Stormblood Yotsuyu/Tsuyu storyline is so good

Just finished the post Stormblood MSQ story line with Yotsuyu's lost memories. (Well, actually I am at 'Gone Like the Morning Dew' - maybe there is more to come.)

I just felt the need to express how great I found the writing of this story was. Isn't it remarkable how the story played with player expectations? Didn't we all first think the lost memories thing was a lie and she should simple be killed / locked away? In the end I actually shed tears for a villain. A first in my gaming history.

Thanks for that!

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Originally Posted by lamour

Just finished the post Stormblood MSQ story line with Yotsuyu's lost memories. (Well, actually I am at 'Gone Like the Morning Dew' - maybe there is more to come.)

I just felt the need to express how great I found the writing of this story was. Isn't it remarkable how the story played with player expectations? Didn't we all first think the lost memories thing was a lie and she should simple be killed / locked away? In the end I actually shed tears for a villain. A first in my gaming history.

Thanks for that!

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We all hate Stormblood. Reeee!
Also its the best use of amnesia clichee of them all.
Wait till you get to Shadowbringer breaking another trope.
P.S. I protest Asahi (midlander) using THighlander kick in the cutscenes. I am notifying Hyur union about this >:{

Yeah, I found it interesting how her lack of memories led to them treating her like an entirely different person. It was almost like your memories are what make you you in the FF14 universe...

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

It was almost like your memories are what make you you in the FF14 universe...

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Arguably the real one, too, if one is open to an uncomfortable thought or three.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Arguably the real one, too, if one is open to an uncomfortable thought or three.

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It's a philosophical question about the value of punishment, almost. If someone commits a murder but then suffers some sort of memory loss, are they still guilty? Is it still right to punish them? Who's that punishment actually for if you do it; is it actually going to do anything for or about the person, or is it just so that onlookers can feel like justice was done? It throws the entire concept of retributive justice into question. It's a question that can only really exist in a fictional scenario, because that's where you can trust that they genuinely don't remember as opposed to faking it, but even then it requires you to buy it, and with Tsuyu I don't really think I did.

My issue with that story was elsewhere, though; I spent the whole thing being annoyed they brought her back, because I thought she had a perfectly serviceable storyline and sendoff in 4.0, and I'm still not sure that the 4.x storyline really added anything to it outside of that specific question. In fairness, I think that question was one the game had to ask there, to start paving the way for the way the story would go in future expansions, but that wasn't really enough to save the story itself for me.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

It's a philosophical question about the value of punishment, almost. If someone commits a murder but then suffers some sort of memory loss, are they still guilty? Is it still right to punish them? Who's that punishment actually for if you do it; is it actually going to do anything for or about the person, or is it just so that onlookers can feel like justice was done? It throws the entire concept of retributive justice into question. It's a question that can only really exist in a fictional scenario, because that's where you can trust that they genuinely don't remember as opposed to faking it, but even then it requires you to buy it, and with Tsuyu I don't really think I did.

My issue with that story was elsewhere, though; I spent the whole thing being annoyed they brought her back, because I thought she had a perfectly serviceable storyline and sendoff in 4.0, and I'm still not sure that the 4.x storyline really added anything to it outside of that specific question. In fairness, I think that question was one the game had to ask there, to start paving the way for the way the story would go in future expansions, but that wasn't really enough to save the story itself for me.

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Honestly I think it gave her a much more powerful send off. She got her revenge and the catharsis of it, while having the understanding that she's wronged far too many people to ever truly be excused. I like that it doesn't portray her revenge itself as bad, but also showed how it poisoned her view of her countrymen because she hadn't the means to truly strike at them.

The way I see it, I don't think tormenting the Doman people was what Yotsuyu wanted most. I think what she wanted was to kill her family. Since they were protected through Garlean citizenship, other Domans were the next best thing. She rationalized this by thinking "Well, none of them helped me, so they all deserve it." But after she killed both her parents and Asahi, she was at peace.

(4.4-5.4 SPOILERS)

Personally I'm not really a fan of how they ended her story. What she did was awful, but it felt too mean-spirited to kill her off like that when she had a chance at healing. Especially since Gaius got to walk free, even though he allowed Ala Mhigans to be enslaved (Radiata) and possibly looked the other way when his soldiers abused women.

