What even was that capstone questline?

Firstly, the positives: the instanced fight was fun, and the concept of someone denied freedom becoming an extremist is not a bad idea. You can make a really gripping, tragic story with that.

So what in the seven hells happened? The writing ranged from nonsensical to insulting, more than once flashing back to things that were explained in detail less than five minutes beforehand. I'd say that it's like the writing is for five year olds, only that it also feels like it was written BY five year olds! Every character ranges from indistinguishably bland (I dare anyone to pick them apart without the names in the text boxes) to seemingly brain-damaged. This expansion just keeps managing to make me skip cutscenes in a game where I hadn't skipped a single one before, even on alts.

Where did the wires get crossed? How does "Lighthearted" mean "absolutely devoid of charm, intelligence or quality"? I get that the concept was to make them comedic villains, but do you know who pulled that off? Hildibrand! I laughed out loud so many times at the utter insanity of the Hildibrand questlines, and that's not even limiting it to the animations!

In fact, for as much as the team apparently complains about having no ideas for Hildibrand, the short quest we've gotten so far has been some of the least bad writing in the entire expansion, sharing that dubious honour with the Arcadion quests. Why are those the only decent writing in this entire traincrash, Yoshi P? Is NO ONE doing quality control at all anymore? Does ANYONE even do a final check in any of this?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!

I died of second-hand embarrassment from the pose alone. Also title is weird, Sweet Justice.

The capstone questline as well as the role quests as a whole confuse me.

The overall premise of it had promise. Like you said, the idea of someone who decided to go against traditions and make their own path gets punished and feels wronged, thus they want to take revenge on society. It's honestly a cool bit of insight into Viera lore too. I like the idea of it, but they just screwed it up so badly. There is a lot of potential there for a good story that a lot of people might be able to relate to and sympathize with the antagonist. For a game that has had villains range from people who will do anything to liberate their homeland from oppressors to people simply trying to bring back their friends and family they really dropped the ball here.

I can't quite recall what motives the other antagonists had, the only one I vaguely remember was the Elezen lady who fell asleep while on duty and was punished for it. Then developed a fear of sleep, I guess that's an okay concept. And I can't remember the others except for the Lalafell guy and Hyur Lady who I believe just wanted to cause chaos with no real motive.

The issue I felt was that the writers have no clue if they want the questline to be goofy and silly or for us to take it all seriously. We get a almost endearing chat with Apyaahi, get to know them a little bit. It even plays sappy music like with a lot of other characters, so they want to get players to care. Then they make there be wacky "Don't eat that food!" dialogue. It's just odd. They should make it one or the other (preferably serious) not that weird mix of both. It makes the pacing feel off.

The solo duty IMO was okay I suppose. I was hoping for a duty to take place on the bridge and I guess I shouldn't be surprised it's just a long hallway. I definitely think the boss could've used a few more attacks rather the...two maybe three attacks it has. The music shift halfway through was definitely unwarranted though, I'm not sure if they really thought that it was such an EPIC and COOL moment that it called for that music. (The dawntrail trailer music)

But yea, I am overall let down by the role quests and capstone story line. There was a lot of potential there that was just wasted. Good ideas that seem to have been used as toilet paper in a sense.

We can only hope that things improve on the writing side of things. I enjoyed the Raid storyline and now I'm fearful for how they might screw it up come 7.2.

Let's not encourage beating over the dead horse that is hildi.

I actually really enjoyed this quest. I like that Apyaahi is an idiot, I like that she does the wrong things for the right reasons. I especially like that people try to explain to her how the real world works and I like that it gets completely over her head. It's a pretty realistic personality, because she is flawed and cringe. Makes a lot of sense for someone who grew up in an entirely different society and struggles to adjust to a new reality. I am glad it's not this power-of-friendship-fixes-everything-crap again.

The humor is for sure not for everyone. I think it was okay.

I did not enjoy the role quests, though, they were way too long, repetitive and just lame. Apyaahi should have been involved to really build this whole story. The role quests feel like filler.

The message of the quest left, and how my character's part in the story was handled -- especially with some of the dialog options left a really bad taste in my mouth. Please don't do something like this again.

