The XIV encounter recipe in a nutshell

- Turn everything into a circle or square arena.
- Add a trial boss. Addendum: if the casual version is closer to a dungeon, remove the dungeon part and only keep the trial boss for the higher difficulty versions.
- Interlace AoEs and donut AoEs.
- Pepper with pair stacks, light party stacks when appropriate.
- Add a tank buster or two.
- Rince and repeat.


To think we were promised new and exciting encounters for Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Valence

- Turn everything into a circle or square arena.
- Add a trial boss. Addendum: if the casual version is closer to a dungeon, remove the dungeon part and only keep the trial boss for the higher difficulty versions.
- Interlace AoEs and donut AoEs.
- Pepper with pair stacks, light party stacks when appropriate.
- Add a tank buster or two.
- Rince and repeat.


To think we were promised new and exciting encounters for Dawntrail.

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we got them in DawnTrail. wasnt the inclusion of Wuk Lamat in virtually everything "new and exciting"?

Also:
- Raid wide AoE that you can't avoid.

But really to be fair I like the last boss of the Stayborough dungeon or trying to do the maze in Tender Valley (even though it's re-used). It's a start.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

we got them in DawnTrail. wasnt the inclusion of Wuk Lamat in virtually everything "new and exciting"?

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It was!

We also did get new mechanics, like knockup mechs that check what direction you're facing, RNG-ish patterns, more continuous KB mechs, counting ‐ hit confirmation mechs, bait mechanics everyone does that have some RNG mixed in..

We can ask for more sure, but let's give them credit where it's due. This tier was not simply stack, spread, aoes, donuts etc

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Originally Posted by Valence

- Turn everything into a circle or square arena.
- Add a trial boss. Addendum: if the casual version is closer to a dungeon, remove the dungeon part and only keep the trial boss for the higher difficulty versions.
- Interlace AoEs and donut AoEs.
- Pepper with pair stacks, light party stacks when appropriate.
- Add a tank buster or two.
- Rince and repeat.


To think we were promised new and exciting encounters for Dawntrail.

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The first boss for The Strayborough Deadwalk expert dungeon had something new and I bet you complained about that.

Don't forget the chance of an attack being either a spread, a stack with 2 person pairs, or a stack with 4 person groups.

Bonus points if the tell is just a different cast bar name instead of a visual cue.

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Originally Posted by Krojack

The first boss for The Strayborough Deadwalk expert dungeon had something new and I bet you complained about that.

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Something as annoying as the first boss of Deadwalk is new, but its not exciting. I think complaining about something new that is as poorly made as the first boss of the Deadwalk is legit. I mean dawntrail is new too (well parts of it here and there) but still plenty of ppl complained because it was one of the most poorly written, paced and boring pieces of story they have given to us since, well, ever.

Just because we asked for something new and was given whatever thing this is, doesn't mean we cannot point out that it was not done well.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Just because we asked for something new and was given whatever thing this is, doesn't mean we cannot point out that it was not done well.

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So we dismiss new mechanics also if we subjectively decide it's not "exciting" as well? The entire premise of this thread is to reinforce that they have a repetitive track record of mechanics, yet when they add new things, we still get to dismiss it if we find it "boring" or "not fun"?

These forums can never be satisfied. Every thread proves this more and more. Here's an idea OP, become a game dev, get hired by SE and create this new and exciting mechanic you believe everyone will enjoy unequivocally.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Just because we asked for something new and was given whatever thing this is, doesn't mean we cannot point out that it was not done well.

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They actually said that the reason they fell into this pattern of mechanics is because people regard them as clean and well done, and that when they tried other things, they'd often be attacked for it and my guess is that the Stayborough first boss is an example of this. It caused them to retreat into "safe mechanics" that they know work.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

We also did get new mechanics, like knockup mechs that check what direction you're facing, more continuous KB mechs

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I'll give you these but the others have already been in the game

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RNG-ish patterns, counting, bait mechanics everyone does that have some RNG mixed in

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For rng patterns, we already had guardian https://i.imgur.com/LA03wDy.png For counting, we had caloric and pangenesis. For the bait mechs everyone has to do, we had O8s part 2.