I wonder what would've happened if she lived, though. She'd probably be tempered, and she definitely wouldn't be able to go out and about, so she'd need to be kept somewhere safe. After 5.4 they'd be able to cure her. Not sure what would happen after that.

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Originally Posted by StormChase

She'd probably be tempered, and she definitely wouldn't be able to go out and about, so she'd need to be kept somewhere safe. After 5.4 (SPOILERS FOR THAT PATCH) they'd be able to cure her. Not sure what would happen after that.

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What would she be tempered by? Tsukuyomi was essentially a primal born of her own rage and hatred; the EE2 points out it doesn't even resemble the actual Tsukuyomi of myth. So she's tempered by... herself? Would that just make her very stubborn?

When she was first intrduced, I disliked her, but once you learn about her past and what she could have become with better people around her, I started to feel pity for her.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

What would she be tempered by? Tsukuyomi was essentially a primal born of her own rage and hatred

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When Elidibus is cosplaying as Zenos and sets up the false flag for Doma, he tells Asahi that incarnate-summoning (via a ritual + the infused Kojin relic triggered by her desire) will (lacking the Echo) indeed temper her. Yes, "to herself", to put it simply. But recall that a primal manifests in a form determined by its summoners' intentions, volition, state of mind, and desires - all of which can (and often do) change with new experiences, new information, or simply the passage of time.

Being "tempered to yourself" as you were only a short time ago might not amount to much of a practical difference. Being "tempered to yourself" at a moment in the distant past might lead you to become something altogether different than you otherwise would have. It's interesting to think about, at least.

Consider for comparison/contrast with Yotsuyu, perhaps... Thordan, Tiamat, or the summoners of Zodiark.

Citation Referenced

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When you have found her, you will initiate a ritual to call forth an eikon. I will instruct you in the necessary steps. Yotsuyu's faith is unreliable. But as a child raised to believe in the kami, she will serve as a vessel for one of the Kojin's gods. She need only wish it to be so. The power will seem a gift, but the eikon's essence will consume her. She will be no more than a husk, a slave to whim and desire.

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GERMAN
Des Weiteren werde ich dich in die Geheimnisse der Götzenbeschwörung einweihen. Sobald du Yotsuyu gefunden hast, wirst du sie als Medium benutzen. Ihr Glaube ist zwar nicht stark genug für eine Beschwörung. Aber in ihrem Land gibt es unzählige von diesen Kami. Wenn man Yotsuyu ausreichend motiviert und dazu noch ein Artefakt der Kojin einsetzt, sollte sich einer rufen lassen. Natürlich wird die Gottheit sofort von ihr Besitz ergreifen. Die Starken haben nun mal die Angewohnheit, die Schwachen zu ihren Sklaven zu machen.
I will also initiate you into the secrets of eikon summoning. As soon as you find Yotsuyu, you will use her as a medium. Her faith is not strong enough for a summoning. But there are countless kami in her country. If you motivate Yotsuyu enough and use a Kojin artifact, one should be summoned. Of course, the deity will take possession of her immediately. The strong have a habit of making the weak their slaves.

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FRENCH
Avant que tu ne partes, je vais t'enseigner le rituel d'invocation secret des Primordiaux. Tu devras à ton tour le transmettre à Yotsuyu quand tu l'auras retrouvée. Elle n'a probablement aucune foi religieuse, mais étant originaire de ces contrées orientales où sont révérées des myriades de kami, elle fera parfaitement l'affaire. Il suffira d'un artefact kojin et de ses désirs pour qu'elle prenne la forme d'une divinité. Naturellement, une femme aussi veule qu'elle ne pourra pas imposer sa volonté. Une fois le Primordial invoqué, elle en deviendra la prisonnière, comme une âme inerte, dépourvue de tout libre arbitre.
Before your departure, I will teach you the secret summoning rituals regarding primals. You will have to pass it on to Yotsuyu when you find her. She probably has no religious faith, but being from these eastern lands where myriads of kami are revered, she will do perfectly for the job. All it will take is a Kojin artifact and her desires for her to take the form of a divinity. Naturally, a woman as weak as she is will not be able to impose her will. Once the primal is summoned, she will become its prisoner, like an inert soul, devoid of any free will.

