alternative to Walk casting

since we are getting new phy range, I believe that it can't be something unique without changing how phy range kit would look like,

since many people suggesting walk casting, well I have someone new,

rhythm style similar to PSO2 game it is a cricle showing you when the perfect time you trigger the next button,

while aiming player can't walk but after triggering at perfect time it will do 20% extra damage and dash short dash when moving.

perfect scenario:

if button trigger at perfect timing it will do extra 20% instead of 10,000 it will do 12,000 and short dash to direction that player moved to.

worst scenario:

it will do 10,000 damage and also perform short dash to direction that player moved to.

comparison between walk casting vs rhythm-like:

- walk casting can actual walk but slower than insta cast.
- rhythm-like cannot walk and it requires you to stop 1 second.

what do you think? could this be another iteration for cross-bow type of job or it could also be someone that current phy range job could have as alternative to walk casting?

Please no... Why can't I play a normal role that's not based on action game gimmicks. I don't want to play guitar hero, I want to play a RPG.

Functional rhythm mechanics in Snapshot Fantasy XIV? Hell would sooner freeze over.

Rhythm style button press from PSO2, holy I feel old now. (they got rid of it with New Genesis so it's only a holdover in the legacy version)

The thing is, we already sorta have this - it's the global cooldown and riding OGCD cooldowns, it's simply optimal in most cases. In comparison, PSO2 Photon Arts also generally had no cooldown and were only gated by the resource "Photon Points", that's why it sorta worked. There is also the fact that PSO2 runs on UDP connection (meaning your latency to hit targets in PVE is fairly lenient) where-as FFXIV works on TCP connection to my knowledge, which requires a lot of back and forth for even just seeing your resources update.

Maybe with 8.0 when a whole overhaul of the role could be considered.

Movement might also currently be overrated a bit. It's absolutely interesting, but "for what".

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Originally Posted by Valence

Please no... Why can't I play a normal role that's not based on action game gimmicks. I don't want to play guitar hero, I want to play a RPG.

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Well, there is many RPGs that uses this mechanic and it works

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

Functional rhythm mechanics in Snapshot Fantasy XIV? Hell would sooner freeze over.

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They have to make it enjoyable at least

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Rhythm style button press from PSO2, holy I feel old now. (they got rid of it with New Genesis so it's only a holdover in the legacy version)

The thing is, we already sorta have this - it's the global cooldown and riding OGCD cooldowns, it's simply optimal in most cases. In comparison, PSO2 Photon Arts also generally had no cooldown and were only gated by the resource "Photon Points", that's why it sorta worked. There is also the fact that PSO2 runs on UDP connection (meaning your latency to hit targets in PVE is fairly lenient) where-as FFXIV works on TCP connection to my knowledge, which requires a lot of back and forth for even just seeing your resources update.

Maybe with 8.0 when a whole overhaul of the role could be considered.

Movement might also currently be overrated a bit. It's absolutely interesting, but "for what".

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That's why the game is dead, they get rid of things that people liked to attract new players,

PSO isnt the only game that it did it, games like Windblown with crossbow weapon is done it soo well,

Idk about the technical part and maybe it is impossible with the current networking, but as far as I know many games done this with lower budget than FFXIV and it was done perfectly.

"For what" is a good question, for fun, gameplay is so static these days, refreshing new mechanic would be cool to see

I'm surprised no one's mentioned that you do not always want to move and it is beneficial to stand still for mechanics, so adding a mandatory dash to everything would just be obnoxious. Though I suppose the fact the whole 'timing' situation just wouldn't work in the context of FFXIV and it overshadowed the whole dash thing. FYI, all the cartridge attacks (except Double Down) have a 'timed' input, 'Continuation'. That is the closest you will get to a 'timed' input.

But like walking casts are right there, and have proof to back them up whether or not you agree with their implementation or not. As others have pointed out, FFXIV is unfortunately just not equipped for such granular mechanics as you are describing. They could be neat, but game limitation. Dash attacks could also be cool, but have to be handled with care, and attention.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

But like walking casts are right there, and have proof to back them up whether or not you agree with their implementation or not. As others have pointed out, FFXIV is unfortunately just not equipped for such granular mechanics as you are describing. They could be neat, but game limitation. Dash attacks could also be cool, but have to be handled with care, and attention.

