More Story like 7.2 Please!

To the devs, please make more story like the MSQ in 7.2!

I loved this patch story, getting lots of interesting character development for Sphene was awesome, I want to see more characters get the spotlight please!

And I loved the Arcadion story too, lots of intriguing mysteries and characters to get invested in, whoever has been writing these stories please have them keep working on the game!

Going to be honest idk whats going on and i probably won't i checked out a long time ago so now i skip cutscenes thankyou SE

You're welcome to skip the story if you like, but you won't have much to provide in these discussions if you don't even know the story. This patch has been a HUGE step up from 7.0 in overall quality both in writing and the quality of cutscenes.

Dawntrail's really good! We don't need to slag it off to congratulate 7.2, 7.2 can just be a good patch with a solidly delivered story. That's its own challenge, and it's a challenge it handled really well in a way that a lot of patches fumble!

We can happily recognize that 7.2 also happens to be perhaps the best single patch we've ever had in terms of story quality across both the MSQ and raid stories. In a little under two months it can make a solid case for being the best patch in all respects, because I think we can make a solid estimate that the Occult Crescent is gonna do a good job stacking up to Eureka and Bozja.

Like... what's the competition going to be for 'best patch'? 5.3? All 7.2 needs to do to beat 5.3 is for the first Occult Crescent zone to beat the Southern Front, and I think it's got a solid case for it; it's sure as hell more colorful. Hell, I'd say it's already beating 5.3 just by virtue of 'doesn't have the absolute worst trial phase transition ever designed'.

I think it's worth remembering in conversations like these that this game is still a live service RPG, and the story will always reflect the fact that it's perpetually a work-in-progress; this seems to have been kind of broadly forgotten since Endwalker, which was an exceptional circumstance. 7.0's story was only 2/3 finished by design, because they need to keep us on the hook for another two years until 8.0; this has been true of every expansion except A Realm Reborn (because they weren't necessarily betting on the game staying online) and Endwalker (because they felt it better served the story to put a bow on that arc right away). Similarly, 7.2 (and all the .2 patches since Heavensward) functions as a springboard of momentum for the conclusion of 7.0's story, so naturally it feels a lot more exciting than the set-ups and clean-ups going on in 7.1. It's a balancing act endemic to any kind of serial media: each installment must have its own distinct narrative arc while also fitting in to the arc of the broader story, which of course leaves a certain margin of error (see the 6.x patches simultaneously being world-ending levels of terror while also feeling like there are no stakes whatsoever).

That said, I will concede that 7.2 felt noticeably more cinematic than FFXIV has felt in a long time, from the scene direction to the dialogue to the actual plot itself. I imagine this is a symptom of a broader pivot that they're trying to pull off with 8.0 on both a narrative and systemic level.

I agree 7.2 was a big improvement over the 7.0 (and maybe 7.1) story. That said...

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Originally Posted by Vallavia

I think it's worth remembering in conversations like these that this game is still a live service RPG, and the story will always reflect the fact that it's perpetually a work-in-progress; this seems to have been kind of broadly forgotten since Endwalker, which was an exceptional circumstance. 7.0's story was only 2/3 finished by design, because they need to keep us on the hook for another two years until 8.0...

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The third act being good doesn't excuse the first two being mediocre at best. It's fine if you like it (I'm fond of more than a few works that are mediocre or even genuinely bad) but the 7.0 story was... just not cutting it for me.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The third act being good doesn't excuse the first two being mediocre at best. It's fine if you like it (I'm fond of more than a few works that are mediocre or even genuinely bad) but the 7.0 story was... just not cutting it for me.

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And it's fine if you don't, but I wasn't really commenting on 7.0's quality in this instance anyhow, nor was I attempting to 'excuse' anything; my contention is that taking 3 hour story segments out of their broader context as an example of what the whole thing should resemble is fallacious. It's no different than the omnipresent mythologizing of Shadowbringers as the pinnacle of XIV's writing quality when it in particular relies so heavily on timing to sell its story.

