real problem with new SMN design, not difficulty it is actually WORSE class fantasy

For years people complained that summoner was not a real summoner. Then in EndWalker they showed off the new big summons of Ifrit, Titan, Garuda. People said now it will be like a real summoner and not with egis (which I miss btw).

Right now much of the complaints is that summoner is too easy but I am not sure that is really the heart of the complaint.

The thing is SUMMONING is too easy. What do I mean by that? Press button, summon appears. Go to next one. Press button summon appears go to next one.

What is a summoner in Final Fantasy? It is a fantasy of summoning these godlike entities that drastically or should drastically change the tide of a battle. Other FF deal with this in various ways. MANA cost is one for the older FF. Replacing your party happens in FFX. FF7 RE you have to be in a pinch a timer appears and you have limited to time call it out. FF8 takes time to call them out and they can get killed by attacks while you are summoning it.

In FFXIV it used to be something you built up. You would have to use aetherflow. You would need to be deep into your rotation. Bahamut felt like a reward when it came out. Infact, as with all things rewarding, if you messed up you lost it. If you died all that work building up to Bahamut...was lost. But when you didn't mess up, you felt good about it.

Now? Presss button. Done.
Instant popout.

Not to mention what are these summons other than Bahamut? Garuda exists to be shadowflare, a much better skill that got removed with the dot purge.
Ifrit exists to allow a gap closer except we don't get to use it when we want and usually just hit it off cooldown making it almost pointless other than having to be careful when we use it.
Titan is just ruin spam that looks different.

People used to complain about times when all you had was ruin spam....but that is what summoner is now, just with a different coat of paint.

And I still play and main summoner, I just wish feedback reaches their ears so 8.0 has GOOD changes.
Truthfully, I liked the pre-endwalker summoners way better. Stormblood probably was peak, Shadowbringers was pretty good.
I was hyped when Endwalker came but this really falls flat.

I haven't played many other ff games.

To me before ff14 I felt like a "summoner" would summon something to fight alongside them, with new summoner where people say "feels like your actually summoning things" I feel disconnect because I really don't feel like I'm summoning anything I press a button big summon on screen then goes off after like one attack, Really doesn't feel like a summoner to me... even dark knight feels like it's "summoning more then a summoner" as you summon the shadows to fight with you and it lasts more then 4 seconds.

Though to me theirs serval issues with summoners design, gameplay being the core issue if it's boring I usually don't play a job no matter how appealing it's "fantasy" is, I dislike how little it casts for a magic job but I also dislike how little i have to even think about rotation, nothing about the job appeals to me in its current form.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

with new summoner where people say "feels like your actually summoning things" I feel disconnect because I really don't feel like I'm summoning anything I press a button big summon on screen then goes off after like one attack

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Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

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I much prefer summons actually lasting personally It doesn't need to be a full on pet job (i don't mind that) but surely theirs a interesting design that isn't just "titan appears on screen and goes away"

Also when visibility on the field matters as much as it does in this game it made sense for them to typically be as small as the egis and not too flashy too often, something the gem summons are pretty darn terrible at.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

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Though old SMN functions similar to 10, 11 and 12. A near permanent summon that stayed on the field and offered you advantage (outside of it replacing your party)

Who’s “SMN” is correct

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Though old SMN functions similar to 10, 11 and 12. A near permanent summon that stayed on the field and offered you advantage (outside of it replacing your party)

Who’s “SMN” is correct

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To me a summoner like that is way more fitting thematically, instead of just summoning something to appear for 2 seconds and do a attack then go.

To me the current version feels like an actual Summoner from the older FF games that I played.

It just could use more Summoner variety or at least the ability to give them new appearances such as Ramuh, Shiva and Leviathan.

