About DAWNTRAIL SMN and future

First of all I want to clarify that I have been playing since shadowbringers and I want to clarify that there is a big difference between the SMN of shadowbringers and the current SMN.

The changes are not bad if they are well done, for example as main SMN I love having Ifrit, titan and garuda in the rotation, instead of spaming ruin 3. However there is a big flaw in this rework, bahamut and fenix, both basically do the same thing and now we have 2 bahamuts that do the same thing, something has to change for 8.0.

when you think of SMN, a wide variety of summons come to mind, not only bahamut (alexander and odin for example), i think most of the main SMN want variety, we want each summon to do something different, for example garuda can use dots, titan a mitigator and ifrit a full dps.

We don't want more bahamut's, we want variety in the rotation not always the same, what is the purpose of solar bahamut if the normal bahamut can do the same damage if he gets buffed? Instead of bahamut they could put ODIN or Alexander.

We've fought 44 Primals across all main and side content, and SMN has yet to see anything beyond the original trio, Bahamut, and Phoenix. The devs are clearly not interested in incorporating any of the others, so I have long since given up and am expecting the 110 capstone to be a second Phoenix.

A hundred bucks says they regret introducing SMN in the first place and would delete it if they could do so without breaking the game.

They seem to have had good intentions adding this other version of Bahamut.

But it just wasn't a good decision or what anyone was looking for. Everyone was talking about other possibilities such as Ramuh, Shiva or Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

We've fought 44 Primals across all main and side content, and SMN has yet to see anything beyond the original trio, Bahamut, and Phoenix. The devs are clearly not interested in incorporating any of the others, so I have long since given up and am expecting the 110 capstone to be a second Phoenix.

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New version of Bahamut is pretty obviously a placeholder for Haedelyn, but somewhere along the way they realise it would be too spoilery for everyone. This is the one move that deserved lore building and a job quest.

I’m still trying to figure out if square is happy with EW SMN or if they regret it

Admittedly no job really got good fundamental changes in DT but SMN really seemed like the one where they redid it and 5 seconds later they are already out of ideas for how to make it better given how damn rigid it is despite how easy it is

I wonder if they actually have any idea or if they kinda regret nuking old SMN when it would have been easy to do a half rework they could draw more space in the rotation out of without locking them into modern rigid SMN

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

they are already out of ideas for how to make it better given how damn rigid it is despite how easy it is

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This describes every single job.

Three big things I think will make SMN play better is 1. more summons, 2. summons are more mechanically diverse, and 3. cast times on the actual summon buttons.

FFX has my favorite iteration of Summoners (and the designs of the summons themselves) and it will forever remain that way; needless to say FFXIV's interpretation of them is rather disappointing to me by comparison. Not a fan of how the egis look or how limited the glamour options are with them, and I don't like the rigid rotation of cycling through each summon.

If I were re-designing the job I would merge it with PCT (PCT not already being a thing in this scenario) and sprinkle in a bit of BLU. The basis of PCT and ACN/SMN's magic is already turning ink/paint to life
Make its "rotation" more freeform like PCT, with the motifs corresponding to different primals. Like a BLU's spell loadout someone can pick and choose what kind of primals they want to use for their actions for a nice bit of customization (and these choices are purely aesthetic. And of course you could either have an egi or appropriately-downsized primal following you around.

I'm not gonna pretend I know anything about job design, that's just what sounds nice to me.

For now at the very least I'd just want a Proto-Carbuncle following me around...

