How Throne and Liberty can fix their combat system but we stuck with ShB deisgn?

How Throne and Liberty can fix their combat system in 9 months but we are stuck with ShB design for 7 years?

Even though FFXIV has more money and existing audience,

both games has tab target combat which destroys the idea that tab target combat can't be engaging.

Throne previously it was auto combat like mobile games but now it moved to tab target non auto combat.

What has been implemented in T&L:
1- Job classification: 2 players can play the same job but differently for example:
you can play Paladin-White mage or Paladin-Dragoon as one job
2- Active actions to parry and block attacks
tanks block dps parry exc..
3- Rotations: FFXIV already had that too.
4- netcode: which we suffer since release.

I am against that we copy everything from other games, but we have to do something to the current state of the game is bad. story is negative and combat is fixed

ShB design isn't bad, but it is so fixed and we stuck with it for 7 years

The question is SE an indie company? or it is just their philosophy?

I dont think T&L have 12 years of content to keep in mind when adjusting various things

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I dont think T&L have 12 years of content to keep in mind when adjusting various things

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they already adjust 12 year content for trust system,

how is it bad for job design and battle content but good for trust system?

I totally get the overall point and I even agree with it - there is no excuse as to why we are stuck with the same old... everything for all those years, while all other MMOs reinvent themselves by adding brand new mechanics and reworking new ones.

But man, please don't use Throne&Liberty as an example for anything. I don't know if you're one of the few hopefuls who are still waiting to play it in the West, or if you've been following its journey in Korea... But long story short - it's a flop in Korea. Same as Blue Protocol was a flop in Japan. And same as Blue Protocol never even managed to release in the West because it had to be closed in Japan, I am awaiting a sad end to Throne and Liberty. And I'm a Lineage fan btw, who was coping that this was going to finally be THE MMO. It's not. They can be reworking things all they want, the problem is that their vision was only ever a soulless cashgrab.

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Originally Posted by BakoolJaJa

I totally get the overall point and I even agree with it - there is no excuse as to why we are stuck with the same old... everything for all those years, while all other MMOs reinvent themselves by adding brand new mechanics and reworking new ones.

But man, please don't use Throne&Liberty as an example for anything. I don't know if you're one of the few hopefuls who are still waiting to play it in the West, or if you've been following its journey in Korea... But long story short - it's a flop in Korea. Same as Blue Protocol was a flop in Japan. And same as Blue Protocol never even managed to release in the West because it had to be closed in Japan, I am awaiting a sad end to Throne and Liberty. And I'm a Lineage fan btw, who was coping that this was going to finally be THE MMO. It's not. They can be reworking things all they want, the problem is that their vision was only ever a soulless cashgrab.

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Yes I agree, we don't have to copy bad mechanics and bad monetization,

we already have best business model for MMORPGs which subscription,

all player guarantied that have 10$ to 12$ subscription and some have mogstation transactions,
we already monotized also retainer too,

we don't have to follow bad practices for other games,
we copied WoW in ARR and we didn't copy "WoW token" but in many ways we move past them in shadowbringers,

Blue protocol was excellent in 2018 but not in 2025, China games just broke RPG anime games, WuWa - Genshin - ToF, all of them hold player better than BP (even though they are not MMOs but people will compare them to BP).
T&L has bad first impression was as bad as FFXIV 1.0 but if you played the game in lunch and play it now you will see how much changes this game offers to combat, progression and balance.

FFXIV 2.0 take 2 years to develop and T&L took 9 months to see meaningful changes,

FFXIV 2.0 wasn't great and it wasn't bad, it was an enough improvement to hold players with the game.

Taking good practices and job mechanics from other games is better than sticking with same design forever

You would need a complete game mechanics overhaul to change things like classes etc. And it is very likely, that you would have to change all mobs and bosses in the game. And a bigger variety of classes would propably destroy the class/job balance. And then you would see oceans of tears in the forums why job xyz does 3% more DPS than my favourite job etc.



Cheers

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

You would need a complete game mechanics overhaul to change things like classes etc. And it is very likely, that you would have to change all mobs and bosses in the game. And a bigger variety of classes would propably destroy the class/job balance. And then you would see oceans of tears in the forums why job xyz does 3% more DPS than my favourite job etc.



Cheers

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if the game currently balance why 4 tank 4 dps M4S kill faster than 2t 2h 4dps?

or how white mage is worst healer and pure healer in the game?
or how warrior outshine DRK in every way?
or how SMN is worst damage in the game? even worst than dancer?
or how 2 shield healers can clear content but not 2 pure healer?