If I were to comment on the quality however, the latter portion of my post certainly applies to the main Dawntrail story, too: the disparate pieces don't have a unified rising/falling action at all and only tend to connect to each other abstractly and thematically. I didn't find it as calamitously egregious as many, but it's still noticeable. The patches, at least, follow a logical narrative progression from the end of 7.0, but unfortunately I am not at all enchanted with Alexandria and really dislike Sphene (both then and now) so I haven't really invested either way.

This discussion is making me reflect over something... I started playing this game in 5.4, so I really only started this habit of "logging in every patch day to play through the MSQ, then having to wait around 3-4 months for the next patch", in Endwalker patches.

For the people that have been doing this for longer than me, how was the sentiment for other expansions? Like for Heavensward and Stormblood and Shadowbringers, how were the patches' MSQ received? I'm saying this because I only have the perspective of playing through it all sequentially, and I'm not sure if that's affecting my opinions over the story. Like, if I stopped playing 14 for like 2 years and then went back to play all the patch MSQ at once, would I feel differently?

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Originally Posted by Cassar

This discussion is making me reflect over something... I started playing this game in 5.4, so I really only started this habit of "logging in every patch day to play through the MSQ, then having to wait around 3-4 months for the next patch", in Endwalker patches.

For the people that have been doing this for longer than me, how was the sentiment for other expansions? Like for Heavensward and Stormblood and Shadowbringers, how were the patches' MSQ received? I'm saying this because I only have the perspective of playing through it all sequentially, and I'm not sure if that's affecting my opinions over the story. Like, if I stopped playing 14 for like 2 years and then went back to play all the patch MSQ at once, would I feel differently?

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2.55 was well received just due to the cliffhanger that is the end of ARR. Um, Msq wise 3.1 was ok at the time no one really got excited when seeing Ardbert and friends? As we were just glad it came since until it came out and Yoshida hadn't told us yet that the reason for the noticeable longer down time was for the vacation the team people were wondering if 3.0 has bombed so hard due to how rough Gordias savage had been. I don't quite remember exactly how 3.2 was taken but Thancred punching Emmanellain was probably the hight. It was the start of some people's theory that Hydelean had to be bad cause of the artwork for the patch. 3.3 was great cause Final Steps of Faith. I want to say all of 4.0's .1-3 patches for the msq were well received as they brought us one of the most punchable faces in the game in the form of Asahi. Sure, it felt strange to find out that both Gosetsu and Yotsuyu somehow survived the collapse of Doma castle but the build up to Tsukiyomi? And then to get that fight? So good. Now none were a 5.3 and I was amongst the few who thought ShB was going to be another split story expansion of us taking the fight to Garlemald while also dealing with whatever was happening to the A-Team er I mean the main Scions. There was so much hype and excitement until the 1st Fan Fest and teaser trailer for ShB killed imo what should have been a what the hell moment in 4.55 when we get called by the Exarch while fighting Elidibus in Zenos's body. As 4.55 dropped after that 1st fan fest.

Yeah, I remember there was a fair bit of apprehension around the leadup to Shadowbringers, because of how out of left field it seemed... only for it to do really well in a fair few regards.

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Originally Posted by Cassar

For the people that have been doing this for longer than me, how was the sentiment for other expansions? Like for Heavensward and Stormblood and Shadowbringers, how were the patches' MSQ received?

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That's a difficult question to answer, because those patch storylines were 3/5 completing the X.0 storyline and 2/5 setting up the forthcoming expansion.

3.1 - 3.3 was... fairly well received. 3.1 - 3.2 was kind of slow, but 3.3 provided catharsis and wrapped up the Heavensward story with emotional highs. 3.4 just kind of was, while 3.5(.5) was kind of mixed since the Ala Mhigans did not come across as particularly sympathetic at the time.

4.1 was the "just kind of was" patch that hurriedly wrapped the Ala Mhigan storyline. 4.2 - 4.3 were very well received for portraying Yotsuyu (who in 4.0 was quite unsympathetic) with a significant degree of pathos. 4.4 - 4.5 were... kind of out of left field, and while they weren't poorly received there was a lot of uncertainty as to how Shadowbringers would play out.