I've posted it before but I think it would be cool to get the other 3 core primals introduced in ARR
It would give Summoner every element (even if elements don't mean much these days)

Upon using Bahamut:
Ifrit - Fire
Titan - Earth
Garuda - Wind

then upon using Phoenix:
Leviathan - Water
Ramuh - Lightning
Shiva - Ice

though I'm not sure what would be fitting beyond that
Solar Bahamut is a weird choice
Final Fantasy has so many different variations of Bahamut that you could make summoner use exclusively him if they really wanted to

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

Upon using Bahamut:
Ifrit - Fire
Titan - Earth
Garuda - Wind

then upon using Phoenix:
Leviathan - Water
Ramuh - Lightning
Shiva - Ice

though I'm not sure what would be fitting beyond that

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Odin

We don't really need more than these most iconc FF summons. That's what people want and everything more would just distract from the summons the people know and would enjoy to use.

Hi! SMN main here since Heavensward.

ShB SMN was so awful to play that I raided as RDM for that expansion. I think there's a better balance to be found between the oGCD vomit of 5.0, the 2%-less-scuffed mess of 5.1, and the braindead rotation SMN currently has. I like that current SMN lets you do the "chunks" of your rotation in different orders, so you can move them around based on what movement is or isn't happening in the near future. Unfortunately, that's basically the only instance of strategic planning or forethought that SMN requires, which is one of the two core traits that defines the caster DPS role. (The other is... y'know, cast times. Which have widely been going the way of the dodo since 6.0 as well but that's a subject for a different thread.)

I like the "different batches of summons depending on which big summon just got used" idea in post 10. I get why Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda got grouped together, but that doesn't match the astral/umbral divide that's part of what defines 14's elements. You'd need to group Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh together with one summon and Garuda, Leviathan, and Titan together with the other to match that. And good luck getting that to make sense to someone still doing the pre-50 job quests.

Personally, I'd be in favor of nixing the Bahamut/Phoenix/Solar Bahamut divide entirely and just making them all the same button with different /egiglamour skins you unlock from doing content. Like, full clear Coils for a Phoenix skin, full clear Alexander for Alexander of course, full clear the Omega series for Omega, Eden Prime for the Eden series... what would Pandaemonium offer? Phoinix? Athena? A crowd of Ascians chanting "PAN-DAE-MO-NIUM" on cast? ...maybe Proto Carbuncle?

In a perfect world, you'd have a minor summon for most every primal and mythical creature we fight in this game and we'd pick and choose which ones to bring to a particular fight as if they were Pokemon, based on what happens in the fight and what movement is (or isn't) required during any given section. But the problem with that is that the playerbase would very quickly math out what combination of summons was the highest DPS and post it on the Balance. And like magic, using literally any other summons at all becomes grounds for getting kicked and blacklisted from PF until you use "the correct" summons.

Which is probably one of the main reasons SE hasn't bothered changing anything with SMN beyond making the class not awful to play. Now it's just boring. Which is better than awful, but not by much.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

We've fought 44 Primals across all main and side content, and SMN has yet to see anything beyond the original trio, Bahamut, and Phoenix. The devs are clearly not interested in incorporating any of the others, so I have long since given up and am expecting the 110 capstone to be a second Phoenix.

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If you noticed how the 90's summon animations, attack, and disappear animations are basically lifted from Heaven on High's magicite (and where it was placed elsewhere) you'd be scratching your head why they haven't at least added Odin into the mix of summons. But they can't bring themselves to include any actual other primals, it seems.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m still trying to figure out if square is happy with EW SMN or if they regret it...

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EW summoner is a blend of FF16's Clive's "imbue yourself with primal energy and unleash attacks" mixed with bits of what previously remained with the previous incarnations of summoner and order of bahamut to phoenix. The previous versions with the egi's still have some pathing issue that sends it to head straight for the target when it should no longer do that.

No doubts they have some regrets for how things turned out. But they are holding out on giving more than just 5 summons. Picto's subtractive pallete mode shows how you could keep switching to at least another 5 different summons if they kept following the "1, 2, 3, bahamut, 1 , 2 , 3 , phoenix" rotation. Would they ever introduce something like that? Highly doubtful.
When EW change also happened, I don't know who thought it'd be a good idea to make one of the raid fights, proto-carbuncle, have all the DOTs and other stuff that you used to be able to do. It was like a slap in the face and rubbing your face in it. Hence I'll never do that raid series.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

We've fought 44 Primals across all main and side content, and SMN has yet to see anything beyond the original trio, Bahamut, and Phoenix. The devs are clearly not interested in incorporating any of the others, so I have long since given up and am expecting the 110 capstone to be a second Phoenix.

