With the launch of Dawntrail, a variety of issues where pointed out in FFXIV: Job Design, a lackluster story in Dawntrail, the stale gameplay through MSQ/Sidequests, formulaic reward and tome structure and so on.
Currently I'd like tackling one that we do not discussion often, but to me its one of the core (and intertwined) issues from FFXIV: those moments between dungeons and trials.
SQEX decided the WoL would take a backseat in DT. Its story would roll out with little to no player agency, meaning that for most of the time, player would arrive at places and watch things unfold.
Now, this issue did not arrive with Dawntrail (and is not one particular of XIV, as FF franchise is notorious for this talk, talk, talk instance), but for most of the FFXIV story we would observe our character take actions (even if not the best action at the time):
https://i.imgur.com/qp7oVhN.jpeg
These interactions helped to sell the illusion that our character was an active part of the world even if barely so. But can it be better? I definitely believe so!
From this point on, I'll be using some DT instances to highlight how the game could positively make the player more involved with it's own character.
Chapter 1: Respecting the Player Role
Doesn't it strike odd, that we use the trinity system but with the exception of dungeons and trials, every player must play the role of a DPS?
During our adventure we've met our share of aftermaths from enemy attacks, invasions and helped countless of people in distress and not once outside of role quests the game respected the player role fantasy sometimes going to the absurd of a healer being powerless to help a someone that was hurt...
Respecting player role would also mean that some mechanics could be easily introduced.
E.g.: During Tural invasion, a tank character would be reminded of the Wild Charge marker or pick up the tether.
A Healer character would be introduced to new special status ailments, Doom for example where you have to full heal an NPC or prevent him from bleeding out.
A DPS character would be focused on not stacking a marker on hurt NPCs and kill enemies quickly.
All those instances of "Aid character X" could respect player role within these minor instances.
Ch.1 TL;DR: Take player role in consideration when designing minor instances and quests interaction. It doesn't matter if we have 30 jobs, the number of roles has been the same since the start of the game.
Chapter 2: The multifaceted hero (Part One)
FFXIV is known for its jack-of-all-trades main character, however the quest approach complete ignores that.I'm not asking for a freeflow system where you can change classes at all times, but something as below.
E.g.: The Feat of Reeds where we have to help the Hanu with their failing crops.
Firstly we have to examine the fields and share what we found with our party.
The game gives us some generic options, but it should give us one "unlockable" answer by referring to our class (in this case BTN) making it an educated guess:
Option 1: These reeds look sick.
Option 2: Do I look like a damn botanist?
Option BTN: It looks like the soil has been drained of its nutrients.
This is a simple example, that makes our character life feel connected, and our previous experience could be used whenever a subject that make sense comes up.
Ch.2 TL;DR: Don't forget our character has a life away from our main combat role!
Chapter 3: The Multifaceted Hero (Part 2)
Many times throughout DT Main quest, there was an opportunity to let us have a more hands on approach.
E.g.: The train reinforcement sequence in Shaloaani, where a character that have crafter classes, could actively help out.
Objective: Deliver three pieces of lumber to reinforce the train.
Optional: Deliver three pieces of lumber HQ (acquired through crafting) to reinforce the train.
Same thing with the Xibruq Pibil Quest (CUL) and the Pelupelu trade Quest (where our crafters could enhance items to get more value)
Or any instance where we had to look for a rock, fish or plant.
I'll come back to those Optional Objectives soon.
Ch.3 TL;DR: Make optional objectives a thing and leverage our DoL/DoH Knowledge.
Chapter 4: Player Interaction
Final Fantasy notoriously have a problem of telling when you can show, and showing when you should definitely take part.
Dawntrail, unfortunately, brings this issue to a new level with several instances where the player should have a gameplay experience instead of watching a cutscene.
I'm going listing several instances of Dawntrail Quests where we had to watch a cutscene or take a passive stance. (note that items discussed on Chapter 3 also apply here)
1. Xibruq Pibil Quest, the cooking part could've been a mini game where we cut, prepare and roast ingredients using these minigames that are already in game and simply changing the UI to be appropriate to the context.
https://i.imgur.com/Rh43Tq8.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/AATpIFB.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/Twy5BF3.jpeg
2. Train Ride to Yasulany Station, we see a scene where the WoL is manning a mounted gun, this could easily be an instance of Air Force One, that's already in game.
https://i.imgur.com/37CvzJD.jpeg
3.Valigarmanda's Chase made Erenville and the WoL look for traces of Valigarmanda's wake.
When we come down the mountain, we find the Worlar's Echo in distress. (Chapter One rules apply here)
For this instance, instead of chasing Valigarmanda, the WoL would actively lead it away from the settlements with Erenville's help.
Using our trusty companion (that SQEX loves ignoring) we would race through Urqopacha, while dodging Valigarmanda dive bombs and AoEs, occasionally it would land and we would "fight it" while protecting Erenville.