5.1 - 5.3 were very well received, both for portraying Elidibus with pathos and wrapping up the well-received Shadowbringers plot. 5.4 - 5.5 were somewhat mixed, because they started to wrap up the offscreen war with Garlemald and Fandaniel was initially seen as a step back from the pathos provided by Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

The big patch reception thing that I remember was 5.2 to 5.3, but I would argue that was mostly circumstance; 5.2 was the patch that was live when the pandemic hit, so 5.2 was the patch we were left on for half a year when not just development slowed down, but the whole world did. And I genuinely think it kinda broke people: 5.2 was a pretty bad patch for an extended cliffhanger, people definitely overcomplicated the information we were given in that story because we had nothing better to do. And... broadly speaking it kinda wasn't a good patch; the dungeon was a bit meh, the relic step was just a limp tomestone handover (a really bad thing when we desperately need long-term stuff to do), the Savage tier was one of the more ill-received ones in recent years. Ishgardian Restoration was a highlight, but the actual progress and leaderboard stuff only held for a couple weeks. It would've been fine if it only stood for the expected period, but instead 5.2 had to be 'current content' for twice as long.

5.3 is by no means a slouch, and there's a lot positive to say about it: .3 patch MSQs almost always go pretty hard, the dungeon and trial were both strong (even if I still think the trial phase transition is an absolute debacle), the Puppets' Bunker is generally considered the best Nier raid (it's my personal favorite alliance raid in general), and the Bozjan Southern Front is pretty solid. But... I think it was more 'what people needed at the time' than anything. It's a good patch, but I don't think it'd be seen as the best patch if it released in more typical times and release windows.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

[...]and Fandaniel was initially seen as a step back from the pathos provided by Emet-Selch and Elidibus.

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This, though, I think is one of the more interesting things to look back on. Because yeah, at the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown. (Similar to some of the more dismissive comments you see around Calyx now, although Calyx definitely isn't comedic.) People kinda don't remember that.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches. He was really unpopular at the time, because he was kinda just seen as a distracting, scene-stealing scenery-chewer who was bringing back a storyline that wasn't all that popular; remember that all the reasons anybody likes the Ascians came during Shadowbringers. I want to say Elidibus had the same thing going, I think he was generally considered an 'I guess he's here again' sort of presence until 5.3 basically spent its whole story giving him an actual character, but I admit I can't really speak for audience response around him; he was around before I was playing, and was very much a background conversational detail for a decent period when I was. Like, nobody really talked about him on any level.

Agree.
7.2 was more like the better patches of this game regarding the story.

Sphene felt like a character (imo one of the best for me personally right now) the WoL actually mattered and Calyx seems to be an interesting villain.

It was high time Wuk Lamat got a much needed break from the spotlight.
The whole highlight of this game is that the WoL has an important spot in the story and is directly interacted with.
They aren’t always the MC but they do slide into that position often (Zenos, Emet Selch’s relation with us, us taking on the Heavensward and Niddhog, going back in time or being a reincarnation of Azem) and outside of it they need to interact with others like with Sphene.

7.1 was already a step in the right direction from 7.0 minus Koanas sudden Cow friendship and the “well” placed exposition NPC.

I think that’s what the game needs and what it does best. Interesting characters that grow on you BECAUSE they interact with the player character instead of a glorified NPC, that interact with you and not Y’shtola calling someone she doesn’t even know instead of us because it’s the creators pet.
Characters that have actual depths and go into more philosophical themes instead of pure shonen the entire time.

More of 7.2, less of 7.0 please.
Thank you and good job.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

The whole highlight of this game is that the WoL has an important spot in the story and is directly interacted with.

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I'm sorry, but the only thing the Warrior of Light does across all of 7.2 is walk into traps and fight robots. And if we only count bosses, the traps outnumber the robots. I genuinely struggle to think of a story where the WoL was less impactful as a character than this one; I feel like there's a case to be made that things would've turned out better if we'd stayed home!