Did they really have to narrow down our dialogue choices to

“People like you don’t deserve to be free”

And

“I will never be on your side”

Like I get it’s a Japanese RPG but this rigid adherence to the flawed state and barely disguised incrementalism is getting really tiring

I thought it was alright. Not great, but not bad either.

Maybe a poor match for role quests, though.

Missed opportunity to be a villain for a day.

Wait people still expect good writing from the team that brought us Wuk Wuk Binks's wacky adventures?

I don't like the how the end of the questline had Apyaahi make some legitimate points only for it to segway into a joke about her not wanting to pay for a room. The fact that it played funny music while she was talking about how she had her belongings stolen while she was living on the streets (which is something that happens to homeless people in real life) felt rather mean-spirited.

Sorry for getting political or whatever, but it kind of felt like the writer for this questline was trying to make an anarchist character while not understanding what that ideology actually means. If the intention was to make her a LARPer, then it would be funnier to me, but I don't think that was the intention here.

I skipped everything that is skippable. Looks like I didn't miss much. I've already lost faith in their storytelling/writing this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Did they really have to narrow down our dialogue choices to

“People like you don’t deserve to be free”

And

“I will never be on your side”

Like I get it’s a Japanese RPG but this rigid adherence to the flawed state and barely disguised incrementalism is getting really tiring

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I miss the time we were able to choose "..." as an dialogue options.
Sometime i wish we got an equivalent of Jack from "Stranger of Paradise" in FF14 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2V1VKlFSDM

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

I don't like the how the end of the questline had Apyaahi make some legitimate points only for it to segway into a joke about her not wanting to pay for a room. The fact that it played funny music while she was talking about how she had her belongings stolen while she was living on the streets (which is something that happens to homeless people in real life) felt rather mean-spirited.

Sorry for getting political or whatever, but it kind of felt like the writer for this questline was trying to make an anarchist character while not understanding what that ideology actually means. If the intention was to make her a LARPer, then it would be funnier to me, but I don't think that was the intention here.

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To me, it felt like the writer was about to make something interesting develop, then an editor came in and said "nah, just wrap this up as soon as possible."

I'd say I enjoyed the quest, for the little 20 minute ditty that it was, but I felt like it suffered from extreme tonal dissonance at the end

Getting to see the absurd recruiting process followed by an honest conversation with their leader that reveals her very understandable goals that makes you empathize with the character, that was all good.

Where it fell apart was having the wol, our character, completely disregard that only have dialog options that are both basically "perish, criminal scum."
If you wanted us to empathize with the character, why wasn't that reflected in the dialog choices? Then you have the main theme start rocking out during the fight which feels completely unearned because none of the returning characters even do anything aside from the viera archer. And then it all wraps up by being "oh she's stupid, send her to prison" but not before her little mushroom companion phases out which I think was supposed to be sad? Like maybe? I really don't know, because it happened, and the angle almost looked like it was framed to set up an emotional scene, but then it was like, nope nope, start the slapstick scene.

It just felt all wrong at the end. Such a missed landing

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Originally Posted by Cenobia

Firstly, the positives: the instanced fight was fun, and the concept of someone denied freedom becoming an extremist is not a bad idea. You can make a really gripping, tragic story with that.

So what in the seven hells happened? The writing ranged from nonsensical to insulting, more than once flashing back to things that were explained in detail less than five minutes beforehand. I'd say that it's like the writing is for five year olds, only that it also feels like it was written BY five year olds! Every character ranges from indistinguishably bland (I dare anyone to pick them apart without the names in the text boxes) to seemingly brain-damaged. This expansion just keeps managing to make me skip cutscenes in a game where I hadn't skipped a single one before, even on alts.

Where did the wires get crossed? How does "Lighthearted" mean "absolutely devoid of charm, intelligence or quality"? I get that the concept was to make them comedic villains, but do you know who pulled that off? Hildibrand! I laughed out loud so many times at the utter insanity of the Hildibrand questlines, and that's not even limiting it to the animations!