Again chocobo Racing is already in game.
https://i.imgur.com/QhlnFhz.jpeg
https://i.imgur.com/kBOrWz4.jpeg
Ch.4 TL;DR: A myriad of systems is in place in FFXIV that are not leverage in any way to make much needed variety/respite in cutscene watching.
Chapter 5: Of Optional Objectives, Evaluation and Bonus Rewards
By now, I think I've made myself clear that I'd like more diverse gameplay elements during quests.
Does it means we need fail states for those experiences? Definitely not!
As a WoL and XIV structure, it would be unfeasible to have diverging states, however, we could definitely have evaluation and Bonus Rewards, that also are already in the game.
https://i.imgur.com/DoOAehx.png
Evaluation:
DoL/DoH: Collectability
Role:Correct execution of Role specific actions during quests (I.E: Did not let NPCs be incapacitated, mitigated markers correctly, removed status effect correctly)
Minigames: Overall Performance
For rewards:
Bonus EXP awarded to classes relevant to quest (Enough to make it worth the effort and not enough to feel obligatory.)
Materia is always relevant, can be sold for gil.
Again these systems are already in place even if there's need to create a player exclusive instance in the overworld: Levequests.
Ch.5 TL;DR: Don't be afraid to reward players that are engaging fully with the game and there's no need to penalize players that don't want to.
Conclusion
If you read through it all, thank you!
I think over the years FFXIV became an aggregate of disconnected systems that could indeed work together to make a more engaging and cohesive experience.
If anything I wrote resonates with you, please like or comment on this thread, (note that I tried to come up with simple ideas that use systems that are already in game to avoid costs/too much dev time (since the "No expenses spared" was kinda of lipservice))
I'm eager to read your impressions on how the FFXIV experience could be enhanced with new or existing systems!
If you're feeling generous, consider helping a Hrothgar out. (Yes, I'm shameless XP)
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...494210/?page=1
Thanks all!
FFXIV And Quest Design
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08-24-2024, 12:54 AMBalmung_GriffinFFXIV And Quest Design
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08-24-2024, 01:44 AMKranel_San
Well said! A major part of storytelling in video games is the player engagement. For example, if the situation is dire, don't tell me it's dire, but make me feel and believe it's dire! After all, I'm playing a video game, not reading a visual novel.
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08-24-2024, 02:06 AMRaikai
Pretty much on point diagnosis on why the questing experience is lacking.
And indeed, Gold Saucer minigames CAN be repurposed into actual MSQ minigames. I think the cooking trial is the most egregious example of this... You should control Wuk Lamat in that minigame! Since the WoL can have an advantage being a potential CUL. Currently the single one 'quest-game' we have is that one with the reticule target to find something on the screen. It could work the other way too: brand new minigames designed for the MSQ could be featured in the Gold Saucer later.
Now... even the actual active part where you get to fight things, is not good either! "Clear the roads of monsters, for the HanuHanu parade."... then clearing the road is fighting 2 spawned mobs in purple danger markers that die in 3 GCDs. And ironically they do have interesting "kill <x>" challenges in FATEs where you can see how far you can push pulling things. Why that kind of thing isn't translated to those quests? They're so afraid that players can't kill a handful of enemies that are perfectly doable if single pulled?
I feel if at least the questing experience was enhanced, the actual story, while still filled with a share of issues, wouldn't be as poorly received.
Oh, and by the way, they DO have different instances for roles. IIRC in the FF16 collab, if you're a healer, you get to see an extra tidbit of the WoL healing Clive, and I think something like that happens in Stormblood too. They can do it, they just don't for whatever reason... Is it time? Too time consuming to add those small bits to the cutscenes? Or different objectives on solo duties for other roles? -
08-24-2024, 02:33 AMKhryseis_AstraI really like these ideas! I would’ve loved to operate the train cannons a la Air Force One! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin
The important part is that these are all fun things. Unlike the “follow this person without being seen” quests we got so many of! lol -
08-24-2024, 07:13 AMVensaval
The questing experience is in desperate need for spice. It's become stagnant and dull (especially in Dawntrail). With how much they love reusing the search and stealth minigames, it's a wonder why they haven't experimented a bit more. Especially with player feedback over the years.
I need immersion in my RPG. If it's lacking moments that draw me in (or even worse; has too many moments that pull me out) of the experience/story then I'm eventually going to stop caring. And if I don't care, I don't play.
The Hildebrand quests for Endwalker honestly had me believing we were heading in the right direction for 7.0. -
08-24-2024, 07:40 AMAlice_Rivers
Yes, I love every idea you've put forward here, if only we could send this to the devs to read.
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08-25-2024, 10:57 AMBalmung_GriffinI think there's too much riding on the quality of the plot and storytelling, y'know? And it really shouldn't be that way, if a game is fun, it's fun period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raikai
And even if not for that, these little interactions and details really draws you in and actually enhance the story you're telling.
It's not all about the destination, but the journey itself.