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JAPANESE
これより貴様には、神降ろしの秘儀を授ける。ヨツユを見つけたならば、その手法を手ほどきせよ。奴には、信仰心など露ほどもなかろうが、八百万の神が息づく東方の生まれならば、依り代にはなる。紅甲羅の神器と成すべき願いがあらば、神のひとつも降ろせよう。むろん才なき女は、自ら身に宿した蛮神の虜となり、願いに囚われた生ける亡者と、なりはてるだろうがな。
From here, I will teach you the secrets of summoning a deity. When you find Yotsuyu, teach her the method. She may not have the slightest faith, but as she was born in the East, where dwell the eight million kami, she can serve a vessel for one. A sacred treasure of the Crimson Shells will react to her desire, facilitating the summoning. Of course, lacking the faculties to control it, she become a prisoner of the eikon that resides within her; she will be as the living dead, imprisoned by her desires.

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POSSIBLE PANSLATION
Prior to your departure, I will bestow unto you the secrets of eikon summoning. Once you have made contact with the acting viceroy, you are instruct her in the necessary ritual. Yotsuyu's faith is far too weak for a conventional summoning to succeed. However, given that she was raised surrounded by belief in the Yaoyorozu no Kami, she should be possessed of sufficient sentiment to trigger a reaction from a sacred treasure of the Kojin. With the proper motivation, she will serve as a vessel for the eikon it manifests. The entity will consume her mind, of course. Lacking the willpower to resist, she will from that moment be driven solely by the desire which beckoned it forth.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Yeah, I found it interesting how her lack of memories led to them treating her like an entirely different person. It was almost like your memories are what make you you in the FF14 universe...

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Nope. Memories shape who you are but don't determine who you are. Digitizing them then shoving them all into a .exe with a series of if/thens designed to make the program act in a reasonable facsimile does not make that program a person.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

When Elidibus is cosplaying as Zenos and sets up the false flag for Doma, he tells Asahi that incarnate-summoning (via a ritual + the infused Kojin relic triggered by her desire) will (lacking the Echo) indeed temper her. Yes, "to herself", to put it simply. But recall that a primal manifests in a form determined by its summoners' intentions, volition, state of mind, and desires - all of which can (and often do) change with new experiences, new information, or simply the passage of time.

Being "tempered to yourself" as you were only a short time ago might not amount to much of a practical difference. Being "tempered to yourself" at a moment in the distant past might lead you to become something altogether different than you otherwise would have. It's interesting to think about, at least.

Consider for comparison/contrast with Yotsuyu, perhaps... Thordan, Tiamat, or the summoners of Zodiark.

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This is true, and Elidibus himself probably brings the clearest example, albeit in a bit of a sideways way. (Spoiler-ing the rest because I think the OP might still be in post-Stormblood.)

I've described current Elidibus as 'a self-portrait of a self-portrait', basically one person's gradually distorted view of themselves over millennia of being the core/an extension of Zodiark.

He's a very extreme version, though, that's someone tempered by themselves across twelve thousand years. Yotsuyu would probably have never lived long enough to show that. ...especially because she's naturally a very stubborn person, there's a good chance you cure her tempering and she doesn't even notice.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

When Elidibus is cosplaying as Zenos and sets up the false flag for Doma, he tells Asahi that incarnate-summoning (via a ritual + the infused Kojin relic triggered by her desire) will (lacking the Echo) indeed temper her. Yes, "to herself", to put it simply. But recall that a primal manifests in a form determined by its summoners' intentions, volition, state of mind, and desires - all of which can (and often do) change with new experiences, new information, or simply the passage of time.

Being "tempered to yourself" as you were only a short time ago might not amount to much of a practical difference. Being "tempered to yourself" at a moment in the distant past might lead you to become something altogether different than you otherwise would have. It's interesting to think about, at least.

Consider for comparison/contrast with Yotsuyu, perhaps... Thordan, Tiamat, or the summoners of Zodiark.

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(SHB AND EW SPOILERS)

If you've done the Bozja questline it's also why the ancient Gunnhildr's Blades felt so threatened when the shrine maiden they chose had the Echo. They made their plan with the assumption she'd be tempered by the transformation.

I know Emet-Selch claimed Zodiark tempered his summoners but the Loporrits said tempering was added to the primal summoning process after the Sundering. Maybe Elidibus ended up how he did because he'd already died in the initial summoning.