Changing the boss animation =/= new mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

For rng patterns, we already had guardian https://i.imgur.com/LA03wDy.png For counting, we had caloric and pangenesis. For the bait mechs everyone has to do, we had O8s part 2.

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We have never had a bait mechanic like witchhunt which simultaneously forces all players to bait while also introducing two mechanics that have to be read (and remembered) on two mediums (color shapes and naming convention) that literally change every single pull at a toss up and change how you position each time (4x variations). The closest we have to that is P5 DSR which is slightly more RNG and Hello World ( but the variation doesn't affect everyone equally) but both of those aren't bait mechs specifically ala your ex, 08s kefka kicks. Only one form of Kefka kicks actually has individual responsibility with some RNG in it, and it only affects 4 players at the same time. The other 4 players have fixed positions.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

We have never had a bait mechanic like witchhunt which simultaneously forces all players to bait while also introducing two mechanics that have to be read on two mediums (color shapes and naming convention) that literally change every single pull at a toss up and change how you position each time. The closest we have to that is P5 DSR which is slightly more RNG and Hello World ( but the variation doesn't affect everyone equally) but both of those aren't bait mechs specifically ala your ex, 08s kefka kicks.

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The color shapes are actually from Another Mount Rokkan criterion. Which does the same thing

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They actually said that the reason they fell into this pattern of mechanics is because people regard them as clean and well done, and that when they tried other things, they'd often be attacked for it and my guess is that the Stayborough first boss is an example of this. It caused them to retreat into "safe mechanics" that they know work.

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If square can’t figure out after THIS long why certain mechanics do and don’t work in the current engine then that says more about them than it does the feedback we are offering

Let’s look at 2 “new mechanics” who got completely different reactions

1) strayborough deadwalk- the mobs aren’t actually where they appear on your screen and when they catch you because their hitbox is inconsistent they punish you with 10 seconds of no DPS. New mechanic community didn’t like it

2) queens chess- new and unique movement mechanic built on forced match that made you position yourself on a chess board against 2 other pieces. It works within the system and people moved queen’s mechanical design


Making mechanics that don’t work within 14’s spaghetti code and bad NetCode then using the obvious resultant bad feedback to go back to the same generic 5 mechanics we always have is just an indication of creative bankruptcy. Anyone could see from 10 miles away that the deadwalk boss doesn’t work well with the NetCode

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

The color shapes are actually from Another Mount Rokkan criterion. Which does the same thing

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Definitely missing the point, on purpose I assume.
Point to a full party bait mechanic that also is governed by RNG every single pull that has individual responsibility weeded throughout.

It was was the same thing. Two people had to bait the close/far binds while the other two had to bait the moko clones while dodging arms and dodging the second cleave after the first.
Edit: Also random where the arms spawn in being north or sout or east and west.

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Originally Posted by Sensui

Changing the boss animation =/= new mechanics.

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Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new mechanics.

But just changing the animations and using them in new combinations/orders doesn't bother me. That's how it's been for most of the game's existence. I almost struggle to understand how people made it through 10 years of this if they didn't like it.

I think from their perspective, things like out and in AoEs, raid-wides, stacks, spreads, tethers, are just the tools (nuts and bolts) with which to build fights with. Unless you zoom out to see how they are being combined or utilized, you're never gonna appreciate them.

There's also the telegraphing issue. They like to be consistent with them across the game, but this has the effect of making it more obvious a mechanic is being reused.

Again, I'm for new mechanics and their promised new direction, but I just don't have a problem with how it has been, especially in high-end content where they are just using these "nuts and bolts" to build fights that, clearly, still wipe people.