In fact, for as much as the team apparently complains about having no ideas for Hildibrand, the short quest we've gotten so far has been some of the least bad writing in the entire expansion, sharing that dubious honour with the Arcadion quests. Why are those the only decent writing in this entire traincrash, Yoshi P? Is NO ONE doing quality control at all anymore? Does ANYONE even do a final check in any of this?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here!

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im angry at this quest line.. because i am trying to like them, and i liked her a lot.. and then they made her out like some selfish dumb teenager.. they build her up so well and then just make a fool of her

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Originally Posted by Velthice

Then you have the main theme start rocking out during the fight which feels completely unearned because none of the returning characters even do anything aside from the viera archer.

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i cringed when it played... same kinda cringe that smile inspired.. it felt so forced and meant to stir up some kind of fighting spirit..
dont even get me started on the WOL.. i am starting to dislike my character.. or what feels like a clone of him.. he wouldn't do this.. who is this charlatan wearing the face of my WOL. even in this 1 scene in the desert he got upset he couldn't have the powerful totem.. and im like.. you are supposed to be the hero.. why the hell do you want this? were you not the man who pressed on against emet even when you had literally nothing left in you...

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Originally Posted by Cenobia

Firstly, the positives: the instanced fight was fun

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Gods I hated the finale of the instanced fight. I was doing it as a tank, cause my power fantasy involves being the one on the front in an epic sword clashing duel. Why was i not allowed to keep aggro on the enemies? Its such a small thing, and I am legit mad about it.

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Where did the wires get crossed? How does "Lighthearted" mean "absolutely devoid of charm, intelligence or quality"? I get that the concept was to make them comedic villains, but do you know who pulled that off? Hildibrand! I laughed out loud so many times at the utter insanity of the Hildibrand questlines, and that's not even limiting it to the animations!

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The wires got crossed somewhere after 6.1. Really, the decline started before that, but 6.1 was a noticeable drop in writing quality imho. I had that chalked up to CS3 putting all their eggs in the basket that is Dawntrail, to be honest.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Did they really have to narrow down our dialogue choices to

“People like you don’t deserve to be free”
And
“I will never be on your side”

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Yes they did. Not even an empathic option of "you are doing it wrong for the right reasons", or a challenging "you are not seeking freedom". The entire premise had so much potential, and it was all squandered.

Last part felt kind of uncomfortable. The second set of Unbound leaders. All they did was talk, then they were arrested. For what? Speaking out loud? I didn't see them in any of the past quests, so these people probably just got recruited and turned up. And then they get arbitrarily arrested out of association.

Meanwhile all I wanted out of the capstone was all the tacos Br'uk Evu promised us, it has disappointed even those of us who like this goofy stuff :(

Thinking about it, everything about this final quest just feels... incredibly off.

Our villain is someone who was kicked out of her village, and was unable to work with the customs of the world beyond. After being wronged and her home destroyed by the authorities, she resorted to extremism. Hells, many of the things she said about Eorzeas nations do ring true. Quite frankly, a lot of the things Apyaahi said do resonate well, and are not out of place in this world.

How come we (both the ingame characters and we, the players) can forgive and redeem Golbez, Fordola, even Yotsuyu (up to a part) and fucking Gaius, but when it comes to Apyaahi, the only solution is jail and chains? All while being played for laughs with that weird song in the background. It just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

I can scarcely think of a jRPG protagonist less suited to being the vector of thinly veiled political preaching about the benefits of incrementalism than the WOL considering it’s basically the antithesis of basically every shred of their lore up until this point

They completely missed the “either tell an important story with levity or tell an creative story with humour” memo but regardless everything about this entire quest is just completely tone deaf and seriously reads like “Japanese company doesn’t understand that the entire world doesn’t follow incrementalism nor do they view it as a positive thing so we will make a whole joke about it”

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Originally Posted by ovIm

Thinking about it, everything about this final quest just feels... incredibly off.

Our villain is someone who was kicked out of her village, and was unable to work with the customs of the world beyond. After being wronged and her home destroyed by the authorities, she resorted to extremism. Hells, many of the things she said about Eorzeas nations do ring true. Quite frankly, a lot of the things Apyaahi said do resonate well, and are not out of place in this world.

