The game would be better without stats

Stats on melds are useless and barley noticeable..
The whole character stat window is useless

I am not against the idea of having to empower stats but I believe the this will not work for the game..

Why not replacing stats with additional conditional skills?

additional skill will be activated if X happens

Have you ever considered letting your thoughts develop beyond the "I've just had this thought" phase?

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Have you ever considered letting your thoughts develop beyond the "I've just had this thought" phase?

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its called "General Discussion" for a reason something called "Discussion"

but it seems that you are triggered for no reason.. it look pathetic to be honest

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

its called "General Discussion" for a reason something called "Discussion"

but it seems that you are triggered for no reason.. it look pathetic to be honest

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Jumping right to "triggered" when I suggested your half-baked and demonstratably false opinion is half-baked, huh? I do believe you're projecting.

Pro-tip: Something not mattering to you doesn't mean it doesn't actually matter, and this topic has been done to death. Or did the thought of "Maybe this has come up before" never occur to you? You never want a discussion. You want validation. Apologies, I'm not giving it to you.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Jumping right to "triggered" when I suggested your half-baked and demonstratably false opinion is half-baked, huh? I do believe you're projecting.

Pro-tip: Something not mattering to you doesn't mean it doesn't actually matter, and this topic has been done to death. Or did the thought of "Maybe this has come up before" never occur to you? You never want a discussion. You want validation. Apologies, I'm not giving it to you.

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You jumped at them though, Could have been less pedant.

Ilvl is one thing that can kinda lock people out of high-end content... Unless you jump in on Week 1, you kinda start needing Savage Gear to do Savage...

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Originally Posted by Teno

You jumped at them though, Could have been less pedant.

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I disagree. When someone presents an idea as extreme as "Remove an entire system," then fails to provide solid reasoning for that idea, or even a simple explanation that solidly answers the question of why, I believe that person should be called out as such. Especially when the topic has been done to death.

In this case, instead of typing a dissertation explaining why the idea is flawed and why it won't be implemented ever (with quotes from Square, since they've spoken on the latter half of the topic), I recognize that OP has a consistent track record of making these sorts of posts that lack any critical thought. So, to save my time, I've gone the route that I've gone.

Op's immediate attack proves to me that I've chosen the best path.

Well yes, it would be good, but the problem is "what about the casual players who don't interact with it at all or meld anything at all".

Anyway, titanmen made a whole debate on that a while ago that actually developed thoughts on it... https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...gear-treadmill

There was also this https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...roying-balance

I mean...there is a point that melds are basically useless. Every class goes for crit/det/Dh anyway. . Everything else...nope. Sure rare cases like monk and skill speed...but you could also give out gear with those stats on it. And in downscaled content (which basically every Roulette thing is), you dont get any use out of melded materia
On the other hand...we have no talent points nor anything that would make it an rpg with any choice at all. So just keep it in and still give an illusion you could change your playstyle at all by melding different.

Healers would celebrate, if they don't have to avoid every gear piece with piety into it.

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Originally Posted by Lyndina

we have no talent points nor anything that would make it an rpg with any choice at all.

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I think we might be on the brink of that changing by the next expansion, but we'll see. Their desire to move away from endless leveling may create the opportunity to have a default set of traits with the ability to go a different route for people wishing for more complexity or difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Lyndina

I mean...there is a point that melds are basically useless. Every class goes for crit/det/Dh anyway. . Everything else...nope. Sure rare cases like monk and skill speed...but you could also give out gear with those stats on it.

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Melds are useless because the combat system is trash and restrictive.

Rotations have to fit the 2-minute meta that the developers have pigeon-held us into, or your rotation ends up subpar and feels bad to play.

Get rid of 99% of the group buffs, stop with the 30sec/1min/2min timers, and allow spell/skill speed to affect cooldowns will open up different builds.

There was a moment in time when attribute points felt better, but that was when we had different distributions within gear and everyone could wear everything. It's one of those changes Stormblood made, now it's all Fending gear for tanks, where as before, for whatever reason, they could wear melee or caster gear if they wanted.

It's regrettable but you're completely right. And it's even worse that we can extend this stagnating design flaw to gear as well. We could remove gear tomorrow and keep Item level and nothing would change in the game. Gear could still offer glamour but it doesn't need to be a part of us. Our characters don't play any differently.

But then again, you'll run into the same wall that has led to this game being like this in the first place. You can't ask developers to work on anything, you should just unsub because "it's something you don't like". I just want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with you asking these questions and pondering these things.

