What to do about the scions / potential msq spoilers

Hi everyone,

I wanted to create a post discussing the scions this expansion. I’ve seen a lot of disdain towards Wuk recently but one of my biggest issues with the msq was the fact that scions felt like extras with Alphinaud collecting wood and being complimented for it, estinien stabbing the ground to somehow kill a ton of creatures and thancred and Urianger not really playing much of a role outside of the contest for the throne.

My thoughts are that I would rather A) developers write off the scions by giving them an excuse to leave or B) actually give them dialogue and a reason to stick around. One of my biggest gripes with Wuk’s character outside of her being a copycat of Lyse (caring about her people being 80% of her personality) is that she took the limelight the whole expansion.

It makes sense to have her around as an excuse to be in Tural but at the very least, the developers could’ve split screen time and dialogue with a fairer distribution. It felt like every other cutscene involved the scions walking off for no real reason.

I feel like Krile carries the second half of the expansion and the first half of the expansion are carried by the different competitors. With that being said I feel like the second half of the story could’ve been an expansion in itself.

I’d love to hear your thoughts on how the scions were used this expansion. Did you still enjoy them being around or did they feel mostly irrelevant like background npcs to you too? Would you have liked to see more Wuk, more scions, more of both or just a balanced distribution of screen time?

Overall the expansion was good. There were high points as well as lows for me. I really enjoyed the different twists in the contest. The outcome was predictable though and I kinda wish Koana could’ve become a full time scion instead as it would be nice to have a ranged physical scion with us.

Side note: I feel like Xero could’ve really developed this expansion learning through the journey with different cultures and the various types of personalities in the world.

Try and keep it friendly with eachother in the thread. I just want to see different perspectives :)

Thanks,

Strife.

to me, they must decide between two paths for the Scions after how they were used in DT:

1. Utilize them faithfully to their character as their depiction in Dt was very off putting

2. Partially retire them and make new companions.

I prefer 1, I love the scions. I don't think our journey with them are over and they still have lots to do imo. The twins need to grow up physically, Thancred gotta reunite with his "daughter", Y'shtola be able to see her friends in the First etc. Even more important, for G'raha to be able to see his people in the First again, to see his adoptive granddaughter again. Hell, anything involving the First + Scions will be an instant 10/10 for me.

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Originally Posted by Yaskaleh

to me, they must decide between two paths for the Scions after how they were used in DT:

1. Utilize them faithfully to their character as their depiction in Dt was very off putting

2. Partially retire them and make new companions.

I prefer 1, I love the scions. I don't think our journey with them are over and they still have lots to do imo. The twins need to grow up physically, Thancred gotta reunite with his "daughter", Y'shtola be able to see her friends in the First etc. Even more important, for G'raha to be able to see his people in the First again, to see his adoptive granddaughter again. Hell, anything involving the First + Scions will be an instant 10/10 for me.

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Fully agree. Besides, if we are going to other reflections in the future it doesn't make sense to retire them. Why would they retire? In any case we have new companions in each expansion and the screentime shared fairly not like the fucking shit we got with Wuk Lamat. I want well written characters and well written stories like before. It was all so badly handled that I can only hate DT.

I'll start by saying I'm not in the "Dawntrail sucks" camp. I actually really enjoyed it. Not as much as Endwalker/Shadowbringers but I enjoyed it nonetheless.

However, discussing the Scions in specific - I do feel they were poorly used. They didn't really feel like the people we'd shared so much time and experienced so much with. It, sadly, did feel as if their inclusion was literally to tick the 'Trusts' box and because they appeared in the trailers/cinematics.

Can only hope that the fact that the Warrior of Light/Scions have the 'key' that displayed Azem's symbol will make them relevant again.

Yeah, they need to figure out what they're doing.

My *personal* suggestion would be to rotate the Scions. Have, say, G'raha, Estinien, and Krile with you for most of an expac as the 'dungeon' party with a few local characters for trials *if* you have Trust trials (personally I think that should have been reserved for Hydaelyn).