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FFXIV wasn't equipped for good lighting but now it is,

Rhythm-style isn't a replacement for walk casting, it is another option that maybe new job could have.

As if it is a game limitation, it could be, but it is still an option that they improve their code to make it work is a good thing to see

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I'm surprised no one's mentioned that you do not always want to move and it is beneficial to stand still for mechanics, so adding a mandatory dash to everything would just be obnoxious. Though I suppose the fact the whole 'timing' situation just wouldn't work in the context of FFXIV and it overshadowed the whole dash thing. FYI, all the cartridge attacks (except Double Down) have a 'timed' input, 'Continuation'. That is the closest you will get to a 'timed' input.

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Dash isn't mandatory, if player want to move to any direction it will move else it will keep same place,

There is nothing rhythmatic that requires visual attention in gunbreaker,

As if it could work or not it is SE choice to make it work or not, many network issues fixed like PvP hit detection and Titan whole situation

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Dash isn't mandatory, if player want to move to any direction it will move else it will keep same place,

There is nothing rhythmatic that requires visual attention in gunbreaker,

As if it could work or not it is SE choice to make it work or not, many network issues fixed like PvP hit detection and Titan whole situation

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Until you need to move a small amount and you dash rather than just move slightly.

I mentioned Continuation as it was meant to be the FFXIV equivalent to pulling the trigger from FFVIII.

PvP hit detection wasn't really a network issue. They just changed when the damage was registered to better match the animation, which is why you can see longer casting animations and walk out of it.

Ultimately though, you have to consider how it would be implemented and whether it would be a good fit. Depending on how long you have to wait for the exact trigger, you can lose oGCD slots, how does Skill Speed affect the timing? How much leeway do you have? etc. As many have already said, this just wouldn't fit FFXIVs battle system. It is too rigid for something like this to work properly.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Please no... Why can't I play a normal role that's not based on action game gimmicks. I don't want to play guitar hero, I want to play a RPG.

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I mean how is it normal that casters in this game don't really cast?

How is it normal that melees generally care like 5% about melee range in a whole boss fight?

Healers don't heal.

This game has some design issues. At this point if they don't want to, like you say, make the roles more "normal", then giving each a "gimmick" might actually be a really really good idea.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

FFXIV wasn't equipped for good lighting but now it is,

Rhythm-style isn't a replacement for walk casting, it is another option that maybe new job could have.

As if it is a game limitation, it could be, but it is still an option that they improve their code to make it work is a good thing to see

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Graphics, and client/server communication systems are very different things.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I mentioned Continuation as it was meant to be the FFXIV equivalent to pulling the trigger from FFVIII.

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Which wouldn't be a bad idea, but it just sadly doesn't pan out that way. It's just another oGCD to press, sadly.

I mean in theory I could envision a Gunbreaker that:

* Has significantly less oGCDs.
* In fact has only one, Continuation, but it applies to "most" skills.
* Has a slower GCD than other tank jobs (3.0-3.5s).
* On pressing your GCD, a small window appears like the skillcheck on repairing the generator in DBD. Press at the best spot and you get an automatic direct hit or something + press at least in the white area and you get a small shield, fail to hit either area and you just do nothing. Either way the GCD deals damage at the end of it's GCD window.

So basically we'd have a very slow and very methodical tank that in return has massive damage spike potential and steady if slow mitigation on itself.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Until you need to move a small amount and you dash rather than just move slightly.

I mentioned Continuation as it was meant to be the FFXIV equivalent to pulling the trigger from FFVIII.

PvP hit detection wasn't really a network issue. They just changed when the damage was registered to better match the animation, which is why you can see longer casting animations and walk out of it.

Ultimately though, you have to consider how it would be implemented and whether it would be a good fit. Depending on how long you have to wait for the exact trigger, you can lose oGCD slots, how does Skill Speed affect the timing? How much leeway do you have? etc. As many have already said, this just wouldn't fit FFXIVs battle system. It is too rigid for something like this to work properly.