SMN was my main since I started in SB and that is where I fell in love with the job. I have always liked summoning in FF games. Yuna was my favorite FF character when growing up! That said, I never understood ppl who said that ff14 old smn didn't feel like a real FF smn. To me, FF14 smn was its own thing, but was a smn no matter what. It felt good working up to baha and getting him, it felt so rewarding to do so and it felt amazing to see him ark moan. Now tho...you don't have to work at all to get your summons and none of them feel impactful, they more or less just buttons you press off cooldown now and there's nothing special. I get the same feel from pressing one of these summon buttons as I do pressing another jobs filler buttons, nothing. I get it, old smn wasn't about summoning all the time, but that's what made summons feel special and earned. Now when you summon Titan or Gardura, it feels like nothing because you see it so many times throughout fights.

Also to the comment above me, the LAST thing summon needs is the ability to "glam" the summons into other FF summons. That would add nothing to the job what so ever and just continue the theme of new smn being just a flashy light show that plays itself. I want the job to feel rewarding again, and I want the summons to feel like they make an impact on the fight and not just some filler spells you press and don't earn. As OP said, SB smn was peak IMO and ShB smn was great as well. The devs killed smn for most of its playbase in EW with its souless rework in hopes to get more players to play it. Yeah, it worked, but at the cost of the soul and core of the job.

Yeah like, the class fantasy is the one thing it truly truly nails. It feels like an actual summoner.

It could be better, of course. Instead of casting spells ourselves we give "commands" (mechanically nothing changes, but Ifrit etc do the attacks, visually). And mechanically there's a lot to improve in general, not in amount of buttons (one of the few things Summoner gets right mechanically is that it eshews the entirely braindead button bloat of most DPS jobs). But it needs variety, randomization in particular, 6-10 minor summons and you get a random set, and the next major summon is random, too! And then differentiate them more.

Even if the current SMN is more of what people think of when they think of a Final Fantasy summon (standing around doing nothing while a big flashy thing happens on screen) I've just really-- never understood what could possibly make that appealing in an MMO. That just doesn't even begin to sound like fun to me. It's something that works way better in a more traditional Final Fantasy where it's turn based. But this is a real time action game-- hotbars regardless-- where you're meant to be running around and actively participating in a fight. Thus a more fitting SMN would be one where the summons stick around, and you fight alongside them. Y'know-- a Pet Job! I felt way more like I was summoning things back when my egis were chosen situationally based on if I needed aoe-damage, single-target damage, or mitigation.

Additionally, as it's a real-time team game with focus on positioning: you'd want summons that are non-intrusive visually. Egis were small and visually distinct from their larger counterparts for a reason. Otherwise, you end up in the situation we're in, where people who don't play SMN frequently complain about SMNs because their summons are too visually loud. It's particularly severe with the current visual design habits of fights-- sometimes you'll just miss things since Titan's massive, square butt is blocking your screen (maybe we shouldn't need to manually set summon sizes clientside). Every summon-- especially because they're recycling the original raid-wide vfx from the trials-- just makes things needlessly harder to see for everyone, including the person playing summoner! It's not good, I don't know why the job design team decided that the flashier, bigger summons were a good idea. It's like a steady stream of RDM LB3s-- my eyes hurt so, so bad.

I mained SMN in StB and ShB! I was obsessed and I played daily just to play it. And I swear I tried really hard to like new SMN-- and I did for the first few months! Before it sunk in just how empty the job is. I don't think RNG or a nebulous collection of more summons is going to fix the fact that pressing a button to make lights happen is fundamentally unengaging after the 10,000th time you've pressed the button. The "traditional ideal of a Summoner" just isn't fun.

Since as Casters we barely do any casting, I think it will be interesting if we have a "Cast phase" then a "Mobility phase" for our rotation, given that the Summon's Favor - where our attacks change to the summons element- is granted at the "Cast phase" but can be activated during the " Mobility phase", it will go like this:
1. In the casting phase, we summon ifrit/Garuda/titan back to back as a hard cast, afterwards, we insta summon Baha/Phnx/SolBaha similar to what we have now.
2. After the Casting phase comes the mobility phase, where we activate the Summon's Favor at any order we want and execute attacks on the move until we go back to summoning again.