This community is overwhelmingly toxic, try your best to ignore them.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Melds are useless because the combat system is trash and restrictive.

Rotations have to fit the 2-minute meta that the developers have pigeon-held us into, or your rotation ends up subpar and feels bad to play.

Get rid of 99% of the group buffs, stop with the 30sec/1min/2min timers, and allow spell/skill speed to affect cooldowns will open up different builds.

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It is being this way because it is easier to balance.. and the jobs still not balanced..

Let's be real here.. we need huge changes to combat system.. talent system could be a solution.. but again with no agency of how your job has been played it is still will not change the current system

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Originally Posted by WetShoelace

There was a moment in time when attribute points felt better, but that was when we had different distributions within gear and everyone could wear everything. It's one of those changes Stormblood made, now it's all Fending gear for tanks, where as before, for whatever reason, they could wear melee or caster gear if they wanted.

It's regrettable but you're completely right. And it's even worse that we can extend this stagnating design flaw to gear as well. We could remove gear tomorrow and keep Item level and nothing would change in the game. Gear could still offer glamour but it doesn't need to be a part of us. Our characters don't play any differently.

But then again, you'll run into the same wall that has led to this game being like this in the first place. You can't ask developers to work on anything, you should just unsub because "it's something you don't like". I just want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with you asking these questions and pondering these things.

This community is overwhelmingly toxic, try your best to ignore them.

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Already on my way out, because after 10 years...another content draught, no changes to engaging healer gameplay...i'm at a point where those 13 Euro a month for the sub are not worth for me anymore. Not saying i wont be back...but for now its goodbye once my sub runs out next month. The deafening silence to everything thats brought up on the forum is just the tip of the iceberg. In my eyes FF and Yoshi P takes the same path that wow once took, asking for feedback but not even listening to it. Hells...ff right now is even worse. Because it doesnt evolve from its archaic formula at all. So yeah..gonna try out some other games...maybe couple monts of wow...dont know. Lots of choices.

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Originally Posted by WetShoelace

There was a moment in time when attribute points felt better, but that was when we had different distributions within gear and everyone could wear everything. It's one of those changes Stormblood made, now it's all Fending gear for tanks, where as before, for whatever reason, they could wear melee or caster gear if they wanted.

It's regrettable but you're completely right. And it's even worse that we can extend this stagnating design flaw to gear as well. We could remove gear tomorrow and keep Item level and nothing would change in the game. Gear could still offer glamour but it doesn't need to be a part of us. Our characters don't play any differently.

But then again, you'll run into the same wall that has led to this game being like this in the first place. You can't ask developers to work on anything, you should just unsub because "it's something you don't like". I just want to assure you that there is nothing wrong with you asking these questions and pondering these things.

This community is overwhelmingly toxic, try your best to ignore them.

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Thank you.. and you are right..

I didn't invest in the game at stormblood but I can see it can lead to something wrong..
Having an agency on how you play the job is what make me feel like I play an RPG.
Developer understands that old system can't be back without invest much resources and unsub is the only way to sends a message to them

We players are not suppose to give solutions.. we point on an issue that developer should work them selfs to find solutions.
Giving an idea is not our job.. our job is to get good product meaningful changes each 2.5 years so they can have our sub

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Have you ever considered letting your thoughts develop beyond the "I've just had this thought" phase?

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BabyYoda is right. The stat system in FF14 is so useless and adds literary nothing to the game, that one can see it as parasitic game design. The only thing, what matters is item level.




Cheers

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well yes, it would be good, but the problem is "what about the casual players who don't interact with it at all or meld anything at all".

Anyway, titanmen made a whole debate on that a while ago that actually developed thoughts on it... https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...gear-treadmill

There was also this https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...roying-balance

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Good ideas but let's get realistic here..

giving an idea is nice effort but no one understands the game engine and its capability other than the developer CBU3..
We are not gamedevs and we are not suppose to give solutions but to point for an issue for a gamedev to solve it.

Eruka and Bozja have good steps but it is still not good enough

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

BabyYoda is right. The stat system in FF14 is so useless and adds literary nothing to the game, that one can see it as parasitic game design. The only thing, what matters is item level.




Cheers

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Parasitic game design? Inserting basically free items into your gear for free stats and a mild way to customize said stats, including the ever important skill and spell speed? That's parasitic to you? That's useless? Do you even know what the word parasitic means?

Please keep your delusions to yourself. They are wrong.