I've been raiding in wow the past few tiers and it's a problem over there too, the patchwerk fight, the council fight, the add pad fight, the gimmicky fight nobody likes, etc.
i think raids are just getting outdated. Wow's mythic+ dungeons are miles more fun than any raid encounter.
Would love for ff14 to try something like that instead of the same boring raids

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Originally Posted by Krojack

The first boss for The Strayborough Deadwalk expert dungeon had something new and I bet you complained about that.

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I did. It is annoying, but I also applaud the attempt, actually, even though it doesn't go in a direction I like, especially the teacup boss.

I'll still keep an eye on the next dungeons, since it's the only place where some timid things have appeared. And i'll cross my fingers that I like it.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

It was!

We also did get new mechanics, like knockup mechs that check what direction you're facing, RNG-ish patterns, more continuous KB mechs, counting ‐ hit confirmation mechs, bait mechanics everyone does that have some RNG mixed in..

We can ask for more sure, but let's give them credit where it's due. This tier was not simply stack, spread, aoes, donuts etc

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Every tier has always had a couple of new little things give or take. Anabaseios saw web shenanigans in P10, it also had Harrowing Hell, for example. The knockback mechanic in M1 is no different (it's cool though). It's still the same formula. If this is enough to satisfy you all, then I'm happy for you. I'm sorry but this savage tier has been a perfect example of the current formula.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Here's an idea OP, become a game dev, get hired by SE and create this new and exciting mechanic you believe everyone will enjoy unequivocally.

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So we're moving the goalposts now? This is not about pointing an incredibly stale formula that keeps and has kept happening even this tier, but this is about making something that everyone will enjoy unequivocally?

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Definitely missing the point, on purpose I assume.
Point to a full party bait mechanic that also is governed by RNG every single pull that has individual responsibility weeded throughout.

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I think the main reason why both sides are unable to understand each other or talking past each other on this specific issue is that to you, a variation within the same limited lego set is enough to say something is new. To us, it's just more of the same shifted around with a new coat of paint.
But I won't deny that it's also bout expectations and satisfaction. You're obviously satisfied with the current gameplay, we aren't, and are expecting other more radical changes.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for new mechanics.

But just changing the animations and using them in new combinations/orders doesn't bother me. That's how it's been for most of the game's existence. I almost struggle to understand how people made it through 10 years of this if they didn't like it.

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I reflected long and hard on why I actually went with it for 10 years (9 in my case so far). Which in reality is probably not even half of it because I enjoyed it up to ShB and onward, which, you guessed it, we always go back to. The great shift that shattered the community in two. But the question remains legitimate though, how did I make it through those 4-5 years if I didn't like it?

Well first there is the slowly boiling frog analogy. Water gets hotted and hotter but slow enough that you keep up with it right? Until at some point you notice you're seriously having problems and that's what happened to me in EW and it outright exploded now in DT as a revelation. I may have not been happy with things like job design, the systematic deletion of many other things I enjoyed, but it took time to actually put words over things and exactly nail the causes of dissatisfaction.

And then, there is also sheer stubbornness combined with false promises, either on the dev's side, or on my own side: the little fairy that keeps telling you to hope for changes and bad things to be addressed on a constant basis, and you keep telling yourself that yes, eventually it's gonna get better, but it doesn't, until you realize that what the devs are doing goes against what you personally like, and that it's not about a universally problematic low in design, but an actual disagreement between you and the altered product you're being served. For instance, people complained about the state of job design in EW already, and we were told to eat it and wait for 8.0 when DT wasn't even released yet. 8.0 is in 2 years at best. This is how long things can stretch just because of their rigid development schedule. If anything, some of us complaining here are absolute fans of the game (or have been), to have stuck for so long in spite of it.