It's fine to call 7.2 a good patch, it's probably already my favorite patch, but the WoL cannot possibly be considered an active component as to why.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm sorry, but the only thing the Warrior of Light does across all of 7.2 is walk into traps and fight robots. And if we only count bosses, the traps outnumber the robots. I genuinely struggle to think of a story where the WoL was less impactful as a character than this one; I feel like there's a case to be made that things would've turned out better if we'd stayed home!

It's fine to call 7.2 a good patch, it's probably already my favorite patch, but the WoL cannot possibly be considered an active component as to why.

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Right I forgot it was us who fought Knight-Robot-Lady or who was the target of Calyx or who interacted with Sphene or who called all the scions or for whom the whole dungeon was even there.
The WoL had more importance than in 7.0 and 7.1 and more than in several other patches that’s what I am saying.
I didn’t expect the whole patch to be centered around us, that never was the case but it sure had a focus on us and we shared the spotlight with Sphene.

If you struggle to think of a story where the WoL was less impactful then I would point to the last patch and the MSQ before that.

Whatever. I don’t discuss in this forum anymore.
I posted my opinion on the patch.
You can have another opinion and it’s all good and fine and you can post it.
I am just tired of finding nitpicky negatives in a good story for the sake of it.
I criticize this game when there are things to criticize and I praise the devs if there are things to praise and for me the story was good and the involvement of the WoL great.

Have a good day.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

... [A]t the time of the patches, Fandaniel wasn't looked on very fondly, whereas now he's considered maybe the breakout character of the Endwalker leadup and story arc. In the Shadowbringers patches, before he got his whole story, he was seen as a bit of a thinly-written clown.

...but here's the thing even less people remember: so was Emet-Selch during Stormblood's patches.

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... ish. The initial response to Emet-Selch was a bit lukewarm, but by no means dismissive. On the one hand you had the people curious about the meaning behind his words and actions, and on the other you had the people who wanted their anti-Hydaelyn views vindicated. He provided both by the end of Shadowbringers MSQ (5.0) on top of a significant amount of pathos, which is why he's so fondly remembered (if you ask me).

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

I'm sorry, but the only thing the Warrior of Light does across all of 7.2 is walk into traps and fight robots.

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In a role reversal from 7.0, we spent a lot of time talking and bonding with the "real" Sphene. Combine that with her being surprisingly well written in contrast to what else has come out of Dawntrail and the spotlight being on her and the Player Character, and it's no surprise 7.2's gotten a warmer reception. Having the NPCs talk to us instead of being almost a nonentity is a huge improvement and no doubt contributed to Sphene's instant popularity; it works pretty well, as both Emet-Selch and Exarch G'raha demonstrated.

(Even "Simulant" Sphene is more interested in the PC than her "frail, fleshy" counterpart on account of having the key Calyx needs, the latter of whom virtually ignores his ostensible Queen.)

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Fandaniel (Hermes / Amon) actually got something of a negative reception, at least on this forum (where I engage in most discussions about this game). I like him, and I'm sure other people do, but that's on account of my understanding his depression and feelings of "otherness" because of it (I have a personality disorder); dedicated fans of the Ancients did not like him for exposing flaws in their supposedly utopian civilization.

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Yeah, there's your problem: this forum is a deeply unrepresentative corner of the game's community, to the point where it's a laughing stock in other places. It's sort of an internet-wide thing; 'the official forums for a thing' have been generally considered to be one of the worst places to discuss said thing since... I want to say the early 2010s? Right around when Reddit and Discord really got rolling, and made community-run spaces a lot easier to find and maintain.

In fact, Endwalker made these forums' difference form the central community abundantly clear, and Fandaniel was one of the clearest ways to see it: he was really popular overall, to the point where the developers actually got surprised--paraphrasing an interview here, they were going for 'complicated but people will like him more than don't', but were shooting for a 60/40 split; they feel like the result was somewhere around 80/20. He did well in community polls I can find from the time, too; he was always the least popular Ancient, but that's mostly because Emet, Hyth, and Venat (who is the absolute clearest example of what I'm talking about) were overwhelmingly dominant. Hermes, meanwhile, was instead beating Alphinaud and Urianger; far from a slouch.