Speaking of parasitic, btw. Have you considered not being one in the content you do? A 16 cast per minute White Mage thinks they have an opinion on game systems and can judge if that system has a use. I wish I could say you used those casts for healing, but your co-heal seems to always do 2-4x your healing. I wish I could afk 60% of the fights I'm in.

At least, if I had to guess. That's all theoretical and assumption, of course. It's not like we have hard numbers out there.

Thanks for the laugh for the day. Those are always welcome.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Parasitic game design? Inserting basically free items into your gear for free stats and a mild way to customize said stats, including the ever important skill and spell speed? That's parasitic to you? That's useless? Do you even know what the word parasitic means?

Please keep your delusions to yourself. They are wrong.

Speaking of parasitic, btw. Have you considered not being one in the content you do? A 16 cast per minute White Mage thinks they have an opinion on game systems and can judge if that system has a use. I wish I could say you used those casts for healing, but your co-heal seems to always do 2-4x your healing. I wish I could afk 60% of the fights I'm in.

At least, if I had to guess. That's all theoretical and assumption, of course. It's not like we have hard numbers out there.

Thanks for the laugh for the day. Those are always welcome.

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Larirawiel is right and you are just a rude person..

You can't accept that people have different opinion than yours and this look absolutely pathetic

Get over it and listen to Yoshi P advice to play other games

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Parasitic game design?

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It seems, you do not get it what "parasitic game design" is. It is basically a game mechanics, which steals player's time and adds nearly nothing to the game. The stat system in FF14 fits perfectly into it.


Cheers

The melds are pointless because it gives you a false sense of choice. There is no choice. Just the right thing or the wrong thing. That's what makes them pointless.

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Originally Posted by SubmarineAlt

Have you ever considered letting your thoughts develop beyond the "I've just had this thought" phase?

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Wow, this guy is demeaning and condescending right out of the gate in the very first reply, and 16 others co-sign this post. Interesting.

I agree with BabyYoda here. Stats were removed from PvP and the mode feels even better to play since its more about player skill/experience instead of getting a lucky critical/direct hit. I think the same could be done about PvE to be honest. As it stands, a casual/newbie in high stats gear can do better damage than a highly skilled player doing the latest community/scientific rotation but wearing old gear with worse stats.

What purpose does the current stats system serve? Personally, I only did Savage raids for the sake of doing a more challenging PvE content. The only point in getting the gear was to be able to dye it for glams. If they got rid of all the stats, people would still try to maximize rotation and get up to the #2 on the threat meter in alliance raid/normal raid/savage raid (I'm making an assumption that thats what others care about stats for).

Aside from crafting requirements, what do others enjoy about having stats in this game?

Gear system needs help. Gotta do savage to get savage gear to do savage. Wtf is the point to any of this.

Stats are really just "meld as much crit and direct hit as humanely possible and maybe determination sometimes."

It's sad. Piety as a whole is bad bc on paper yes, it gives you more comfort in having MP to save runs only to realize that better managing your MP abilities is better. Piety is a dead stat pass prog and even then, most mechanics will wipe the party immediately to even justify melding it.

Lowering healer's ability to have a stable MP economy is also bad as well, bc all that does is push the healers with the best MP economy to the front while punishing healers who have to to rely on piety.

AST was this way in SB and ShB (although SB had unlocked MP numbers). In ShB, you had to switch pieces or even meld piety to even be competitive with SCH/WHM for mp usage.

WHM got hit with this issue in EW when all healers got the 1.5s cast times and the nerf to Thin Air (which is ironic bc it's supposed to be more flexible with charges).

In the end, all stats end up being "which one is the best for damage?" The games obsession with 2 min burst windows and reliance on dps timers to balance jobs is hurting job identity and forcing jobs to be more or less carbon copies of one another.

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

no one understands the game engine and its capability other than the developer CBU3..

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Sometimes they openly share what it's capable of. The libraries and technology it uses are displayed in the credits (and we know what said libraries and technology are capable of). Also, FF16 stands as an example.

There are things that can be done in any engine that are independent of what engine it is. You can know what these things are if you understand how to code. This knowledge can also give you a good understanding of what the issues might or might not be.

And when you've played the game a long time you get a good feel for it which gives a good sense of what limits the game runs into. Not that those are entirely relevant, because they could be changed.

There are just likely reasons they are not changed though, such as keeping within system requirements, or actual spaghetti code where 10 years of the game is built ontop of it and they don't want the stack of cards to fall down. Cases like the stack of cards falling down are often easy to observe in the game... such as changing the battle system when all the old content is designed around it. But you will still see players demand things that would break the rest of the game.