I know, right! Making a thread like this is actually pretty time consuming (and English is not my first language so I try to double check if I'm getting my point through correctly)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers
I find FFXIV DEV / player interactions kinda weird, almost weekly I get an email reminding of in game events, or cash shop items, but I never, EVER received an email asking what I thought of the game, if there was something I really looking forward... (Capcom does this all the time)
Also, (and that's a thread I want to make sometime), I find really strange that SQEX don't make beta features and let us test and give our thoughts, they just commit to a line of thinking and hope for the best.
If Island Sanctuary, Lord of Verminion and Chocobo Racing had a beta period I guarantee you they would not be dead and forgotten like they are now.
But those are thoughts for another thread! I hope we can get this one through!
Yeah, we need more variety, there's so many things they could easily do, optional ways to go to the same place:Quote:
Originally Posted by Khryseis_Astra
- We need to get an item from an NPC, you could do a favor to him (like a normal quest), but maybe he's a Triple Triad enthusiast and we could challenge him to a mach and win the item.
The possibilities are endless, and honestly, this line of thinking would do wonders to SQEX as whole, they're really behind comparing to pretty much any great RPG from the last 15 years and from their Squaresoft days. -
09-02-2024, 02:03 AMKhryseis_AstraI would also like the NPCs in general to be more interactive outside the MSQ… we have all these waiting periods in between patches and expansions, and if you’re all caught up on side content, there’s not much to do. So why couldn’t I drop in on Y’shtola for a cup of tea and chat about the latest book she found in the restricted section? lol Or go bar-hopping with Thancred, or stargazing with Urianger? Teach Alphinaud to swim? Have a sparring match with Alisae? Paint with Krile? Have lunch with Hien and see how Doma’s doing? And I’m not talking romance sim here (although I wouldn’t be opposed to one). But these are our friends and colleagues and we can’t interact with them outside of the main story. Or how about being able to go to the Last Stand and get seated and served a cup of coffee? Just something that would make the world feel more alive and interactive outside of the MSQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin
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09-02-2024, 02:26 AMronibosch
A thousand times yes! I really think that making the MSQ more interactive is an absolute necessity at this point. Especially considering the quality dip in its writing as of late...
Don't you mean help a "Hrother" out? ;D ....I'll see myself out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Balmung_Griffin
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09-02-2024, 04:25 AMHallarem
Mandatory negative comment:
You are expecting way too much from an archaic japanese company with a janky engine, with most of their homecrowd in Japan being console peasants, limiting the amount the engine can pull. That can't even give Viera and Hrotgar hats.
I think we are reaching a dripfeed of QoL over several years and something drastic only if the game starts losing money.
I am a 100% sure Yoshi P and some of the team are working on another game or something on the backround. Until the money starts moving elsewhere, best get used to those same patch cycles and 2.2 housing items per every other patch, recoloured armour, invisible walls and lack of voice acting for quest npc's and beyond, that even indie companies and small developers can afford. -
09-02-2024, 07:10 AMGaddes
Yeah, I completely agree that involving our Disciples of the Hand/Land would go a long way to feeling like they're actually part of our character, because unfortunately up to this point it's felt like a very detached part of our WoL. Having the additional dialogue options is the easiest step, even more so if they did them in MSQ scenes that aren't voiced, so I really wish they'd add those at the bare minimum. But I particularly like the idea of your gathering/crafting jobs making you an expert when a scene calls for it, like the HanuHanu reeds or the taco making moments. They really missed some golden opportunities to spotlight those classes. And if they DID add these little touches, you'd probably get the added benefit of people who don't normally level those classes feeling encouraged to try them out so that they could also see those specialized moments for themselves.
It's kinda sad that the only moments I can think of where we got any real acknowledgement of our WoL's uniqueness is the maybe 2 times ever that we could attempt to join in with healing someone... and that's pretty much it. To my knowledge tanks never got a moment like that, which for some folks I know is a real sticking point in the Vault... -
09-03-2024, 10:32 PMMorphiana
In regards to the player interaction point of quests. I agree, it is frustrating when we only get to watch when certain things happen. The train scene in the most recent xpac should have been playable. WoW for all it's flaws does break up questing with vehicle based quests or quests that change your abilities. XIV'S MSQ at times let's you play as someone other big name but that's a rare treat that shouldn't be overused. MSQ and side quests can have engaging vehicle combat sections, sniper sections, giving the WoL temp. abilities for fun or letting them play as a lesser known NPC, etc.
There are ways to vary quest design outside of "do we want this to be a stealth quest, a pick up 3 return quest, a talk to this person quest, or using out binoculars to find something quest" as those aren't that different from one another or very engaging. They are just far easier to develop for.
One fun example would be playing as a bad guy NPC who has to avoid your WoL. It doesn't change much from the current stealth format, but if you're caught your WoL would instantly hit you with that classes hardest hitting ability. Would be awesome to be afraid of yourself!