In that case I'd broadly put that down to the fact that most 'dedicated fans of the Ancients' aren't actually the sorts of fans that you've seen here, that were moralizing about it and claiming objective goods and evils far from what the game put forward; that's actually a vast minority of that community. Most Ancient fans just see them as people in a story they like; in their case, a grand tragedy. Hermes and Venat aren't hated for destroying paradise; they're beloved for being very big parts of that story, being tragic figures in their own right.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, there's your problem: this forum is a deeply unrepresentative corner of the game's community, to the point where it's a laughing stock in other places. It's sort of an internet-wide thing; 'the official forums for a thing' have been generally considered to be one of the worst places to discuss said thing since... I want to say the early 2010s? Right around when Reddit and Discord really got rolling, and made community-run spaces a lot easier to find and maintain.

In fact, Endwalker made these forums' difference form the central community abundantly clear, and Fandaniel was one of the clearest ways to see it: he was really popular overall, to the point where the developers actually got surprised--paraphrasing an interview here, they were going for 'complicated but people will like him more than don't', but were shooting for a 60/40 split; they feel like the result was somewhere around 80/20. He did well in community polls I can find from the time, too; he was always the least popular Ancient, but that's mostly because Emet, Hyth, and Venat (who is the absolute clearest example of what I'm talking about) were overwhelmingly dominant. Hermes, meanwhile, was instead beating Alphinaud and Urianger; far from a slouch.

In that case I'd broadly put that down to the fact that most 'dedicated fans of the Ancients' aren't actually the sorts of fans that you've seen here, that were moralizing about it and claiming objective goods and evils far from what the game put forward; that's actually a vast minority of that community. Most Ancient fans just see them as people in a story they like; in their case, a grand tragedy. Hermes and Venat aren't hated for destroying paradise; they're beloved for being very big parts of that story, being tragic figures in their own right.

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The general fourm is a laughing stock not this particular sub. Sadly reddit is a really bad place to discuss the lore as most people really don't pay attention to the story or skip unvoiced cutscenes among other things. Thier dislike of Hermes echoes the things said here and comes from simply not reading.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

The general fourm is a laughing stock not this particular sub. Sadly reddit is a really bad place to discuss the lore as most people really don't pay attention to the story or skip unvoiced cutscenes among other things. Thier dislike of Hermes echoes the things said here and comes from simply not reading.

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Oh, yeah, absolutely. In all honesty I'm mainly here because, while other parts of the game do have generally taken-seriously, solid central community hubs (i.e. high-end gameplay has The Balance, crafting has Teamcraft), there just... isn't a similar place for lore and story discussion. That space never really solidified, so this subforum is one of the only places you can air and hear extended thoughts about that stuff, even if it's a poor place for it.

And yeah, I believe I did at one point describe the core problems of that sort of discussion here and in Reddit as 'overthinking vs. underthinking'. Here, you'll find someone who hasn't realized they're three degrees deep into their own speculation and have a completely insane long-shot take as a result. Meanwhile over on Reddit you'll see someone ask 'is the WoL a dragon' because they played one Dragoon quest and barely read any of it.

I'm glad to see people enjoying 7.2 after all the negativity around Dawntrail. I feel like the cutscenes were well staged and felt more...dynamic? than XIV scenes usually are.

I do feel a bit disconnected from the community in that I don't feel particularly attached to real Sphene-I don't have a problem with her but I don't find her any more compelling than Endless Sphene before her. From reading comments I guess this disconnect comes from me actually enjoying the WoL not being a centre of attention in Dawntrail so I'm not reacting strongly to NPCs focusing on them again now.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

From reading comments I guess this disconnect comes from me actually enjoying the WoL not being a centre of attention in Dawntrail so I'm not reacting strongly to NPCs focusing on them again now.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but it's not so much "We weren't the center of attention" and more "We had virtually no role to play in this story." Heavensward and Stormblood both do not center on the PC; but they do still have a role in the story as the deuteragonist (though an argument for them being the tritagonist in Heavensward can be made). Dawntrail reduces them (after 2 expansions as the protagonist) to just being Wuk Lamat's hanger-on, contributing nothing other than beating up whatever's in her way until the story's only got minutes to midnight (and even then Lamaty'i steals their thunder with seconds on the clock).