How come we (both the ingame characters and we, the players) can forgive and redeem Golbez, Fordola, even Yotsuyu (up to a part) and fucking Gaius, but when it comes to Apyaahi, the only solution is jail and chains? All while being played for laughs with that weird song in the background. It just leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

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Incredibly off is completely right. If the conclusion of the quest is "she bad, lock her up," why provide a back story evoking sympathy? Compared to those characters you mention, she's a saint. Maybe this makes more sense through a JP lens?

When Apyaahi was presenting her position, I really wanted a dialog option: "that's a really good point, fancy discussing Bakunin over a beer?"

https://i.imgur.com/6Qj2iF6.png

I still dont understand why I had to spy their plan, while the boss is inviting me upstairs to discuss the mission anyway. Why did I camouflage myself as her? Where does this make sense?

I cba to finish the quest, I got the emote and won't touch this questline again.

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Originally Posted by MediocreIndigo

I don't like the how the end of the questline had Apyaahi make some legitimate points only for it to segway into a joke about her not wanting to pay for a room. The fact that it played funny music while she was talking about how she had her belongings stolen while she was living on the streets (which is something that happens to homeless people in real life) felt rather mean-spirited.

Sorry for getting political or whatever, but it kind of felt like the writer for this questline was trying to make an anarchist character while not understanding what that ideology actually means. If the intention was to make her a LARPer, then it would be funnier to me, but I don't think that was the intention here.

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The whole series of quests felt mean spirited to me. The caster one with the kid thinking he's a superhero or the healer one as well. We're obviously dealing with people not well in their head for a lot of them, and this one felt yet more of the same crap. I felt ten times more empathy for their pathetic clown asses than for the Tulliyolal side that just felt like bullies.

At least they didn't disrobe the villain once beaten to finish humiliating her like they did with the superhero one... Is there a cultural wall I'm not getting past or what? All of this questline is borderline offensive to trudge through.


Edit: thinking more about it it seems to me a bad caricature of Japan's obsession about whacking anything that stands out, comprehend here: the "villains". Meanwhile I secretly wished I could side with them as a radical anarchist to mount a coup and atomize the ruling system in the worst places like Ul'dah or Limsa, that's how this whole questline radicalized me if anything.

Remember when the WoL was a character that tried to understand all sites and unite them and form bonds even if people were not the best of “human” beings and had flaws but still were redeemable ? Was like last expansion……… but let’s just talk about tacos and peace ok ??? Pretty please. Like you have a serious character that gives good points about the problems in society (it’s nothing new for us because we had to deal with that stuff for a while) and they play it like a complete joke and treat the character like comic relief and then throw here into jail (she is pretty much a saint in comparison to all villains we redeemed before)

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Originally Posted by Valence

The whole series of quests felt mean spirited to me. The caster one with the kid thinking he's a superhero or the healer one as well. We're obviously dealing with people not well in their head for a lot of them, and this one felt yet more of the same crap. I felt ten times more empathy for their pathetic clown asses than for the Tulliyolal side that just felt like bullies.

At least they didn't disrobe the villain once beaten to finish humiliating her like they did with the superhero one...

Is there a cultural wall I'm not getting past or what? All of this questline is borderline offensive to trudge through.

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Well they promised us a vacation. So they thought we would vacate our critical thinking skills and not question this snot writing I assume. It’s just dawntrail in general has completely brain flee and non sensibly writing doesn’t matter if it’s MSQ or side quest (I really enjoy the glazing of wuk in so many side quests like the 24 man) . For me dawntrail feels like they tried Gen Z Humor for the first time and it’s just so super cringe inducing that it is mind boggling why they did that instead of staying more serious.

A charismatic leader gets people to join their movement with vague notions of "freedom" and "tyranny of the state", empowering these people, which just turns them into the worst versions of themselves, becoming the very tyrants and pain givers they claim to want to stop. When their motives are found out, at first it seems for reasons that you can be sympathetic for, but end up being completely selfish and self-serving and kind of stupid. The leader themselves seem to make some good points, only to also be completely self-serving and selfish, and even a little bit stupid and unhinged, even comically so, if there wasn't a very real danger of innocent people getting hurt. They simply want to do whatever they please without consequences.