Cycle the other Scions in and out as relevant, in smaller roles. Next expac it's the Twins and Thancred.

I get that people are tired of the Scions. I'm personally not, and dropping them fast makes no sense. That said, moving them in and out of the narrative- there but not omnipresent- feels like a healthy middle ground. Scion assemlies can be reserved for The Big Stuff. Otherwise, say, Thancred has you pop back for a quest or two and you work with Urianger and Y'shtola to crack the secrets of the new plot device then it's back to the main cast.

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Originally Posted by Strife_Elvedor

one of my biggest issues with the msq was the fact that scions felt like extras with Alphinaud collecting wood and being complimented for it

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Well that's fine to me, really. I liked the focus being on newer characters.

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estinien stabbing the ground to somehow kill a ton of creatures

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That sort of thing has always happened, especially with Dragoons. There is nothing particularly realistic about how Dragoons work, especially in this game. In real you could do pole jumping by doing a run and using a pole to propel you high, which is an olympic sport I've watched, but even this isn't part of many of the jump animations.

It's largely meant to be put down to his connection to nidhogg and the eyes, despite that they no longer exist, so my guess is just he absorbed some of its power and kept it and this aether acts as a form of magic that he has mastered.

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caring about her people being 80% of her personality

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I don't get why people have a problem with someone caring. Like, there are certain people in this world that really should do that more.

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It felt like every other cutscene involved the scions walking off for no real reason.

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Let's be honest. They wanted the scions to be there slightly for use as Duty Support in dungeons/trials.

They probably also wanted to write them out mostly but not entirely in case players are attached to them and want to see them around still.

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I feel like the second half of the story could’ve been an expansion in itself.

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Well it could, but the problem was the second part was also Wuk Lamat's story. She was Dawnservant already, yes, but had she truly beaten Zoraal Ja? They had now made a rival nation with their values and attacked Tuliyollal so it had become rather personal and it needed to be settled.

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I’d love to hear your thoughts on how the scions were used this expansion. Did you still enjoy them being around or did they feel mostly irrelevant like background npcs to you too?

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I was glad they were hardly used. I think they cleverly used them without them necessarily being around us much ie. Thancred having a significant role but not one that involves spending time with us and same with Estinien. It's actually pretty clever to use them while also achieving people's request of them not being around you.

I do think that the build up was not good though. Obviously Wuk Lamat's introduction was too quick in 6.55. I suppose I can accept how Thancred and Urianger got there. But Estinien "just happening" to go to Tural at the same time as us wasn't believable. I'd much rather he just "heard" that we were going and decided to go too in secret because he's a shy loner type person. In fact, maybe I'll just believe that's what happened now.

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The outcome was predictable though

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Let's be honest; the outcome of most stories is predictable. The protagonist wins! It's really about the how and the twist and the turns along the way and those did surprise me. I actually was spoiled on who the first two trial bosses were and the last one was easy to guess for me, yet I still didn't predict how we would end up facing them nor the circumstances in which we did.

If the Scions retire, so shall I.

Personally, I like the Scions. I like some more than others, but I don't outright dislike any of them. I would have no issue if they stuck with us in future stories, though I would like the cast to continue expanding. I believe Erenville was successful addition, for example. I would love if we went back to some of the older expansion scions, like Hoary Boulder and Coultenet.

I also think how the Scions were handled in Dawntrail was horrendous. They felt like cardboard cutouts of themselves and half the time I was convinced they only showed up for Trust dungeons. It was to the point that I wished they hadn't been included at all. The only time I was legitimately excited in the entire expansion was when I got to see my them being cool and helping fight off the invasion on Tural.

I'd be OK if the Scions took more of a backseat but maybe remained in side quests, raid and trial quest lines and stuff, on the condition that we would get compelling new characters in their stead. Unfortunately, SE have a horrific track record of newer companion NPCs between Zero and Wuk Lamat. They were cool as concepts but turned out feeling like someone's OCs (do not steal).

