1 Patch Later: RDM Grievance Retrospect

I feel like I'm gaslighting myself or going insane trying to like and justify RDM's new kit ever since it was reworked.

I should also preface that my thoughts are in the context of exclusively CC. Some arguments can be made about my points for Frontline, but that's neither here nor there.

The new kit still pales in comparison to the old one (personally to me). I really miss the unique job identity it had. White and black shift truly feels like it was from another lifetime... like a fever dream.

Is it just me, or does Vice of Thorns and Prefulgence feel like an afterthought to the rotation? Because the potencies are so spread out across these skills, I've always felt my damage was padded throughout matches compared to when a lot of the damage was backloaded to verflare which paired PERFECTLY with the melee combo dot *chefs kiss*.

Having to choose between Scorch and Prefulgence as a finisher felt so clunky to me when the old kit only had 1 to focus on. The new rotation doesn't synergize well with displacement because you'll have to choose one over the other.

The risk and reward factor of RDM was completely erased when the devs removed B/W shift... I really loved being able to capitalize on frazzle and being rewarded with heavy AoE damage. When I was punished for using it in bad plays, it would make me stop and think.

Magick Barrier into melee combo feels so much better and makes more sense as a self sustain compared to Forte into Vice of Thorns. I know Vice of Thorns is sort of there as a means to bail, but for a class that is constantly engaging and disengaging in combat, it feels somewhat clunky to me personally. B/W shift did that job perfectly well already whether you needed to bind enemies to bail or silence them to retaliate. I also loved the flexibility of displacement into either verholy or verflare for whatever the situation called for.

But you know what I'll miss the most? Loading my full melee combo on an enemy dragoon who jumps into their LB and then proceeds to splat on the ground because they died from my dot. We are forever losing the ancient texts </3

Will the devs ever revert these changes back? Only time will tell, but now I'm just left reminiscing of days long past. :(

I played RDM almost exclusively in FL and got at least 99% of my HoM title, with that job. I HATE the changes they made. I miss making decisions on what shift I want to be in like, if I am engaging in a rare duel, do I play safe or go for the kill? I have literally won matches, with the old binding, stopping a lead tank from disrupting a winning node claim. But yea, I really miss it being MY choice on how I want to approach a specific engagement.

All they had to do, was remove the stupid circle from under us, or keep it so only we could see it (or change it to a harder visual tell, for enemy to guess which shift we were in - like having the stone change color). I find the new kit (and really, the overall changes they made to FL) awful and have moved on to other jobs. But yea, I miss old RDM. They will never revert and I'm kinda getting done with pvp, with the changes they made. I don't find it as fun as I used to.

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I played RDM almost exclusively in FL and got at least 99% of my HoM title, with that job. I HATE the changes they made. I miss making decisions on what shift I want to be in like, if I am engaging in a rare duel, do I play safe or go for the kill? I have literally won matches, with the old binding, stopping a lead tank from disrupting a winning node claim. But yea, I really miss it being MY choice on how I want to approach a specific engagement.

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I definitely agree. The decision making that goes into shifting from B/W stance was what made RDM really fun and engaging to me. Now the rotation is just consists of mashing buttons off CD... Frazzle and Magick Barrier just synergized PERFECTLY with B/W shift and by extension Verflare/holy... I don't understand what made the devs remove this completely.

You perfectly put into words as to what RDMs so unique in PvP; being able to choose how to approach an engagement was so much fun and made the skill ceiling much more enjoyable. I always felt pre 7.1 red mages along with monks were the strongest duelists and definitely my favorite 1v1s to engage in.

Pouring one out for all my fellow RDMs tonight...

My view of the high point of the job goes back even further; before the EW revamp. That's neither here or there though as it's not coming back. What I did come to identify with it, and the reason why I played it back then too, was flexibility. Being able to pivot on a near whim based on what was going on.

It sort of kept some of it across the revamp but imo it's not what I'd consider a hallmark of the job. I'm not even sure how it is from the playing side now, only what to look for when facing one, because I benched it long before the most recent changes... but on a gloss-over that's not really a thing with them anymore for sure. There's almost no prediction involved that can go either way on it. Just the silence, the rest is whatever. Vice of Thorns is cute but it's totally side-steppable most of the time. Guess we can pin most of this on PCT daring to exist huh? /simper

(No joke I migrated to PCT for a bit as it had some remnants of being able to be more choosy, but it's still mostly an illusion of choice in comparison.)

The current RDM kit is both white and black in the same package available at once. The crowd control and utility of the job (not to mention its survivability in melee) is wild. I think it's pretty close to S tier at high level, if it wasn't beaten by the usual culprits.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The current RDM kit is both white and black in the same package available at once. The crowd control and utility of the job (not to mention its survivability in melee) is wild. I think it's pretty close to S tier at high level, if it wasn't beaten by the usual culprits.

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I don't think the overall power and performance of Red Mage is what is the issue, but rather the removal of having to actively choose between more damage or more survival with your Shifts - making the job have everything at 90-100% of both Shifts all the time and removing the planning makes the job feel monotonous in nature, i.e. what Junebuggy meant with "Now the rotation is just consists of mashing buttons off CD", because other than holding your buttons to sync with your team, there is limits to the choices you can make in your gameplay flow.