...

...yes. What a completely unbelievable, ridiculous plot. This could never, ever happen.

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Originally Posted by RaideDuku

...yes. What a completely unbelievable, ridiculous plot. This could never, ever happen.

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Nobody is saying the idea for the plot is bad. If anything, it had incredible potential. People are complaining about the way it was told, because instead of any introspection or examining their motives, all the characters go "LOL, villains dumb!" Any potential of actually grappling with their ideals, which are flawed, but coming from a place that might be relatable, is completely dismissed in favor of cartoon sound effects and a wol, who up until this point has gone out of their way to offer an olive branch to their foes, refusing to even acknowledge that they might have a point, or are even just flat out right, but going about it in the worst way possible

A couple in this thread have brought it up but it really does feel like the writer almost made up too good a point and then had to steer in a completely opposite direction to justify a conflict.

I'm not convinced that's the intent though. Considering the "humour", I think Apyaahi is more like that anime character that will give some harsh but very real outlook on a government's treatment of its people to justify why there's nothing wrong with them dine-and-dashing. Which is ... fine, I guess. It just sucks that this commentary and setup is being wasted on a joke when really, you could have an entire expansion dedicated to an antagonist with those same motivations.

Also gotta echo how wrong that WoL dialogue option on the bridge felt. No "You don't have to do this" or "This won't end how you think it will" option, instead our WoL answers like they already knows the punchline of the plot.

Splintered tribes having artifacts or great power should have been the basic premise of this whole expansion, not played for laugh-track level jokes from a bad sitcom. They could have been similar to the tsukumogami, with an explanation that the aether on the whole content was abnormally wild and unbalanced, giving easy rise to these phenomenons (and making it hard to invade, since the wilderness is hard to bear without these artifacts). Then we could have echo flashback to Galool Ja Ja and his party discovering that the repeated use of these artifacts in intertribal war that was common at the time, is what is causing the aether to fluctuate even more, with extreme situations giving rise to the Tural Vidraal. And the source of this imbalance was a certain golden ruin found under the jungle. With no immediate way to fix the actual source of the problem, Galool Ja Ja set out to unite the continent and mediate any disputes, thus significantly reducing any chances for new Tural Vidraal to appear due to the usage of these artifacts. Instead of being a generic anime swordsman, viper lore and gameplay could have been to basically collect the imbalanced forms of aether in dual wield mode, then combining both swords to reach a critical mass, releasing the stored aether in a form of controlled bursts. This could have also framed Cahciua's whole venture. Gameplay wise, this could have provided the backdrop for overworld fates, maybe even tickets to special, 1v1 difficult encounters that would provide some exclusive currency.

But oh well, cheap laugh track jokes it is ...

I'd also like to add to the sentiment here. The conclusion to the quest just came off as weirdly cruel to Apyaahi - and more importantly outright dismissive of her perspective, which feels like it goes counter to the main themes of the whole expansion. Dawntrail is meant to be a story about how its important to try and understand others without judgement, isn't it?

She's not incorrect about class disparity (especially in places like Ul'dah or Hingashi), or that just because something is law doesn't mean that its right. But we're given no option to acknowedge that part of her perspective, instead flatly condeming her in entirety. It feels especially weird considering how most of the main role quests had their associated NPC taking a lesson from the dark reflections of themselves they saw in their respective members of the Unbound - but no, nothing like that here.

I feel like there were a lot of stronger ways to portray her as misguided, too. Instead of exploring the consequences of her goal of "tearing down nations" upon the people she claims to help, or pointing out the hypocrisy of her idolising and empowering people who frequently hamper the freedoms of others, the writer chose "oh she's just lazy and hardheaded" and played it for laughs. Particularly mean-spirited laughs, at that - you're gonna make light of state violence against the homeless? Really?

It feels like a poorly-written strawman argument that refuses to actually address the questions it presents. I think Dawntrail gets disproportionate flak for its problems, but this role quest capstone is some of the most ham-fisted writing in the entire game. Profoundly disappointed.