For more variety, the summoning roster can change between each casting phase between (ifrit/gauda/titan) and (levi/Ramuh/Shiva).

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Yet, that's exactly how "summoning" worked in FFIV and FFVI, so it's not without precedent in the franchise.

The problem is that for that model to work in FFXIV, you probably need 10+ summons with varying characteristics and costs. "Push button to deal damage with a different color" doesn't quite carry the same weight.

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That’s where I fell in love with SMN: 4 & 6. Oh the number of summons you could have in 6!!!

They could easily add in at least the remaining 3 elements - Levi, Shiva & Ramuh - as gem summons with their own unique actions, adding more attacks without more buttons. With the rework, it seemed so obvious that that would be the next step, and then we got Sol… and as I’ve mentioned before, I also like the idea of splitting the 6 into astral and umbral teams that can be swapped between. It could still be a simple rotation for new players while allowing more experienced players to optimize.

It could also open up the possibility for them to add more triads of gem summons in the future, though something tells me they won’t. lol I really wonder what the plan is for post-100 job advancement… I could see them adding a way to pick and choose a SMN load out like 16 had, but again I doubt that, because they’d have to add at least one more triad immediately. And what would be the equivalent for other jobs to choose skills from?

But one thing I’m seeing here that I kinda agree with, it does feel odd that we start off with Sol. One of the things I enjoy in a lot of other jobs is the buildup to the more powerful attacks. I feel like SMN’s rotation got modified to appease the opener/burst timing, because otherwise we wouldn’t get to Sol before that ends.

I hate the wish.com Bahamut. It's such a lame thing to even waste artist time on, when Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, soooo many already exists in the game.

Let me summon Doomtrain, Lhakshmi and Gilgamesh, too! Tsukuyomi? <3

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I hate the wish.com Bahamut. It's such a lame thing to even waste artist time on, when Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, soooo many already exists in the game.

Let me summon Doomtrain, Lhakshmi and Gilgamesh, too! Tsukuyomi? <3

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im pretty sure the new Bahamut isnt even new, its an adjusted fate boss from lakeland.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

im pretty sure the new Bahamut isnt even new, its an adjusted fate boss from lakeland.

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I mean that's - marginally - better. No artist time wasted. :P

Still feels like "Oh we got Bahamut at home" meme stuff...

As much as ppl around here hate it, FFXI did amazing things with class fantasy. If you played a smn, sch, thf, war, mnk, whm, rdm, blm, geo, etc you FELT like you were playing that class. SMN had you controlling actual summons who fought for you while you balanced your mp and you could summon Alexander, Odin and others for big attackls on a timer. All summons had lore and had to be earned as well instead of just, hey look I guess I can summon Bahamut now! And don't even get me started on how fantastic blu was in xi compared to the boring side show we got here. Could have put a blue vest and red flannel on me and I would have been the meme when I unlocked that thing. I can only imagine how messed up bst will be, esp compared to bst in xi. If it feels even remotely like we are a beast master I will be surprised since I would bet dollars to donuts its just going to be blu 2.0 but with regulators.

No idea how 1 company can have 2 mmos with the same classes and make one's classes feel so good and so true to their name and history, while the other feels just so so bad and redundant not only compared to the other mmo but also the single player games in the same series.

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Originally Posted by GumshoeJump

Even if the current SMN is more of what people think of when they think of a Final Fantasy summon (standing around doing nothing while a big flashy thing happens on screen) I've just really-- never understood what could possibly make that appealing in an MMO. That just doesn't even begin to sound like fun to me. It's something that works way better in a more traditional Final Fantasy where it's turn based. But this is a real time action game-- hotbars regardless-- where you're meant to be running around and actively participating in a fight. Thus a more fitting SMN would be one where the summons stick around, and you fight alongside them. Y'know-- a Pet Job! I felt way more like I was summoning things back when my egis were chosen situationally based on if I needed aoe-damage, single-target damage, or mitigation.