Short - its boring.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The current RDM kit is both white and black in the same package available at once. The crowd control and utility of the job (not to mention its survivability in melee) is wild. I think it's pretty close to S tier at high level, if it wasn't beaten by the usual culprits.

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I can agree that the devs merely "repackaged" the kit and kept things like self shields, dots, and party utility. However my biggest complaint is they've essentially dumbed down the rotation and unique trait of dancing between B/W shift which allowed for more flexibility and skill expression. I feel the new kit now forces RDM players to a singular playstyle as compared to before when players could choose to play aggressively of defensively all the while building up their finisher to support the team or pressure the enemy on the objective.

I like Vice of Thorns. It's one of the more fun counterattack-type mechanics for the user and, while it sucks you can get stunned for your teammate's actions, it's overall one of the healthier ones in the game. It's pretty distinct.

Prefulgence, tho? Brings no enrichment to the job. It feels so tacked on and uninteresting. Not a numbers thing. Just not fun to use. Doesn't have a sense of flow or satisfaction to it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I don't think the overall power and performance of Red Mage is what is the issue, but rather the removal of having to actively choose between more damage or more survival with your Shifts - making the job have everything at 90-100% of both Shifts all the time and removing the planning makes the job feel monotonous in nature

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Thank you for bringing this point up. This perfectly illustrates how removing the binary system of B/W shift forces RDMs to this lackluster "jack of all trades, but master of none" kit that while has very appealing qualities on paper, it unfortunately cannot excel beyond its constraints which really guts its full potential compared to before.

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Originally Posted by JuneBuggy

I can agree that the devs merely "repackaged" the kit and kept things like self shields, dots, and party utility. However my biggest complaint is they've essentially dumbed down the rotation and unique trait of dancing between B/W shift which allowed for more flexibility and skill expression. I feel the new kit now forces RDM players to a singular playstyle as compared to before when players could choose to play aggressively of defensively all the while building up their finisher to support the team or pressure the enemy on the objective.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I don't think the overall power and performance of Red Mage is what is the issue, but rather the removal of having to actively choose between more damage or more survival with your Shifts - making the job have everything at 90-100% of both Shifts all the time and removing the planning makes the job feel monotonous in nature, i.e. what Junebuggy meant with "Now the rotation is just consists of mashing buttons off CD", because other than holding your buttons to sync with your team, there is limits to the choices you can make in your gameplay flow.

Short - its boring.

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I do agree yes. I felt like pointing out that since it wasn't clear if the post was only about identity/flavour or also covered gameplay potential, that the new RDM, much like the new GNB, seem to have dropped the stance flavor in favor of a stronger, consolidated toolkit with a lot less constraints.
Amusingly enough both jobs gained a lot in power, whether it's just because the effort required is lowered, or that they have access to everything at once.
If anything RDM when playing against it, I find extremely infuriating since you keep eating silences and stuns all the time and you perfectly know where it comes from. I don't like that, I also felt like the choices felt more engaging back then and a lot less obnoxious to play against.

I'd imagine that would be quite annoying. Using resolution in plain sight tends to taunt people to target me which triggers Vice if Thorns and let's me stun others. With Phantom Dart and the changes to assists this will get you Battle High really fast and then even your CCs will do good damage.

To me, current RDM feels like mobile artillery. What I miss most are the DOTs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Amusingly enough both jobs gained a lot in power, whether it's just because the effort required is lowered, or that they have access to everything at once.

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Hmm... I would argue consolidating RDM's kit ended up doing more damage to its potential in hindsight and constrained it more than it had before.

For EDW RDM, having access to 2 polarizing skill sets all the while being able to simultaneously switch between the two in combat was powerful. I feel having access to the entire kit all at once inadvertently nerfed this really cool binary of augmented damage (Verflare) or healing (Verholy) for whatever the situation called for. Contesting the Crystal? Securing a kill? Trying to bait 2 opponents to chase you to move them away from the objective xD?

I could become a cannon and catch opponents off guard with a Frazzle into Verflare OR if I notice the team needing healing after dumping my melee combo in black stance, I can become support and easily switch to white, throw out a Magick Barrier into Verholy. Shoot, we could even mix and match the combos by throwing a Magick Barrier initially for mitigation for contesting or Frazzle for a party buff and disengage to support from afar. Having consolidated skills takes away the ability to hold these powerful finishers and goes back to my earlier point of simplifying the rotation. It's predictable and boring.

TLDR; I love being able to move my numbers around wherever I wanted to with EDW RDM! It was so cool!!!!

I would have to do actual calculations on potencies if we really wanted to get analyze RDM numbers to the nitty gritty, but I think that's besides the point.

Resolution with bind was devastating.

RDM definitely feels more streamlined. The BW shift was great, but I also like the shield into stun which gives you a clear window at melee time. I wish they had built upon BW with the latest changes instead of altogether removing it.

Now RDMs can share something with SAMs... running around saying "Hit me, hit me, hit me..."

The black/white stance gave RDM a unique job identity.

The problem is that SE needed to give a unique job identity to PCT because it was the new caster job and since they are hacks who can only have one job design idea once every few years, they just decided to take away the black/white stance from RDM and give it to PCT (where its called subtractive palette but it's by and large the same concept)

If they didn't remove it from RDM, PCT would have seemed nothing more than a knock off of RDM.

Trying to analyze this from a "how is this supposed to make RDM more fun to play" angle is only going to lead to frustration.