7.2 isn't really about the PC; it's about Sphene, but it works better because it's not extended like Wuk Lamat's arc was. The PC is really just a sounding board for her, but because we're already informed about what sort of person she is from her Endless replica it's easier to connect with her (since this is Sphene without the behavioral modifications forcing her to antagonize us).

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Originally Posted by Cilia

Dawntrail reduces them (after 2 expansions as the protagonist) to just being Wuk Lamat's hanger-on, contributing nothing other than beating up whatever's in her way until the story's only got minutes to midnight (and even then Lamaty'i steals their thunder with seconds on the clock).

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Personally I would argue that you're greatly simplifying and tinting this in a negative like, but that this choice is to the story's benefit, because the WoL is an absolute dud of a character as far as... y'know, character goes. That's not necessarily a negative, it's just not what they're designed for, so of course they're bad at it; Link's bad at carrying dramatic scenes too, but we don't really expect him to. Really, the only things they can give the WoL in terms of big character beats and showoff scenes is cool fight moments, and engine limitations mean those don't work well, either.

Hell, I'd say that the single greatest sell of the WoL's power, reputation and energy was actually brought on by Dawntrail: When they just walk slowly towards Bakool Ja Ja, past mercenaries that dare not risk a shot, not even drawing a weapon, and Bakool immediately starts regretting every choice that led to this moment. That one scene, more than anything Shadowbringers or Endwalker tried on much larger scales, sells the WoL as a badass with a history, and it's genuinely a really hard scene to pull off. You fumble the character's reputation, Bakool's response, even just the walking animation, and it doesn't sell. Hell, even just doing that same trick a second time too quickly makes it fall over; Doctor Who learned that one. But done successfully, that scene embodies everything the WoL can and should bring to a story.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Personally I would argue that you're greatly simplifying and tinting this in a negative like, but that this choice is to the story's benefit, because the WoL is an absolute dud of a character as far as... y'know, character goes. That's not necessarily a negative, it's just not what they're designed for, so of course they're bad at it; Link's bad at carrying dramatic scenes too, but we don't really expect him to. Really, the only things they can give the WoL in terms of big character beats and showoff scenes is cool fight moments, and engine limitations mean those don't work well, either.

Hell, I'd say that the single greatest sell of the WoL's power, reputation and energy was actually brought on by Dawntrail: When they just walk slowly towards Bakool Ja Ja, past mercenaries that dare not risk a shot, not even drawing a weapon, and Bakool immediately starts regretting every choice that led to this moment. That one scene, more than anything Shadowbringers or Endwalker tried on much larger scales, sells the WoL as a badass with a history, and it's genuinely a really hard scene to pull off. You fumble the character's reputation, Bakool's response, even just the walking animation, and it doesn't sell. Hell, even just doing that same trick a second time too quickly makes it fall over; Doctor Who learned that one. But done successfully, that scene embodies everything the WoL can and should bring to a story.

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Pretty much. All throughout Dawntrail anybody worth a damn takes one look at us and goes "Watch out for that one. They're different. They aren't like the others. Nobody here knows our story, our legacy but real recognizes real that typical warriors can sense each other type deal.

The fist clenches seem to have been replaced with off-camera teardrops.

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Originally Posted by thegreatonemal

Pretty much. All throughout Dawntrail anybody worth a damn takes one look at us and goes "Watch out for that one. They're different. They aren't like the others. Nobody here knows our story, our legacy but real recognizes real that typical warriors can sense each other type deal.

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Hell, the only characters that confirmably don't recognize and respect our power are the Passage of the Unbound, which is a strong piece of evidence towards the whole group being egotistical blowhards hiding behind claims of revolution.

If you're actually, genuinely trying to improve Ishgard, you'd recognize the person who killed the heads of both sides of the Dragonsong War, and publicly defeated two enormous dragons on the same bridge. The fact that they don't recognize us is a quiet sign that they're ignorant to the situation they're interfering in.