With how MMOs can literally occupy a huge part of people's life depending on who you ask, and the amount of personal investment that can go into it, one doesn't just get rid of that attachment in a snap of your fingers, so I do believe that understandably, those things can indeed stretch over a long time. Obviously, I can only talk about my own experience there.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think from their perspective, things like out and in AoEs, raid-wides, stacks, spreads, tethers, are just the tools (nuts and bolts) with which to build fights with. Unless you zoom out to see how they are being combined or utilized, you're never gonna appreciate them.

There's also the telegraphing issue. They like to be consistent with them across the game, but this has the effect of making it more obvious a mechanic is being reused.

Again, I'm for new mechanics and their promised new direction, but I just don't have a problem with how it has been, especially in high-end content where they are just using these "nuts and bolts" to build fights that, clearly, still wipe people.

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The lego set is one thing, but comparing the type of gameplay we're getting nowadays to what we were getting when I started playing, and you'll see the immediate difference. It's not just about encounter lego and bricks, it goes way beyond this. It encompasses the battle system, the game direction and feel, and what as a player you're being asked to do in any fight encounter. But perhaps the crux of the problem is that I'd be satisfied with a relatively unchanging formula if it was HW's formula, yes, and maybe I've been misdirected by Yoshida's promises on new things there.

You'll admit though, that encounters didn't use to be stack, pairs, spread, chariot, dynamo all the time either. They had more unique flavors to them all, and the whole game battle content as a whole has been getting poorer and poorer, more barebones with a single model of boss encounters (trial bosses), a single model of instances, and a single model of mechanics (DDR), with no more model of battle system.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Also:
- Raid wide AoE that you can't avoid.

But really to be fair I like the last boss of the Stayborough dungeon or trying to do the maze in Tender Valley (even though it's re-used). It's a start.

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I agree with you and I like the other side dungeon in general the first boss is annoying but unique second boss is interesting the last one can one shot that I was surprised and the last pulls with the healer check is actually really interesting even the first boss in the dungeon you speak about.

its not to hard but I have seen many wipe on the first boss

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Originally Posted by Valence

Well first there is the slowly boiling frog analogy. Water gets hotted and hotter but slow enough that you keep up with it right? Until at some point you notice you're seriously having problems and that's what happened to me in EW

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That makes sense if the issues started in ShB for you. I just remember as far back as Heavensward people saying to me "it's just in, out, reused mechs" arguments and so I thought "if it's been like that since HW, then what actually changed now?"

I suppose other things can keep people occupied in the game through that time though - such as the social aspects (RP, venues, BA/DRS, FC events, statics, hunt communities).

I think there are two especially notable things that made this issue more obvious in Endwalker:

• The giant hitboxes and re-centering thing forced them even more into the "in, out" thing and made it even more obvious, since you couldn't realistically drag the boss around for mechanics anymore. The solution to that was mostly to have mini versions of the boss do mechs instead or have arena-based mechanics. This is one of the things they are supposed to be backtracking on but I'll leave it to everyone to decide if they have - it's still a bit early in the expansion.
• Expert roulette only having the same 2 dungeons, one of which has always been in it for 8 months. If you do this daily for 8 months you get so used to the script that, no matter how difficult or complicated or fresh the mechanics, they become absolutely braindead to execute and then all you see seared in your mind is more of the in, out, left, right stuff. This is a consequence of no longer making sidequest dungeons and they'd really just benefit from merging Expert and Level 100 Roulette together to increase variety. For example, the last MSQ dungeon beat me up at first on Viper but after months of doing it, it's absolutely braindead. In the past, it was always 2 new dungeons in that roulette every 3.5 months.

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It's not just about encounter lego and bricks, it goes way beyond this. It encompasses the battle system, the game direction and feel, and what as a player you're being asked to do in any fight encounter.

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True, there have been a lot of other changes (aka removals) that take away things that potentially distracted from how it had in, out, stack, spread before, so maybe it's easier to notice due to everything else being streamlined.

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You'll admit though, that encounters didn't use to be stack, pairs, spread, chariot, dynamo all the time either.