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It is not something that is *new*, it is better to take a look on the market and see how indie games can do it,

It is developers task as it requires debugging of a system and try to best to copy it like how FFXIV 2.0 copy WoW, imagine if we keeping 1.0 systems, the game would be dead in 6 months.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Graphics, and client/server communication systems are very different things.

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Well SE is an indie game after all

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Well SE is an indie game after all

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Small indie company, please understand.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

But like walking casts are right there, and have proof to back them up whether or not you agree with their implementation or not. As others have pointed out, FFXIV is unfortunately just not equipped for such granular mechanics as you are describing. They could be neat, but game limitation. Dash attacks could also be cool, but have to be handled with care, and attention.

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To their defense, the kind of action they're describing already exists in XIV and has been seen in the christmas events where you had to conduct an orchestra and press the keys being displayed at the most precise moment. The closest to the good timeframe, the better the score for each press.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean how is it normal that casters in this game don't really cast?

How is it normal that melees generally care like 5% about melee range in a whole boss fight?

Healers don't heal.

This game has some design issues. At this point if they don't want to, like you say, make the roles more "normal", then giving each a "gimmick" might actually be a really really good idea.

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Things being shitty aren't an excuse to make them even more deplorable, but as shown in many threads, it comes down to subjective tastes.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean in theory I could envision a Gunbreaker that:
...

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Don't know about anyone else, but that sounds horrible to play. I also do not know what DBD is, so I cannot make any comments on that. Also, dealing damage at the end of the GCD is a good way to make a job feel really bad to play. With a 3 second delay, it would feel unresponsive. You would want it at the very least when you press the follow up button. I would also have a concern that the GCD button doing nothing other than starting the timing minigame will make it feel tacked on. It's an issue I have with Summoner's Summon Demi GCDs, with the only redeeming factor that you have a bunch of oGCDs to press now, otherwise, it is a GCD to do effectively nothing, where other jobs would put it all into an oGCD.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

It is not something that is *new*, it is better to take a look on the market and see how indie games can do it,

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I never said it was a new concept, but would it fit in FFXIV? That is what you would need to decide. As an absurd example, I can't just say, make it so you press a GCD and then have to stand still and solve a 3 stack Tower of Hanoi puzzle to do damage. Could it be done? Yes. Is it sensible and does it fit the game? No. The biggest hurdle you have is the timing. You cannot make it super strict, otherwise it will feel bad to play and the job will suffer, make it too long and it is just another oGCD that you either early weave or late weave depending on timings. This is before we get into whether it is a good idea to force this mechanic on your job whilst you have to deal with everything else at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

I never said it was a new concept, but would it fit in FFXIV? That is what you would need to decide. As an absurd example, I can't just say, make it so you press a GCD and then have to stand still and solve a 3 stack Tower of Hanoi puzzle to do damage. Could it be done? Yes. Is it sensible and does it fit the game? No. The biggest hurdle you have is the timing. You cannot make it super strict, otherwise it will feel bad to play and the job will suffer, make it too long and it is just another oGCD that you either early weave or late weave depending on timings. This is before we get into whether it is a good idea to force this mechanic on your job whilst you have to deal with everything else at the same time.

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Who decide that it doesn't fit FFXIV? All I see that this is your personal preference,

Is current Phy Range situation fit to FFXIV? no it is not, it is causing a balance issues and existential crisis for jobs like machinist,

your example doesn't relate to the subject,

"You cannot make it super strict, otherwise it will feel bad to play and the job will suffer, make it too long and it is just another oGCD that you either early weave or late weave depending on timings."

No it will not, You are comparing apples with oranges, rhythim/timing attacks is way different than oGCD which you mention in your example gunbreaker.

"This is before we get into whether it is a good idea to force this mechanic on your job whilst you have to deal with everything else at the same time."

Whether is it a good idea? As I said before you are repeating yourself, this mechanic isn't new it is a mechanic that in gaming since long time ago, while if the execution is bad it is the execution fault, this is already working.