I agree with you in regards to liking the scions. Erenville was handled well but I don’t think he has much of a role outside of fan service with his sort of Tural Arc being over.

I wouldn’t even mind if a couple of the scions leave for an expansion and return for the next whilst another two are cycled out but bring the removed ones into the post patch content. My concern is that they’ll continue to focus more on the new characters whilst leaving the scions feeling flat because there are two many of them to have together now. :)

I agree with the predictability I mean look at heavensward. That expansion was religion, dragons and a medieval setting which is the standard from a fantasy rpg tradition stance.

I’m not saying ignore new characters but to try and find a balance so the expansions isn’t solely about them.

I have nothing against people having a caring personality but it felt like a story we’d already lived through with Lyse.

Yeah I personally feel like Estinien is kept around for fan service at this point. I kinda wish they kept doing comedic scenes with his awkwardness like in Endwalker though but there was far less of that this time.

It kinda felt like most of the scions lost their personalities because of the scrips they were given.

I personally feel like they could’ve finished wuk’s story with the completion celebration but then have Wuk request the Wol’s help to go into the golden city whilst she remain to settle things down in the city.

I actually found the setup for Estinien to be somewhat believable as a lone adventurer without a set destination. I felt like the bombardmemt of the competition in the first place felt out of place and would rather have had the scions travel to rural just to experience total and then get involved through happenstance

And it’s okay to not agree with me. I just wanted to see what other people are thinking so thank you for commenting :)

I think with the Scions it doesn't need to be all or nothing. We don't need to retire everyone - in fact I think this is a horrible idea that would upset a lot of people - but we also don't need to have them all around at once. Dawntrail almost tried to please both camps but in the process of doing so made both unhappy. The people who wanted less of the Scions just saw them as increasingly pointless inclusions, and the people who love the Scions felt that they were underused and treated poorly.

My preference would be to rotate them in and out depending on the story we're telling. Have 2-3 of them around at max at a time, and have them enter and exit the story where it makes sense for them to be there.

I strongly feel they all still have stories to tell and that they should be kept around, but used properly and treated with care. One of the main reasons Dawntrail's story disappointed me so much was its use of the Scions - I'm a firm Scion lover and I honestly would have preferred that they weren't in Dawntrail at all given their treatment.

If we're going to be traveling between shards, it doesn't make sense that at least some of our found family wouldn't come along. But for Hydaelyn's sake, whatever they do with them, put them back into hands that can actually write them properly.

The Scions are fine, they're popular established characters, some of whom still have significant room for growth...

...if they're written correctly, which in DT they were not.

I forget which thread I saw this in, but it's like all the Scions' personalities were blended together and distilled down into a singular 'Scion' character, who shares Wuk's naive desire for peace-without-consequences and conveniently forgot all of their prior characterization.

If Alphinaud drew upon all the lessions he learned about trying to force different types of people into a single mold, he could have made the first half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead he's just the Scion.
If Alisaie was shown as her usual skeptical, wise-cracking self, she could have made the second half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead she's just the Scion.
Thancred could have been worse, but they could have done so much with the 'ScIoNs WiLl Be At OdDs' thing with him that they just threw away in favor of more 'yeah let's work together!!!'
Y'shtola should have had a lot more to say about the reflection shenanigans at the end of the MSQ. 'What the hell, I've been researching dimensional travel all this time and she's just stapling reflections together like its nothing?' Nope, it's the Scion again.
G'raha Tia got ONE moment to shine, and it ended up being one of the best quests in the expansion. Good job, Raha.
Urianger and Estinien just felt like they were there out of obligation. Their faces are Elezen, but their words are the Scion.

And DO NOT get me started on Krile. Once the humorous rock for the rest of the Scions, now just opens her mouth and stares whenever someone is like "yeah, my great great great grandpa saw a city once, maybe it was even gold?" THE SCION!!