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lol still holding out hope that for our “dark” summon we get Shinryu! But as a 16 fan, I’d settle for Odin.

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Originally Posted by CVXIV

I’ve posted it before but I think it would be cool to get the other 3 core primals introduced in ARR
It would give Summoner every element (even if elements don't mean much these days)

Upon using Bahamut:
Ifrit - Fire Titan - Earth Garuda - Wind

then upon using Phoenix:
Leviathan - Water Ramuh - Lightning Shiva - Ice

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This would be along the lines of my ideal, although as said above, I think we’ll get a “dark” summon to balance with Sol Bahamut. And I’d assume that’s the next thing we get, even if to me it would have been way more logical to add in the other 3 elements first!

The idea I liked best (the DPS forum has a few variations on this theme) would add Levi, Shiva, Ramuh as gem summons and whatever they choose for the dark summon as the 4th demi, and then the elements would need to be split into their astral/umbral teams, with a button similar to Subtractive Palette or Transpose that lets us choose which team we start with. One, it would give SMN the full range of elements. Two, it would add the duality of astral/umbral to SMN, which would bring it in line with BLM’s astral/umbral phases, PCT’s palettes and RDM’s white/black split. Nice and balanced, right? lol

Honestly though, I’d be ecstatic if we just got Levi, Shiva and Ramuh as gem summons, even without any fancy astral/umbral mechanics. Give me my full cast of elements, rainbow of gems and rainbow of Carby colors!

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Originally Posted by Tint

Odin

We don't really need more than these most iconc FF summons. That's what people want and everything more would just distract from the summons the people know and would enjoy to use.

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Honestly yeah I love Odin, he's my favorite summon and I'm pretty disappointed how he's implemented in ff14, not having much of a presence
The special fate is pretty cool at least

Should Levi, Ramuh, and Shiva be added, what would their gems be? Aquamarine, Amethyst, Sapphire?

Also what could their Gem Shine and Astral Flow moves be?

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

This would be along the lines of my ideal, although as said above, I think we’ll get a “dark” summon to balance with Sol Bahamut. And I’d assume that’s the next thing we get, even if to me it would have been way more logical to add in the other 3 elements first!

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My assumption is that they designed and named Sol/Solar Bahamut to be the light to normal Bahamut's dark, and it just got the name to juxtapose the Meracydian Bahamut being imprisoned in what was thought to be a moon. That would mean no new dark counterpart.

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Originally Posted by ArchlordPie

Personally, I'd be in favor of nixing the Bahamut/Phoenix/Solar Bahamut divide entirely and just making them all the same button with different /egiglamour skins you unlock from doing content. Like, full clear Coils for a Phoenix skin, full clear Alexander for Alexander of course, full clear the Omega series for Omega, Eden Prime for the Eden series... what would Pandaemonium offer? Phoinix? Athena? A crowd of Ascians chanting "PAN-DAE-MO-NIUM" on cast? ...maybe Proto Carbuncle?

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Instead of making it strictly tied to Raid series, it could be tied to all sorts of contents, like maybe we could get the Twelve(like all 12, individually) from Myths of the Realm, Enkidu from Hildibrand, so on.

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

Instead of making it strictly tied to Raid series, it could be tied to all sorts of contents, like maybe we could get the Twelve(like all 12, individually) from Myths of the Realm, Enkidu from Hildibrand, so on.

