Interrupted LBs into oblivion

Some of you may remember that before 7.1 hit, it was possible, albeit extremely rare, to completely stun or lock someone out of their LB while them still spending it without any effect. For example, it was possible to stun a Zantetsuken at the right moment and have it spend the LB bar while doing literally nothing. A bit more rare, it was also possible to do it on a MCH LB, especially with miracle of nature. In those cases, it was very rare because of the window for the stun to land was extremely tiny, we're probably speaking in literal microseconds. It's also possible that those LBs had bad interactions going on the side with abilities like Miracle of Nature, I don't know.

Well, you'll be pleased to hear it, after the 7.1 changes and the hit registration rework.. this is still happening! Had my first Spite interrupted by a Miracle of Nature today. Even more annoying than before because it's just pure luck with the crowd control delays now. Not that it was any less pure luck before, but still.

Can something be done about this? Is this even intended or do we actually need to open bug reports? There is no way on earth something like this is actually designed to happen... right?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Some of you may remember that before 7.1 hit, it was possible, albeit extremely rare, to completely stun or lock someone out of their LB while them still spending it without any effect. For example, it was possible to stun a Zantetsuken at the right moment and have it spend the LB bar while doing literally nothing. A bit more rare, it was also possible to do it on a MCH LB, especially with miracle of nature. In those cases, it was very rare because of the window for the stun to land was extremely tiny, we're probably speaking in literal microseconds. It's also possible that those LBs had bad interactions going on the side with abilities like Miracle of Nature, I don't know.

Well, you'll be pleased to hear it, after the 7.1 changes and the hit registration rework.. this is still happening! Had my first Spite interrupted by a Miracle of Nature today. Even more annoying than before because it's just pure luck with the crowd control delays now. Not that it was any less pure luck before, but still.

Can something be done about this? Is this even intended or do we actually need to open bug reports? There is no way on earth something like this is actually designed to happen... right?

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Are there not multiple skills that can go on CD having "activated but not activated"? The added chaos of FL often makes it difficult to know what has happened, and I admit I'm not interested enough at this point to sift through battle logs. And while I am no longer on Discord, I imagine there are a whole host of timing/interrupt oddities that are being exploited by the professionals.

This sounds incredibly aggravating.

The way LBs are handled is a source of endless frustration for me. Not only do some LBs take so long that casting them anywhere else than in Narnia is really just suicide with special effects, but if you miraculously survive your lengthy animation but then die at the last millisecond your entire LB is canceled and you still lose your entire LB bar without reaping a single effect.

In some cases the risk-reward balance is completely whack.

I'm not advocating for them to remove strategic burst denial but it should still be fair. If the enemy team is supposed to have a reasonable chance to outplay/cancel my LB then I should also have a reasonable chance to cast it at the site of the battle without turning into a helpless piñata for the enemy team.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Are there not multiple skills that can go on CD having "activated but not activated"? The added chaos of FL often makes it difficult to know what has happened, and I admit I'm not interested enough at this point to sift through battle logs. And while I am no longer on Discord, I imagine there are a whole host of timing/interrupt oddities that are being exploited by the professionals.

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Yeah it happens to normal skills too. Very often your animation will play out fully even though the effect is canceled but since the animation played out it also counts as the skill having been used. The result: Cooldown. It happens when the enemy dies to somebody else before you finish your cast and also when you die. I don't know if it also happens when you are stunned/silenced.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Yeah it happens to normal skills too. Very often your animation will play out fully even though the effect is canceled but since the animation played out it also counts as the skill having been used. The result: Cooldown. It happens when the enemy dies to somebody else before you finish your cast and also when you die. I don't know if it also happens when you are stunned/silenced.

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This is actually the most irritating for me and is a major flaw in the hit detection IMO. Actually interested how the padders handle this.

Like from the point of view of trying to win, it's natural to target (haha "target") enemies with dropping health bars. If the padding goal of the day is to maximize damage, you'll go for enemies at full health.

For the rest of us, it means that optimizing damage application and K/A involves predicting which enemies will be at fractional health when your attack actually lands, in a FL skirmish that may involve 40+ players.

This is, of course, impossible.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

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For the rest of us, it means that optimizing damage application and K/A involves predicting which enemies will be at fractional health when your attack actually lands, in a FL skirmish that may involve 40+ players.

This is, of course, impossible.

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This already drives me crazy in CC and there it's only five people. FL sounds like an absolute headache.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

This already drives me crazy in CC and there it's only five people. FL sounds like an absolute headache.

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One consequence is that AoEs rule over single-target stuff, simply because you'll probably hit something that's still alive.

The DRG LB has always had the risk of automatically failing if you went up in the air with enough DoTs or at the right snap shot time. You die while flying and lose the entire extremely slow charging bar (particularly in FLs) for an LB that has plenty of counters.

You can also be charmed by a DNC or, worse, feared by a RPR, thus losing control of your movement and being unable to land prematurely.

Since this has always been a thing and that it could be understood as another layer of skill, that of being able to know when to use it so it's not cancelled, I'm sure the developers consider it working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

The DRG LB has always had the risk of automatically failing if you went up in the air with enough DoTs or at the right snap shot time. You die while flying and lose the entire extremely slow charging bar (particularly in FLs) for an LB that has plenty of counters.

You can also be charmed by a DNC or, worse, feared by a RPR, thus losing control of your movement and being unable to land prematurely.

Since this has always been a thing and that it could be understood as another layer of skill, that of being able to know when to use it so it's not cancelled, I'm sure the developers consider it working as intended.