Fire whoever wrote these characters, and while you're at it, fire the job designer too.

SE: “best we can do is another Y’shtola death-bait scene”

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Originally Posted by NegativeS

I forget which thread I saw this in, but it's like all the Scions' personalities were blended together and distilled down into a singular 'Scion' character, who shares Wuk's naive desire for peace-without-consequences and conveniently forgot all of their prior characterization.

If Alphinaud drew upon all the lessions he learned about trying to force different types of people into a single mold, he could have made the first half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead he's just the Scion.
If Alisaie was shown as her usual skeptical, wise-cracking self, she could have made the second half of the MSQ a lot more interesting, but instead she's just the Scion.
Thancred could have been worse, but they could have done so much with the 'ScIoNs WiLl Be At OdDs' thing with him that they just threw away in favor of more 'yeah let's work together!!!'
Y'shtola should have had a lot more to say about the reflection shenanigans at the end of the MSQ. 'What the hell, I've been researching dimensional travel all this time and she's just stapling reflections together like its nothing?' Nope, it's the Scion again.
G'raha Tia got ONE moment to shine, and it ended up being one of the best quests in the expansion. Good job, Raha.
Urianger and Estinien just felt like they were there out of obligation. Their faces are Elezen, but their words are the Scion.

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That would be this thread: The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ, and I highly recommend the read for anyone that didn't see it yet. It's one of the best explanations of how the characters are awfully written in Dawntrail, and how Dawntrail tries to ruin beloved characters by incompetence of the current writer.

And even though there's one good G'raha scene...for me it's still impossible to enjoy it considering it's surrounded by everything else, and immediately after everyone goes back to the cardboard cutouts they were before it. Even worse for G'raha, considering that awful ice cream scene. And even before that, he was only there to casually comment on his knowledge from the First, like it was just something he did last week at work and not a huge part of his life that he never talked about that lightly.
One single good quest doesn't save the whole.


I miss the Scions, and I want them back. They still have a lot of things to offer, they still have goals and wishes, and promises we have to fulfill. It's not time to retire them, but we need someone else writing them. And I hate that Dawntrail was so bad that there are people using it as an example of why we shouldn't have the Scions with us anymore. The characters are not the problem.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

And even though there's one good G'raha scene...for me it's still impossible to enjoy it considering it's surrounded by everything else, and immediately after everyone goes back to the cardboard cutouts they were before it. Even worse for G'raha, considering that awful ice cream scene. And even before that, he was only there to casually comment on his knowledge from the First, like it was just something he did last week at work and not a huge part of his life that he never talked about that lightly.
One single good quest doesn't save the whole.

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You know, I think my brain tried to do me a favor by forgetting about that ice cream scene.

Just...

Ugh...

Let's face it, they will be the "Insert here to solve the matter"

- Need stealth and espionage? Offscreen Thancred "This is Thancred, I was spying on the bla bla and found out this"
- Need diplomacy? Alphinaud and pasted on Alisaie as a bodyguard
- Need any magical / technological solution? Y'shtola / G'raha / Sharlayan already knows the answer, why bother adventuring at all or talking to locals, Sharlayan probably has a book on it. (Example: Thancred lacks ability to use aether : "OH Sharlayan just happened to come up with a instant teleporter that is experimental that Thancred can use to teleport!")
- Insert Urianger there too with longwinded theory speeches
- Need muscle? Estinien cameo

All of this would be fine, but it's written so tackily and lazily to be an instant solution instead of showing us what happens / people pondering over it, having moments of discovery and you know... being characters? So that's their role. They are their market cash cow, they won't get rid of them or cast them away too far from us for too long. I don't honestly mind them, but like many characters in this expansion they used them poorly. Oh I forgot about Krile? Yeah, SO DID THEY.