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It didn't in ARR for sure, although a lot of ARR dungeons actually seem to predate ARR and were ported from 1.0, with certain changes. They were a lot of different things in HW too, like both the Hullbreaker Isles from ARR/HW respectively. Based on what they said, this is the design they want to return to (with hindsight of what doesn't work), and I can see they have at least tried in the new dungeons.

If they haven't returned to that design enough then we can hope that they try harder with it. I think Dawntrail is meant to be about getting the battle content to the right place again and they may not have meant they'd succeed right off the bat. So perhaps the best place for us to start is to give reviews of the new Dawntrail dungeons specifically and what is good and what isn't (Dawntrail raids and trials too, depending on ones' interests).

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

I have seen many wipe on the first boss

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I've done it for months and not seen a single wipe, but I've seen it come very close. But y'know, nothing can kill a Warrior, so I'm bias. :D

Wait wait, where did they say they wanted to go back to ARR/HW encounters? Because if that's the idea, they've utterly failed so far...

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Originally Posted by Valence

Wait wait, where did they say they wanted to go back to ARR/HW encounters? Because if that's the idea, they've utterly failed so far...

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Sorry if I can't immediately say where they explained this, there's been lots of events, interviews, media tours, live letters and fanfests the past year. I think it was at one of the Pax events.

They explained that, starting with Stormblood, they fell into a pattern of "safe" mechanics that they knew would be received well. This was because they were afraid of the criticism of the type of mechanics they had done in ARR and Heavensward.

So they didn't say this, but observing what stopped happening in Stormblood, it's obvious they mean anything that interfered with uptime, or was annoying (like the enemies running at you thing in Stayborough), or involved stuns and status effects and things like that. And it's exactly these things they tried to do in Stayborough.

They also began explaining mechanics and making them too obvious - let's use Doma Castle as an example of this, and wanted to go back to a point where you have to wipe and "figure out" the mechanics. It's fair to say that most people who do Stayborough or Tender Valley don't "get" the mechanics on the first pull and to be quite honest, I've met plenty of people that don't get them after doing it for weeks and just eat the vulns. Had a few discussions about it recently with randoms in Stayborough. This is similar to how you can do ARR and HW dungeons and not get the mechanics for lots of runs (for example, not dragging tethers to statues in Amdapor Keep HM/The Aery, the birds in Pharos Sirius, ignoring trees in Hullbreaker, because they didn't put a gigantic arrow on them).

I'm not saying they have got it to where you or others would like it to be, but that's what they explained they wanted to do and they specifically said the new expert dungeons had their new philosophy and I can see where they have tried.

Another thing they said they wanted to do was send individual roles, such as the DPS, to fight other enemies in raids - you know like how they do in A12 or A7, so this is something to look for as well.

The first boss in Strayborough, or rather being chased by a thing with wonky hitboxes that you shouldn't get hit by, isn't even really new, it's basically a variation of E8S Light Rampant orbs.

The spinning ghosts on the 2nd boss are a more interesting mechanic that can be built upon for higher difficulties imo, although I'm not entirely sure if that hasn't been done before either.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

So they didn't say this, but observing what stopped happening in Stormblood, it's obvious they mean anything that interfered with uptime, or was annoying (like the enemies running at you thing in Stayborough), or involved stuns and status effects and things like that. And it's exactly these things they tried to do in Stayborough.

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I feel like fights being catered towards easy full uptime with nothing getting in the way of it just ends up making very stale fights for a melee, so it's good to hear that they're changing that if this is true.

I did notice a bit of it already in this tier though. Electrifying Witch Hunt baits may result in downtime. Elevate and Eviscerate in M1S also forces downtime (although some people got around it by finding out that if 1 person in the DPS/supports group is dead, it automatically targets the other group, so saccing 1 DPS allows the other 3 to always have full uptime during Mouser 1).