This is a gameplay mechanic like a hard casting,soft casting,walk casting. BLM should have hard casting, but it doesn't mean all skills are hard cast, and rest for healers and PVP kit for machinist.

I believe you have to play other games see that for yourself before you compare it with current FFXIV mechanics

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Who decide that it doesn't fit FFXIV? All I see that this is your personal preference,

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Yes, but, if you haven't noticed, I'm trying to get out of you more details on how you envision this to work.

All I have to go off of is, when aiming, you press a button at the exact time, to trigger effect. With how every job is designed, this would mean pressing a GCD to start the aiming process, then pressing a button again to execute. I would assume you do not want the execute to be based off of the GCD timer, otherwise you could, in theory, use the GCD timer itself to queue the exact trigger press, making the idea pointless, or, since you have much higher freedom with oGCDs, you press an oGCD to trigger the effect. If you want to shake up the core foundations of every job, 1. it probably won't go down well and 2. you need to explain how you want to shake it up, how should this system work.

Based on my above understanding, I then questioned how it will interact with certain systems already in place, ie. other oGCDs, Skill Speed etc. Conveniently, you ignore those.

Yes, Continuation probably isn't what you envisioned, I know that. I was merely making the comparison that, Squall from FF8, has a timing for his attacks and limit break, which is similar to what you seem to want to propose, a timed button press and the devs solution to that was continuation. It was to show that the devs idea of making a timed input is making it an oGCD, specifically one that can only be used within the specific GCD window.

As for games with timings, 2 big ones that stick out for me are Devil May Cry 4 and 5 and SoulCalibur. Staring with Devil May Cry, Nero has a mechanic where you press the trigger on hit, and you can get exceed gauge, perfect timing grants full exceed gauge, I was going for them whenever I could. As for SoulCalibur, we are looking at the frame perfect inputs, something I used to spend a lot of time in practice mode to get the timings down so that it became second nature in an actual fight. We also have the aforementioned FF8 where the timings are very very lenient. I have also been a player of a few rhythm games in my time as well.

I am very familiar with perfect timings on inputs, but that is also why I do not think it would fit in FFXIV combat design. It also seems to be the general consensus from others in this thread. So sell it to us. Give us more details, how specifically do you envision it to be implemented in FFXIV, these questions people have, how would you answer them? I suspect your response is going to be something along the lines of, the devs will sort it out, at which point I, again, point to GNB, the perfect opportunity they had, and they didn't do it.

Maybe you have a good idea, who knows, but we won't know unless we get more details.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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We don't need to invent the wheel, take something that is working from other games and do it,
WoW take many things from Everquest
FFXIV ARR take from WoW
play games that have X mechanic and understand how to implement it.
PSO2, Windblown, many similar games.

If you think GCD is something new in the market and FFXIV invented it you are wrong,

I can explain it but you can watch on youtube too it will show a better image on how this system works,

if we take FFXIV as an example GCD (not all of them) will be a rythihm mechanic for specific job, oGCD will not get effected,

if we take perfect timing it is part of rythihm mechanic but not all of it, there are other systems that uses perfect timing and they are not rythihm games.

one of FFXIV issues it has 2 mechanic and failing to balance them, (casters, non-casters), if we consider PvP we will have Walk casting, but let me ask a good question, does walk casting fit to ffxiv combat system? it wasn't until they introduce it, so it is an execution problem, I know many games (and sure you will) that have casting, non-casting, walk-casting, slide-casting, rythihm timing, animation-lock and many other mechanic in games that released before FFXIV by 5 to 10 years, and they are working fine and balanced more than current FFXIV DPS state.

I didn't introduce something new, from your answer it look like it is new to you, there are people who do not like this mechanic and they shouldn't, jobs should be a unique experience that have people who likes it and people who don't, or we will have current FFXIV gameplay.

Your question is good "how specifically do you envision it to be implemented in FFXIV" like how Yoshi P implemented ARR by copying WoW, copy good gameplay mechanic from other games, FFXIV isn't about me or you it is about all people who enjoy different experiences based on their taste.

"Maybe you have a good idea, who knows, but we won't know unless we get more details."
You didn't give yourself time to search on it, probably you won't understand it from the my post.