The Scions NEED to be retired.
The issue is, that we have a player base that will throw tantrums if they are retired.
Ideally, we would have a new set of companions, with the Scions appearing with cameos from time to time to assist within their specialties. The Scions have always been a very suffocating force in the story, they drain all the oxygen and brain cells when they are on screen because NO ONE in the world can be smarter or more competent than they are. That has always been a pet peeve of mine, I hated how all the Scions always have all the answers and old seasoned generals, Grand Company leaders, or Sharlayan scientists just... Don't. The world doesn't move until the Scions get there, and given that the WoL is a silent protagonist, that can't even be blamed on the protagonist.
So all these plot device tools fall upon the Scions, and it is... Vastly draining to see it happen, again and again, when I would love to see some other character be a badass for a moment and represent what they were written to be.

But, it won't ever happen. Which is a shame.

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Originally Posted by Connor

SE: “best we can do is another Y’shtola death-bait scene”

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Well I do have that on my MSQ bingo...

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Originally Posted by OMGJesuis66

The Scions NEED to be retired.
The issue is, that we have a player base that will throw tantrums if they are retired.
Ideally, we would have a new set of companions, with the Scions appearing with cameos from time to time to assist within their specialties. The Scions have always been a very suffocating force in the story, they drain all the oxygen and brain cells when they are on screen because NO ONE in the world can be smarter or more competent than they are. That has always been a pet peeve of mine, I hated how all the Scions always have all the answers and old seasoned generals, Grand Company leaders, or Sharlayan scientists just... Don't. The world doesn't move until the Scions get there, and given that the WoL is a silent protagonist, that can't even be blamed on the protagonist.
So all these plot device tools fall upon the Scions, and it is... Vastly draining to see it happen, again and again, when I would love to see some other character be a badass for a moment and represent what they were written to be.

But, it won't ever happen. Which is a shame.

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Perhaps not fully retire, but at least give them a break for one expansion. That way their return will be more welcomed and you can have time to set them up with the current/next story.

https://www.pcgamer.com/games/final-...in-the-future/

Finally, some answers on this from Yoshi-P!

"...if a character doesn't appear in one expansion, that doesn't mean they will never appear again. Rather, we are considering doing things in a certain order." Essentially, Yoshi-P sees a future in which FF14 selectively rotates its core characters (including the Scions of the Seventh dawn) based on what the story is concerned with, just in more deliberate and digestible groups:

So maybe in a given expansion, such and such a character will be the focus, and then in the next expansion, another group of characters will be the focus ... I think the possibility of going down this route is the highest."

If this is true, I am absolutely thrilled - this is just how I want them to do it!

That's all well and good but they need to keep that in mind when it comes to screentime. Look at Thancred and Urianger. They are on the character poster for Dawntrail https://i.redd.it/ekh3unbvuxac1.jpeg and they also have special slides in the Dawntrail websitehttps://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/dawntrail/story/ and yet, they have so little to do with the actual story. Heck, look at the image of the lines spoken per character https://imgur.com/EKq4GuO.

Urainger, a man who know to be verbose, almost excessively at times, doesn't even have 500 spoken lines. Here's the thing, I actually kinda don't care about that. Thancred and Urianger had their arcs fulfilled for the most part. But if these guys are on the cover, I would of expected them to of had a bigger role.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

But if these guys are on the cover, I would of expected them to of had a bigger role.

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I was looking forward to the friendly rivalry angle they were selling us going into DT. I loved the idea of competing with some of the Scions to breath some new life into their dynamic with WoL, and seeing them prominent in the cover art played into my hopes for what was coming.

And then all we got was Thancred being cheeky in a single moment in the first dungeon, and...that's it! That was the only rivalry moment in the whole game! We're back to all being on the same side and being besties right after pretty much, and then Thancred and Urianger leave and aren't seen again for most of the story. Did they play a bigger part in the early drafts that got cut? What happened here?

Either bring the Scions along and have them actually do things and matter to the story and characters around them, or don't bother bringing them along at all/give them little cameos and leave it at that.