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Not disagreeing, but that particular phrase has a spotty history in FL (PLD for example).

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Not disagreeing, but that particular phrase has a spotty history in FL (PLD for example).

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I doubt that PLDs removing a fundamental mechanic from point capping was intended.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like for the DRG LB to make me invulnerable while in the air, at least to CC, but since it works the way it does I must be mindful when executing it.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

I doubt that PLDs removing a fundamental mechanic from point capping was intended.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like for the DRG LB to make me invulnerable while in the air, at least to CC, but since it works the way it does I must be mindful when executing it.

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Seem to recall devs claimed it was working as intended a few months before they fixed it.

But sure, working around certain oddities can be okay. Still not a fan of the general mushiness though.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Are there not multiple skills that can go on CD having "activated but not activated"? The added chaos of FL often makes it difficult to know what has happened, and I admit I'm not interested enough at this point to sift through battle logs. And while I am no longer on Discord, I imagine there are a whole host of timing/interrupt oddities that are being exploited by the professionals.

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There is skills ghosting in pve for sure, and perhaps it happens in pvp with a lot of latency I don't know. But so far I have never really had to complain about this in pvp except for this.
In this case I seriously suspect the same usual suspect, Miracle of Nature. I cant say for sure it's possible with stuns. MoN had a lot more leeway for it to happen before 7.1 than actual stuns, perhaps due to the character transformation.

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Originally Posted by Aco505

You can also be charmed by a DNC or, worse, feared by a RPR, thus losing control of your movement and being unable to land prematurely.

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I can imagine it being problematic with a RPR LB, but in the case of DNC, it's suicide to pop a Contradance when there is an enemy DRG with Skyshatter nearby. You'll just die after your LB as there is not enough time to get the heck out, often the DRG will even crash back down right on top of your head before you can even refresh the charm. Either way I consider this as LB counters, it's literally the same when using most other LBs, you need to check what LBs are ready on the enemy side anyway.

Yeah I remember having my Reaper LB getting deleted by a miracle of nature. Has only happened once to me though.

MoN has caused my MNK lb to give me the animation lock but prevent the skill from going through or deal damage, it only happened a few times, perhaps 3 ?
It also has happened when I have played PLD and cast Hallowed Ground, heard the skill go off and the first part of the skill vfx where the circle aoe particles begin to expand from your position but then I got transformed and it essentially throttled the cast and I had to attempt to re-cast it - died shortly after realising what had happened.

Both occasions have been before 7.1 though, I did have a phase where I found it was incredibly disruptive in function but that was around the time it was 25yalms in range before they nerfed it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Is this even intended or do we actually need to open bug reports? There is no way on earth something like this is actually designed to happen... right?

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Based on my experience, the game seems to do a swift check on if you're capable of completing an action right before it goes off. That's why actions don't go through when you're stunned or turned into a critter.

The most common version of this occurrence is a SAM pressing Zantetsuken and dying mid-animation, which drains their LB bar (because the game confirmed the LB casted) and also doesn't do any damage (because the game registered that you're dead and are unable to do damage).

In short, no, it's probably not designed to be like this but it functions like this because of how the game does its checking.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Based on my experience, the game seems to do a swift check on if you're capable of completing an action right before it goes off. That's why actions don't go through when you're stunned or turned into a critter.

The most common version of this occurrence is a SAM pressing Zantetsuken and dying mid-animation, which drains their LB bar (because the game confirmed the LB casted) and also doesn't do any damage (because the game registered that you're dead and are unable to do damage).

In short, no, it's probably not designed to be like this but it functions like this because of how the game does its checking.

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Dying before a LB resolves is pretty common and depends whether or not you're still alive after the animation and resolution delay. Stuns and MoN seem to specifically achieve the same result only under extremely tiny, uncommon circumstances (and I have yet to find a stun actually doing this, so far I've only seen MoN).

Also worthy of note but actually working against MoN there, MoN is such a disruptive ability server side that it introduces extreme wonkiness on actions that should lock you in place. For instance, if you get MoN-ed during a Contradance, it will allow you to move around while casting it where it shouldn't be possible. It's very funky how this ability seems to break half the game. Edit: this works on Meteodrive and Spite too, and I haven't tried it but it would make sense that it also works on Chocobastion, Mesotes and other long ass LBs.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Dying before a LB resolves is pretty common and depends whether or not you're still alive after the animation and resolution delay. Stuns and MoN seem to specifically achieve the same result only under extremely tiny, uncommon circumstances (and I have yet to find a stun actually doing this, so far I've only seen MoN).

Also worthy of note but actually working against MoN there, MoN is such a disruptive ability server side that it introduces extreme wonkiness on actions that should lock you in place. For instance, if you get MoN-ed during a Contradance, it will allow you to move around while casting it where it shouldn't be possible. It's very funky how this ability seems to break half the game. Edit: this works on Meteodrive and Spite too, and I haven't tried it but it would make sense that it also works on Chocobastion, Mesotes and other long ass LBs.

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I think the jankiness can be attributed to MoN replacing your character model entirely rather than applying a status effect? Reloading your entire character model during an animation would probably cause strange effects.

If such a purely aesthetic effect is the cause of so much wonkiness I wish they'd just turn it into a normal silence with some visual effects (and an MP drain if they insist).
Put a funny creature on our head like when ninjas mess up their jutsus, make some kind creature icon appear above our character or add some special effects like tiny mandragoras floating around us.
It might not be as quirky but at least it might be less janky.

More generally, it would be nice if they emphasized gameplay over aesthetics.