I don't think you understand how unbalance and jobs have the same kit in this game.

Yes we ask for huge changes to job design and battle content, because it was already changes in SB and people who played since didn't like ShB approach.

xyz do not only 3% dps more but do 100% utility more than other jobs, DPS isn't the only factor for balance BTW.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

if the game currently balance why 4 tank 4 dps M4S kill faster than 2t 2h 4dps?

or how white mage is worst healer and pure healer in the game?
or how warrior outshine DRK in every way?
or how SMN is worst damage in the game? even worst than dancer?
or how 2 shield healers can clear content but not 2 pure healer?

I don't think you understand how unbalance and jobs have the same kit in this game.

Yes we ask for huge changes to job design and battle content, because it was already changes in SB and people who played since didn't like ShB approach.

xyz do not only 3% dps more but do 100% utility more than other jobs, DPS isn't the only factor for balance BTW.

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Dude do you actually play the game? or are you one of the limsa RP player which talks 99% of the time only nonsense? or do you only some number and think now everything is bad without even understanding the numbers you are looking at?

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Originally Posted by Tunda

they already adjust 12 year content for trust system,

how is it bad for job design and battle content but good for trust system?

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I think the main point in making the ff14 gameplay better is the netcode, and I dont think they can do it easily

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

You would need a complete game mechanics overhaul to change things like classes etc. And it is very likely, that you would have to change all mobs and bosses in the game. And a bigger variety of classes would propably destroy the class/job balance. And then you would see oceans of tears in the forums why job xyz does 3% more DPS than my favourite job etc.



Cheers

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Yeah if they change classes a lot, they will need to adjust all of the content since 2.0, it's probably more work than making a brand new mmo

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

Dude do you actually play the game? or are you one of the limsa RP player which talks 99% of the time only nonsense? or do you only some number and think now everything is bad without even understanding the numbers you are looking at?

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He hid himself in a certain site, so either his numbers are bad or he does no content.

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Originally Posted by AvoSturmfaust

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

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you can't see how game is unbalance when you play dungeons roulette all day,
if everything is easy and all jobs can clear content then the game is balanced -> this is a bad argument you can test job balance in savage only.

Try to play savage with minimum IL no crafting gear with 2 pure healer, DPS will die in second raid wide at most.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

you can't see how game is unbalance when you play dungeons roulette all day,
if everything is easy and all jobs can clear content then the game is balanced -> this is a bad argument you can test job balance in savage only.

Try to play savage with minimum IL no crafting gear with 2 pure healer, DPS will die in second raid wide at most.

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I've been doing savage since 2013. Try again.

The real question is, do you actually do savage, because it's certainly not readily apparent, and the only thing open to the public on your progression is mounts, and I don't see any from eden or pandemonium.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I've been doing savage since 2013. Try again.

The real question is, do you actually do savage, because it's certainly not readily apparent, and the only thing open to the public on your progression is mounts, and I don't see any from eden or pandemonium.

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it doesn't matter if you play savage in 2013 or in 2020

you try to make point defending current system but you try to avoid my argument following me in different website as a stalker as you are,

I see this behavior for many people who play this game for long time no wonder the rumors are correct, not all of them of course.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

it doesn't matter if you play savage in 2013 or in 2020

you try to make point defending current system but you try to avoid my argument following me in different website as a stalker as you are,

I see this behavior for many people who play this game for long time no wonder the rumors are correct, not all of them of course.

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The problem is you are making claims about content despite not seeming to actually participate in said content.

You claim all I do is roulettes, yet it seems that may be all you do.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

The problem is you are making claims about content despite not seeming to actually participate in said content.

You claim all I do is roulettes, yet it seems that may be all you do.

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Why you still avoiding my point?

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Why you still avoiding my point?

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What point? Thank tank healing is currently overtuned? We know this already.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

What point? Thank tank healing is currently overtuned? We know this already.

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good then I was correct,

game is unbalanced

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Originally Posted by Tunda

good then I was correct,

game is unbalanced

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Uh huh. And your solution is to make it worse?

No, the solution is to nerf that aspect of tanks. Directly or indirectly via making boss autos auto-crit or just hit much harder.

Your point is meaningless, and you tried to say we don't know what we're talking about because we only play roulettes, while it seems that's the only thing you do, outside of unsyncing old content.

It might be time we get another nuke to reset. A realm re-reborn and what not.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Uh huh. And your solution is to make it worse?

No, the solution is to nerf that aspect of tanks. Directly or indirectly via making boss autos auto-crit or just hit much harder.

