I'm a MACHINIST, not a MAN

"Hey! What's up! Yeah, I'm uh, I'm gonna have to go ahead and just-"

https://i.imgur.com/n3HxYPg.png

"Hmm? Oh, nothing. That was nothing. Lemme-"

https://i.imgur.com/Lz5ShiZ.png

"Nah that, that was your imagination. Just ignore that. Just, it'll be fine, okay?"

https://i.imgur.com/HVgq70i.png
. . . Additional Effect: Increases target's damage taken by 20% while under the effect of Analysis
. . . Duration: 6s

"I really feel like you're overreacting. Like, honestly uh, its like, y'know? Okay? let's just calm down, and-"

https://i.imgur.com/Hxri5B3.png


"Hope that helps."


Machinists how are we liking the changes, and how long before they put us back on life support?
Non-machinists are welcome to reply with their experiences.

Technically buffing Spite up to 90k native potency once you have BH5, which gives a final numbers of 63k on squishies and 45k on tanks.

I seem to recall from a video that, when targeted by Spite, the targeted player gets a visual cue? Like a gunsight symbol? If so I guess it only appears on full enemy VFX. Anyone confirm?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I seem to recall from a video that, when targeted by Spite, the targeted player gets a visual cue? Like a gunsight symbol? If so I guess it only appears on full enemy VFX. Anyone confirm?

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There is a visual cue in the reticle, however it will not show up with limited effects.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

...They made changes? *Squints at patch notes.* Oh, they increased Marksman's Spite damage. I guess that's nice, but it feels kind of irrelevant when every other ranged job can mini-snipe now too after a few seconds from further away with Guard pierce, or how nearly every role got some way to reduce damage via buff or debuff anyway except Melee DPS ...who got an even scarier ranged ability in Smite compared to Eagle Eye Shot.

Reminds me of that time they dropped our Drill damage right when they gave some other jobs Guard pierce too, or that time they took away Heavy on Bioblaster while giving everyone else more CC options, or that time they double-downed on the Wildfire meme.

Oh wow, you mean that was back in 7.1? Man, and here I thought Square-Enix only hated MCH in PVE, lol.

Sarcasm aside, my experience with MCH has not changed dramatically since the last "major" PVP patch outside of one new role action to spam on cooldown.

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MCH is in a very strong spot for large-scale right now, where with a bit of soaring or battlehigh it can 100-0 any other rDPS, via bravery and analysis drill/anchor/chainsaw into LB, that doesn't have active mitigation/shields up, or doesn't quickly guard. I am left scratching my head at your comment here and in other threads that MCH changes are irrelevant. If you are spamming your role action on cooldown, it may be best to re-evaluate how you are using it and playing the job as a whole. If you're specifically talking about Crystalline Conflict, then yeah the bump in spite damage probably isn't a huge change.

Anyway, MCH is in quite the strong spot now. I cackle maniacally every time I gun down an enemy DNC or AST from a premade, and it even feels pretty good to bring to queue syncs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WutWut

There is a visual cue in the reticle, however it will not show up with limited effects.

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Many thanks.

There are other examples of this like the WHM beam (I think).

So we have a situation on "limited effects" where small, useful telegraphs are removed, but completely useless, large flashy ones are retained.

Is there a list anywhere of which fall into each category?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WutWut

If you are spamming your role action on cooldown, it may be best to re-evaluate how you are using it and playing the job as a whole.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

That's assuming I run into anyone dumb enough to let me combo into them like that. It's the same reason I never got much use out of the constant push towards using Wildfire/Blazing Shot outside of Shatter; Nobody is going to just stand there and let me unload even part of the clip.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aidorouge

I used to make calculated attacks, now I just spray and pray including Eager Eye Shot, because continuing to play it like I did before doesn't work anymore with all of the current changes, and they clearly want MCH to play some other way that I'm just not grasping.

