SE is copy pasting the same formulaic content and when they change the formula you want them to change it back? SE is already slow and terrified of changes and you want them to undo a small change in an outlier piece of content where experimentation is supposed to take place?

Someone asked me if I would still feel the same way once I get into the content. Yes. Even if this content is not for you or you think it is bad, change is still a wonderful thing to see happen. If you want new things and variation you must be willing to accept it in all tiny forms when it rarely appears. If this change is snuffed out for the sake of full pre-mades, SE will be all the more unwilling to make any meaningful changes in the future. Basically there is currently an obsession with deleting other real players by changing the entrance system rather than trying to adjust the actual fight mechanics in the raid. If this change remains and there are issues in the actual raid they might consider how to evolve raids for PUG and pre-made combinations: i.e. change other things that might have further and further implications to other content later. I think this would be an example of the butterfly effect.

So snuff out any future evolution for the sake of a tiny selfish minority's short term convenience? No. I'll look out for and support meaningful changes, even if others are too blind to see their future potential implications. I will say so openly when I see them even if the trend is to try and punish and deride such opinions with the rest of the mob because later if the change is deleted I will have no regrets for having stayed silent.

P.S. Chef's kiss to Hellraiser and M. Hamill's Joker. Love those characters. :D

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Originally Posted by RyomaUchi

Where u get that info from? I have seen some ppl saying this but never with any proof.

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I play on JP and I notice the lack of PF for FT. Around week 2, there were a couple (2-3) PF for FT, but lately it's just silent. I don't even see many people put up gold farm party (maybe most people have finished with it already?). I've seen more PF for chaotic and savage.

Obviously that doesn't mean nobody still trying to do FT. I still notice some people attempting to enter it when the weather change, but it's also noticeably fewer than weeks ago.

Just my observation though.

What in the shitpost is this