Your point is meaningless, and you tried to say we don't know what we're talking about because we only play roulettes, while it seems that's the only thing you do, outside of unsyncing old content.

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I didn't provide a solution,
I did highlight changes done for T&L that make the game better, and an example of what they did in FFXIV terms.

what I want is engaging gameplay, customization, reactive gameplay, better netcode

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Originally Posted by Amecoeur

It might be time we get another nuke to reset. A realm re-reborn and what not.

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I sincerely think that the only way the gameplay gets an upgrade is by making a new ff mmo

i dont think they can improve the netcode, and so I dont think they can improve the gameplay/identity by a lot

raid mechanics will mostly stay the same (with maybe a few more "wow mech" like alarm pheromones from m2s)

I still find progs fun but that's it, if you want a better combat system go play wow like me

just curious.. but Throne and Liberty isnt even released yet. so.. you are wondering why a game as old as FFXIV doesnt have the same things as a new game?

you have zero idea how games and development work do you?

just a teaser for your impending research.. everything is built on previous builds, since game companies really dislike starting from scratch. even ARR was not from scratch. Throne and Liberty, not being released yet, means they started with a blank page. Easier to implement virtually anything. a 14 year old game? good luck with that. things can and indeed should be implemented... but it takes a LOT more work.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

I didn't provide a solution,
I did highlight changes done for T&L that make the game better, and an example of what they did in FFXIV terms.

what I want is engaging gameplay, customization, reactive gameplay, better netcode

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You want a different game? Cool. Play throne and liberty. I'm passing on that. Also, reactive gameplay is not xiv.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

just curious.. but Throne and Liberty isnt even released yet. so.. you are wondering why a game as old as FFXIV doesnt have the same things as a new game?

you have zero idea how games and development work do you?

just a teaser for your impending research.. everything is built on previous builds, since game companies really dislike starting from scratch. even ARR was not from scratch. Throne and Liberty, not being released yet, means they started with a blank page. Easier to implement virtually anything. a 14 year old game? good luck with that. things can and indeed should be implemented... but it takes a LOT more work.

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developer could take took this argument to not make changes at all for healer too, -> if we change then we will have to balance them it is too much work you can clear content so no need to change it.
FFXIV doesn't need nuke on anything,
combat design need to be less fixed and more flexible.

I tried the game in Korean server.. and surprisingly the netcode even from far away is way better than FFXIV not only that but many old indie games from 2010 have better netcode.

BTW they did start from scratch when developing trust system from first dungeon to last dungeon almost +100 dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

You want a different game? Cool. Play throne and liberty. I'm passing on that. Also, reactive gameplay is not xiv.

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I play both and I am happy with it

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Originally Posted by Tunda

I didn't provide a solution,
I did highlight changes done for T&L that make the game better, and an example of what they did in FFXIV terms.

what I want is engaging gameplay, customization, reactive gameplay, better netcode

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I think the issue is you're falling into the classic trap this forum seems to be famous for and confusing your personal opinion with objective fact. What you feel would make the game "better" for you personally can just as easily make the game "worse" for someone else.

For example, in your original post, you talk about playing combined jobs like PLD-WHM or PLD-DRG. This sounds very reminiscent of the old "cross class" approach FFXIV used to have, which was scrapped precisely because the playerbase in general didn't like it. Why would they go back to that?

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I am against that we copy everything from other games, but we have to do something to the current state of the game is bad. story is negative and combat is fixed

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This is also pure opinion. The data we do have shows FFXIV has a large population with a highly active playerbase, DT has had better player retention on Steam in the post-release month than EW (and on par with ShB) and over 4x as many active players as during the HW days (higher, in fact, than virtually the entire existence of the game except for the brief spike from the "WoW Exodus"). And if you get out and about on the internet, you'll find a ton of people speaking positively of the DT story; just need to get away from certain echo chambers.

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ShB design isn't bad, but it is so fixed and we stuck with it for 7 years

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The "fixed" part being good or bad is, once again, an opinion. For example, I'm someone who prefers games that keep a stable approach to classes. I played WoW for years, and while I in general really liked the fight design and fluid control of your character, one thing that annoyed me was how each new expansion would seem to radically change all of the classes, and it was almost like having to relearn how to play each one again. Some people like that as fresh and new; others liked what they had and don't enjoy re-learning new systems each expansion.

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The question is SE an indie company? or it is just their philosophy?

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Anytime someone uses the "indie company" phrase, all it does is come off as puerile and undermines the person's credibility.