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Part of why I'm so happy with MCH (in frontline) is because they gave us back the damage. They want you more engaged in fights and not hiding too often. Your reward is BH5 early, which means a full return of that calculated attack you mentioned (if thats what you meant). Early on, don't focus on getting solo kills. Focus on doing damage and spreading that damage out so you can get assists and build BH. You'll have to adapt and learn when to follow up/secure kills versus when to do more spread damage for your team to capitalize, but don't overthink it. Spray and pray for assists, get your BH5, then eventually you'll realize you don't want to sit in the back getting individual solo kills on noob roulette players. You'll have the skill to time sniping BH5 enemy premade players who get over confident. BH5 comes fastttt.

If you time your use of role action, keep your map open, and watch spacing, you can become a killing machine. 15-0-30 with 2 mil damage isn't unexpected for MCH anymore.

Also, no one is really "looking" for your LB marker on them, or even expecting it. You said it yourself, getting shot doesn't even scare most jobs anymore, and if people are quick with the guard, take advantage of your LB distance. Wait for the guard timing to be up before popping. Having more than half health isn't enough to scare a squishy into healing usually, they'll finish a cast then maybe heal or shield, happens all the time. The fights are chaotic enough for you to get the combo off plenty, otherwise machinists wouldn't be top 10 kills and damage so frequently. My biggest issue this patch would have been the BH changes and bringing back secure (hate it, lol) but after playing it, I'm just enjoying MCH as best I can.

If you're stuck with bioblaster, I'm not sure if you're popping sprint after using it and before? You dont always need a good hit, sometimes its just good to cycle it, pop it on a tank thats too forward or someone diving, on someone in a barrier, get rid of it. There's so many opportunities to use it. Makes me think you're distancing yourself like an AST when you should be more middle of the crowd. I'm almost frontlining sometimes (badum tsss).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Many thanks.

There are other examples of this like the WHM beam (I think).

So we have a situation on "limited effects" where small, useful telegraphs are removed, but completely useless, large flashy ones are retained.

Is there a list anywhere of which fall into each category?

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This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

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I've never used Guard much and I suspect this is a reason why.

Haven't been able to test out the changes much due to the insane lagfest that FL has turned into for me this early into the patch, but from what practice I've been able to do, it does feel a bit generous a boost to your hardest hitting moves. In FL you almost always play like an opportunist in order to gain BH, usually against other ranged since anything melee tends to be way too durable to bother wasting time on.

So it's a plus when considering the fast highs that everyone's gaining now, doesn't really change the gameplay loop much at all for MCH other than one more button. I do know this patch is highlighting just how short a distance 25y is though. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

This is why you can't seriously play pvp without full effects, which is unfortunately pretty cancer in FL (I only use limited there). A lot of LBs won't show, like spite, contradance, etc. Probably why nobody reacts to spite with guard either in FL (I certainly can't with limited either). Whoever is crazy enough or has the fortitude to play with full fx in FL, especially when going melee, mad props to you either way.

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I'd say Guard is 90% of the time useless when it comes to Spite, by the time the bubble animation even starts the LB's damage is already locked in, it's what makes MCH one of the more ridiculous classes to fight when they climb in BH, though without much durability. That said, compared to the 6.1 days of random 3% chance to execute with one of their regular empowered skills (Chainsaw I think it was?), it's a a lot more balanced out.

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Novani

I'd say Guard is 90% of the time useless when it comes to Spite, by the time the bubble animation even starts the LB's damage is already locked in

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https://media.tenor.com/lhQp-eAIUSwAAAAC/false.gif

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cidel

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.



https://media.tenor.com/lhQp-eAIUSwAAAAC/false.gif

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

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With limited effects, you don't see the crosshairs at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cidel

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

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That change has only helped people who already had plenty of time, and this is across all modes. Yes, latency is a factor, a big factor in fact. But if this can occur consistently even on a server where the rating of connection is supposedly excellent? Yeah ok, why not. Far be it for me to dispute it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

With limited effects, you don't see the crosshairs at all.

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That should be fixed. I wouldn't know, I don't have the effects off of the default setting. That's as bad as not seeing PvE stack markers. Maybe I should swap to MCH for invisible LB kills if a significant population has effects set to limited...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Novani

That change has only helped people who already had plenty of time, and this is across all modes. Yes, latency is a factor, a big factor in fact. But if this can occur consistently even on a server where the rating of connection is supposedly excellent? Yeah ok, why not. Far be it for me to dispute it.