Sometimes there are cases where changing something is desired, but would take a long time and involve overhauling a lot of stuff. And that can be another reason to put it off or just not do it (I am sure they run into this and can even think of examples where they have).

Overall, I don't agree that you need to be a developer to make detailed suggestions. Most suggestions are possible, even if there would be reasons why they'd never do it and even if there would be technical reasons they wouldn't bother (including it involving too much work such as overhauling the entire game just for a person's suggestion or it causing the game to exceed system requirements).

I'm afraid the system is so rigid that changing that would not be possible.
But.... what if it were like the Fate RP system, where every clas/job has a certain set of skills on which skills and abilities would be based on?

Ah yes, the usual, a system has become vestigal over the years so obviously it needs to be removed...as if that isn't exactly what brought us this bland gameplay sludge in the first place.

I'd argue they should make stats feel more impactful (and have more information on the character sheet) then removing them entirely, I feel that the devs/players are far too gung ho about removing stuff, the game is barebones as it is, stats are a small way to optimise your character and make you think about gearing. I would prefer more engaging interactions beyond just stacking crit and reaching a particular speed.

At that point, might as well remove MP, casting, repairing, melding and positionals so the game is even less engaging. With how watered down the systems have become over the years, I'm finding less and less reason to log in. Streamlining is fine, but there is a point where its just too much, I'd argue removing stats would cross that line.

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Originally Posted by Tizzy_Tormentor

I'd argue they should make stats feel more impactful (and have more information on the character sheet) then removing them entirely, I feel that the devs/players are far too gung ho about removing stuff, the game is barebones as it is, stats are a small way to optimise your character and make you think about gearing. I would prefer more engaging interactions beyond just stacking crit and reaching a particular speed.

At that point, might as well remove MP, casting, repairing, melding and positionals so the game is even less engaging. With how watered down the systems have become over the years, I'm finding less and less reason to log in. Streamlining is fine, but there is a point where its just too much, I'd argue removing stats would cross that line.

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I'm of this opinion; Square has a habit of just removing things because we deem them "pointless" or "annoying" (see TP, most positionals, most DoTs, tank stances) instead of thinking of how to make those systems engaging. Rather than removing the stats entirely, give me reason to want stats that aren't Crit/DHit.

Want to make Piety a stat that isn't entirely pointless? Give healers a second filler nuke with a higher MP cost and higher potency, now we not only give healers actual MP management in their damage kit, but Piety now indirectly gives extra damage via more casts of their higher damage nuke. I'd go even further with this and have most jobs use MP in some form, and remove the healer restriction on Piety, making it a universal stat that could affect your rotation in some meaningful way.

Want me to meld speed? Have the speed stat also affect other damage cooldowns so I don't get punished with drift because I wanted to go fast (there's a lot of other problems involved, like the strict 2 minute cooldowns and GCD alignment over those 2 minutes to ensure you get as much potency during those bursts).

Want Tenacity to have some meaning? Reducing the natural defensive power of the tanks and give Tenacity a boost in defence to make up for the loss in natural defence. Another option would just be to greatly increase auto and buster damage (and frequency of busters), but that would give roughly similar results. This would give Tenacity a little more meaning as both a prog stat and "insurance" stat. Ideally the change should be enough to reduce the amount of healing spells needed to keep a tank up so it could act as an indirect damage increase, but that would require a lot more changes to encounter design and healer kits.

The answer to the stat system being bad and pointless is to make them not bad and pointless. Easier said than done, but this game doesn't need more things removed, it needs more depth.

We used to have a lot of degree of control in our stats, to the point where you could meld both positive and negative enmity materia.
They took it all away and numbers now are just a façade.

Damn, not sure what else they would use? Swag lol? Guess it would work similar to luck..........

Is there actually a MMO without stats? I think MHW comes the closest, but they have power.

Stats are all part of the carrot chase. MMO players have grown to become enamored by stats, e-peen, etc.

saying you never do crafting and gathering without say it

I don't know. The stats are pretty boring, but I would rather they make changes to make them a little more fun to use instead of just delete them entirely.

Are people even melding things besides crit dhit and det?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Are people even melding things besides crit dhit and det?

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Skill speed and Spell speed

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Stats on melds are useless and barley noticeable..
The whole character stat window is useless

I am not against the idea of having to empower stats but I believe the this will not work for the game..

Why not replacing stats with additional conditional skills?

additional skill will be activated if X happens

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Hard disagree. Stat grinding is the most fun part of any FF game as far as I'm concerned.