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Originally Posted by Jau

It feels like a poorly-written strawman argument that refuses to actually address the questions it presents. I think Dawntrail gets disproportionate flak for its problems, but this role quest capstone is some of the most ham-fisted writing in the entire game. Profoundly disappointed.

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Excellent summary.

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Originally Posted by Jau

I'd also like to add to the sentiment here. The conclusion to the quest just came off as weirdly cruel to Apyaahi - and more importantly outright dismissive of her perspective, which feels like it goes counter to the main themes of the whole expansion. Dawntrail is meant to be a story about how its important to try and understand others without judgement, isn't it?

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The people behind Mamook's Blessed eugenics program get a pass, 'we understand your plight, and what pushed you to do this.' But be a misguided rule breaker with class structure grievances, "Villains like you deserve no freedom."

Yuck.

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Originally Posted by Jau

I'd also like to add to the sentiment here. The conclusion to the quest just came off as weirdly cruel to Apyaahi - and more importantly outright dismissive of her perspective, which feels like it goes counter to the main themes of the whole expansion. Dawntrail is meant to be a story about how its important to try and understand others without judgement, isn't it?

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To me it felt like it goes against the main themes of the entire game. How did we go from being a hero of the people to an enforcer who relishes locking people up. The Warrior of Light has always led with empathy and understanding-- one of our special powers is to understand others no matter what language they speak -- and suddenly we want to throw someone in jail. Especially considering we've allowed others to redeem themselves who have actually harmed others. Apyaahi, herself hasn't been shown to actually harm anyone.

I actually really enjoyed most of the role quests despite the tonal whiplash when they decide to bring out the clown music but this was just too much for me with the way it portrayed the Warrior of Light.

Given that our Allied Society quest this time around is

helping someone set up a tourist agency and help make the local culture profitable

and the MSQ has us

helping industrialists usher local wildlife out of the way

, I feel like a weird vibeshift must have overtaken the Square Enix writing room.

I can kind of see what they were going for- basically a Saturday morning cartoon vibe- but in the end the writing of the quest felt so mean-spirited and out of character that I'm frankly pretty disgusted with it. The comedy attempts of the final quest fell completely flat and the moral of the story adds nothing to the game. There wasn't even any interesting lore in these quests. The individual role quests did all end in fun solo duties- but the duty at the finale offered no challenge or interesting mechanics.

A pity that DT has had its writing all over the place; it's like whoever was driving the bus got up and left it while it was still driving, and the results of DT are from the panicked passengers struggling to fight for control of the wheel, the accelerator, and the brakes.

This bus won't stop even when we reach 8.0. It's going to be a very bumpy year.

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Originally Posted by Wasselin

To me it felt like it goes against the main themes of the entire game. How did we go from being a hero of the people to an enforcer who relishes locking people up. The Warrior of Light has always led with empathy and understanding-- one of our special powers is to understand others no matter what language they speak -- and suddenly we want to throw someone in jail. Especially considering we've allowed others to redeem themselves who have actually harmed others. Apyaahi, herself hasn't been shown to actually harm anyone.

I actually really enjoyed most of the role quests despite the tonal whiplash when they decide to bring out the clown music but this was just too much for me with the way it portrayed the Warrior of Light.

Given that our Allied Society quest this time around is

helping someone set up a tourist agency and help make the local culture profitable

and the MSQ has us

helping industrialists usher local wildlife out of the way

, I feel like a weird vibeshift must have overtaken the Square Enix writing room.

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I agree, and what's particularly troubling is that this shift is manifesting itself in a significant change in the principles and character of the WoL.

We are being rewritten from an amiable and empathetic adventurer who will happily find someone's lost goat, to a supercharged mercenary enforcing the diktats of an absolute monarchy.

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Originally Posted by Jau

Particularly mean-spirited laughs, at that - you're gonna make light of state violence against the homeless? Really?

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I do hope this doesn't have anything to do with how Japan treats its homeless (look into it if you're curious, it's enlightening).

she just remind me of the woke people when well normal person try to explain something xx)