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Well, actually, no. The change finally made Spite reactable and guardable to anyone. Up until then, since as far back as the implementation of everyone getting their own LBs, getting targeted with Spite meant you only had two seconds to heal to as close as full as possible or mitigate/shield, because Guarding afterwards really was useless. Spite's snapshot was untouched in the execution/effect activation shortenings this past 7.2 patch. People were complaining about MCH'S LB's reactability once 7.1 dropped:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Post

MCH:
Even though we all have more HP and MCH's limit break stayed at 36,000, you can just Guard when you see the crosshairs on you. I'm pretty sure this means MCH's garbage now.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akimitsu

MCH: The LB suffers from the new hit detection more than any other LB.

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Or even praising the change in regards to how the LB used to be:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sheidyn

- A MCH LBing you without warning, and no matter what you do you cannot react, and take the damage for free for no reason because you somehow were not reading the MCH mind at the time, getting an easy kill on you

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So yes, Spite is still very much reactable to; no less than when it was made so in 7.1. If latency is your issue (which you've implied as much), then I imagine Guard in general isn't as reliable for you in other various situations as well (or if you play in limited effects and the LB is invisible). I can't discredit how useless Guard is for you, but it definitely is a valid answer to MCH's Spite at this present time (again, if you aren't using Limited effects).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cidel

With Bravery being introduced, MCH is arguably the single biggest threat to anyone's Battle High level. A lot of people who play MCH are just @$$ with it, but you get a good player who can actually mouse-over targets and pick them out in a crowd; the thing is now an executioner if it wants you dead. Bravery actually gives Spite the impact of getting head-shotted by a sniper rifle in any FPS.

Naturally, the MCH's Battle High level is a factor in how much prep has to go into the target before Spite, but on most ranged dps/healers, an Analyzed Drill/Anchor/Chainsaw into Spite is probably a guaranteed kill absent of Guard or mitigations like shields. And it's no joke for melee either; I've seen a BH5 MNK get taken-out by a BH5 MCH's Spite after only getting the buffed chainsaw's defense break.



https://media.tenor.com/lhQp-eAIUSwAAAAC/false.gif

While this may have been true prior to the giant initial damage snapshot changes in 7.1(?)(where the crosshairs meant the damage had already been applied, and was waiting for the animation to resolve, meaning it was impossible to react with Guard to), after their changes to snapshotting various attacks creating damage delays (even with the toning-down of them in 7.2), Spite is reasonably reactable to with Guard, and is still your best defense against it. If it's hitting you even after your bubble is activated, it must be your own latency or you're reacting too late when the crosshair animation is about to vanish.

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Do the combo as OP posted and you'll snipe whoever you want that is squishy enough. Sniping BH5 players has never been so reliable. I think it's good that you need to be wary of machinists now, they were a joke for a long while.
And it's not like you can do this at any point, you need the LB and chain saw to be safe. So any MCH roaming and staying in chain saw for a little while -targetting specific people or whatnot- is suspicious now. Which is good in my opinion, and much less impactful than its overall damage anyway (which is high now) so it feels ok.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeoBertolaso

"Hey! What's up! Yeah, I'm uh, I'm gonna have to go ahead and just-"

https://i.imgur.com/n3HxYPg.png

"Hmm? Oh, nothing. That was nothing. Lemme-"

https://i.imgur.com/Lz5ShiZ.png

"Nah that, that was your imagination. Just ignore that. Just, it'll be fine, okay?"

https://i.imgur.com/HVgq70i.png
. . . Additional Effect: Increases target's damage taken by 20% while under the effect of Analysis
. . . Duration: 6s

"I really feel like you're overreacting. Like, honestly uh, its like, y'know? Okay? let's just calm down, and-"

https://i.imgur.com/Hxri5B3.png


"Hope that helps."


Machinists how are we liking the changes, and how long before they put us back on life support?
Non-machinists are welcome to reply with their experiences.

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The very first FL match I played in months was on MCH and I got 17 kills
Seems good to me