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That's where that train of thought was going, yeah. I just had Normal Raids on my mind at the time I made that post. Most dungeon and trial bosses could technically work for this too with little more effort than adding spawn and despawn animations and tying their actual casts to the yell/roar animation every boss already seems to do in their introduction cutscenes anyway.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Should Levi, Ramuh, and Shiva be added, what would their gems be? Aquamarine, Amethyst, Sapphire?

Also what could their Gem Shine and Astral Flow moves be?

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My fanfiction versions of Ramuh, Leviathan, and Shiva would for Ramuh, you would cast a series of lightning spells to charge up an instant finishing spell, Leviathan would be all movement attacks (like En Evant, but damages everything in you path), and Shiva your character would turn into their version of Shiva, and it would be a full melee phase.

current smn has no future, doesn't matter how many pointless bahamut reskins you can add

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Should Levi, Ramuh, and Shiva be added, what would their gems be? Aquamarine, Amethyst, Sapphire?

Also what could their Gem Shine and Astral Flow moves be?

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I like Aquamarine, Amethyst and Sapphire… I’ve seen some suggest Diamond for Shiva, and I get it, but her color is always blue, whether it’s her dress or even her skin tone. Most of the spells have a blue color tint to them as well. But blue is my favorite color and I really want a Sapphire Carby, so I might be biased! lol Aquamarine and Amethyst are just kind of a given for the other two.

Some ideas for spells just going off of skills used in the Extreme trials… they would need some modification to be player attacks instead of boss attacks, but it could definitely be done. I’m just throwing out ideas, and trying to avoid skills already given to BLU if memory serves.

Levi - Grand Fall or Whirlpool (could be a DOT puddle similar to Slipstream), maybe Scale Darts for the instant casts
Shiva - Icicle Impact for instant casts and of course, have to have Diamond Dust (maybe granting Dreams of Ice as a personal or party damage up buff!)
Ramuh - Lightning Orbs for instant casts and Judgement Bolt

In my wish list version, since you’d be able to choose which team you start out with, I’d have the potencies of each team roughly equivalent, making the choice of one team over another being mainly what kind of mechanics you’ll be dealing with at any given point of a fight. So it still has a basic, easily accessible rotation, but offers a little more micro-management and planning complexity for those who enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by ArchlordPie

I like the "different batches of summons depending on which big summon just got used" idea in post 10. I get why Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda got grouped together, but that doesn't match the astral/umbral divide that's part of what defines 14's elements. You'd need to group Ifrit, Shiva, and Ramuh together with one summon and Garuda, Leviathan, and Titan together with the other to match that. And good luck getting that to make sense to someone still doing the pre-50 job quests.

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Honestly I wonder if this is why they’ve avoided it all this time. It can be done, and they’ve done similar before (remember old AST cards anyone? lol), but I’m sure it’s probably a pain to have to revise the earlier levels and possibly job quests. I’m sure most of us would be fine with the gems getting rearranged if we could finally have more of them! They’ve created a good base rotation of demi, 3 gems, repeat, but they need to give us more gem summons instead of just adding demis and keeping the gem rotation exactly the same the whole way through.

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In a perfect world, you'd have a minor summon for most every primal and mythical creature we fight in this game and we'd pick and choose which ones to bring to a particular fight as if they were Pokemon, based on what happens in the fight and what movement is (or isn't) required during any given section. But the problem with that is that the playerbase would very quickly math out what combination of summons was the highest DPS and post it on the Balance. And like magic, using literally any other summons at all becomes grounds for getting kicked and blacklisted from PF until you use "the correct" summons.

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Yeah that’s why I’d keep them in the teams of three gems, and have each team roughly equivalent in terms of damage output, but make the skills themselves be the deciding factor in which team you want to use at any given time.

It’s funny that despite being pretty much unchanged from Endwalker, Summoner somehow still manages to feel worse to play lol. I guess because it was still kinda ‘newish’ in Endwalker, but by now it’s like ‘why are we still stuck with a job that feels like it just born?’