Additionally, as it's a real-time team game with focus on positioning: you'd want summons that are non-intrusive visually. Egis were small and visually distinct from their larger counterparts for a reason. Otherwise, you end up in the situation we're in, where people who don't play SMN frequently complain about SMNs because their summons are too visually loud. It's particularly severe with the current visual design habits of fights-- sometimes you'll just miss things since Titan's massive, square butt is blocking your screen (maybe we shouldn't need to manually set summon sizes clientside). Every summon-- especially because they're recycling the original raid-wide vfx from the trials-- just makes things needlessly harder to see for everyone, including the person playing summoner! It's not good, I don't know why the job design team decided that the flashier, bigger summons were a good idea. It's like a steady stream of RDM LB3s-- my eyes hurt so, so bad.

I mained SMN in StB and ShB! I was obsessed and I played daily just to play it. And I swear I tried really hard to like new SMN-- and I did for the first few months! Before it sunk in just how empty the job is. I don't think RNG or a nebulous collection of more summons is going to fix the fact that pressing a button to make lights happen is fundamentally unengaging after the 10,000th time you've pressed the button. The "traditional ideal of a Summoner" just isn't fun.

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Yep. On paper big summon appear then leave seemed good but in practice not so much. Even worse said things do visually impair.

Egi was much more fun and made summoner feel unique and have good class fantasy. Now it just feels like a regular mage that pretends it summons something. You could have a command to say summons off where the summon models just don't appear and most people wouldn't even notice aside from the mentioned visual impairments. Couldn't do that with egi, it was engaging and requiring you to manage it.

the problem with any major change to smn is that it will likely fall even further to the wayside than it already does. if SMN does change every other job would also have to be updated in similar fashion to ensure raid buffs are up at the same time as our major attacks go off. its cool to throw out ideas of more summons....but where are they fitting? what are they going to do? I guess you could have a 2nd set of summons after the 1 mins ie ramuh leviathan and moggle mog. but they're only going to be doing the same thing as what is happening with titan, garuda and ifrit. 800 potency on summon and then c1000 over a set of time roughly 12 secs.

I wouldnt mind something along the lines of upgrading a summon via an off global button. guaranteeing DHT Crit a la MCH reassemble and suped up astral flow for that specific summon but it has to be one of the three egis.

id very much rather receive better supporting tools. remove physick (they wont) and replace it with an off global carby action based on latest summon. Healing Wind or Vortex Barrier on self if Garuda, Infernal Nail as a dot on the enemy for Ifrit, Geocrush circle aoe or Landslide Line Aoe for Titan. Upgrade Aegis to Ruby Light and make it available regardless if we have a summon up, keep the 20% barrier but have it go party wide like pictos grassa. Even better have it reflect damage like carbys supposed to do and have it do 50 potency per teammate hit automatically. no other caster has to be as proactive currently with mitigation. id like them to keep the summon out for c12secs after major attack and auto attack the enemies but the egis must be small so as not to RUIN other peoples view.

Unfortunately in the current 2 mins rotation we only have 6 seconds to play with which are taken by ruin 3 & 4. i'm all for just binning 4 or just changing ruin 3 to 4...uninspiring i know but we do need that filler gcd jic we do something wrong or a situation demands it looking at the recent raid tier re start of adds phase on M6S or M7S sinister seeds and potentially missing crimson cyclone combo due to tethers.

Yeah I stick by my assessment that if they're serious about 8.0 job reworks, they need to invest the vast vast vaaast majority of dev time not into the classes, but the underlying encounter and even combat systems. Those have to change first, to make room for any form of interesting class design.

That's not really true about Bahamut. You just used Dreadwyrm Trance and waited 15 seconds, or until casting Deathflare, and then summon Bahamut. It only felt rewarding because there was nothing interesting happening in-between. It was still fun, cool and my main, though. It just needs 3 more summons now and Aetherflow abilities to go with it and it would feel like it has a ton of things to do and refreshed. It does more now too than it did in ShB.