It’s been a whole expansion and the best they could come up with for future Summoners was… another Bahamut . (Insert skull emoji)

The saddest thing is I like Solar Bahamut’s design in a vacuum. I could’ve totally got behind it as an upgrade to Bahamut or something. But as an entirely separate summon? Ew, not the right move at all SE lol.

And tacking on a random, unnecessary party heal to a goddamn Bahamut, King of Dragons summon is hilariously stupid. Oh, and you can only use it within 30 seconds of summoning Solar Bahamut, because screw you I guess.

Additional thoughts for Summoner in future:
- FIX PHYSICK lol. Fix/rework/delete/whatever lol.
- Let us use Radiant Aegis on allies at half potency
- Decouple Solar Bahamut and Lux Solaris. Either make Lux Solaris its own cool-down, make it a single target upgrade to Physick, or maybe tie to a shorter cool-down ability like Radiant Aegis or something and adjust potency accordingly. Let us decide when to use it, not the game.
- As much as I love Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan, we desperately need more summons to diversify the gameplay and make Summoner feel less robotic/fixed. Hell I’d accept a straight copy paste of Subtractive Pallet (Sumtractive Pallet? Subtractive Summon? lol) if it meant we could get more iconic summons like Ramuh, Shiva, Leviathan, possibly Odin and Alexander.
- Ruin IV feels like a relic from previous expansions that barely adds anything to the job anymore. I’d like to see a chance for it to proc when using primal skills and stack up to 4 like it used to, with the caveat that Summoner would have far more frequent cast phases to compensate.
- Similarly the Aetherflow system feels like a relic from previous expansions that barely adds anything to the job anymore. Necrotise got a visual upgrade but that didn’t really help it less disjointed from the overall skill set lol. Maybe they could maybe Necrotize and Painflare change into different abilities depending on which summon is active? They could remove Aetherflow itself, move the MP elsewhere (maybe Ruin IV to justify its existence lol), and have the Aetherflow be refreshed each time a new summon is performed?

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Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra

Honestly though, I’d be ecstatic if we just got Levi, Shiva and Ramuh as gem summons, even without any fancy astral/umbral mechanics. Give me my full cast of elements, rainbow of gems and rainbow of Carby colors!

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A full rainbow of Carby colors... This is what I want. I'd also like to be able to fully glamour over ALL versions of the egis into the carbuncles. Yes including the max-level 100 versions into the carbuncles too.


The one thing that's really frustrating to me about carbuncle coloration is that if you look at the elemental crystal colors we have, the current "emerald carbuncle" we got as original default carbuncle really is closer to the light blue that the ice aether crystal is and should be for ice... and wind aether crystals should be a true green shade that we just don't have for carbuncles yet. I'd love to get that green as an option, and we could call it another gemstone like idk, jade, peridot, malachite. The advent of the new base "carbuncle" in Endwalker that's a deeper blue helps out, but that needs to be the water-aether colored one?


Represent levin with a purple carbuncle, call it Amethyst or Iolite (we have gemstone jewelry called that in-game). There's a diamond carbuncle model in-game already and Shiva uses diamond dust as an attack, give us that for ice. Use the new deeper blue base carbuncle as the water one, call it sapphire or lapis.


And then just to make sure we have all kinds of colors, I'd like to have an orange, a pink, and maybe we can borrow Alphinaud's obsidian and moonstone? Maybe he gave those two's summoning focus stones to us (y'know, like the crystals we used as ACN for our original carbies) to us when he went SGE?


Also Perrrrrrsonally I think Solar Bahamut is ugly as heck and it was uninspired to have another Bahamut. So hear me out, I would LOVE to be able to glamour the Bahamut / Phoenix / Solar B. to be ... well, carbuncles! Or other summon types as well. I want to replace Solar B. with Proto-Carbuncle.

Modern SMN is a joke of a job and the shining example of what they think jobs should be about (an afterthough) to make way for full DDR encounter design.