Dying as healer

I like to queue for 4 man dungeons as a solo healer for fun and have been doing so for years. But, as a human, I make mistakes, and sometimes I end up dead during one of the bosses.

Think of this interaction on the other roles. I die as tank or DPS, 99% of the time I will be resurrected. But if I die on healer, I am beholden to my dps having picked one of the few classes in the game that can rez, or I just get to watch everyone else enjoy the fight. It's even worse in higher lvl dungeons as my team will have the self mit/heals to just drag the fight to the end without me (a fight that is longer now that I'm not there to contribute)

I want to play the game. I don't think it's fair that because I messed up once or twice during a fight that I'm stuck just watching for minutes while everyone else gets to play. Tank and DPS don't have to suffer through that nearly as much as healer does. Yes, there absolutely should be SOME punishment to death, obviously, but would it really hurt anyone if, say, 25secs or whatever after the healer dies and everyone else is still alive, the healer get resurrected? Even if it's just exclusive to 4 man dungeons.

I just can't stand being forced to do absolutely nothing because I made a dumb mistake. I'm not a God at this game, it will happen, and I think lessening the punishment here would do a lot to make the role less intimidating to new players.

that's why I think the penalty need a rework because of those situation or watching a tank solo a boss while everyone wait

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

that's why I think the penalty need a rework because of those situation or watching a tank solo a boss while everyone wait

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I smiled when I read this. During the last MGQ in a later dungeon the healer, myself and the other dps died with about 1/4 left on the boss. The tank, (not saying which class because I don't want nerfs on my own), solod the rest of the boss and we got the complete. I called him a hero and moved along very grateful hehe.

This just sounds like a time where you can experience some personal growth.

As you mentioned, we're all human and make mistakes. This does sometimes result in death. Yes, even when playing a healer. We need healers to queue up (premades notwithstanding), so one will be a healer. It's not the end of the world if you die as the healer. Oh no, we have to restart a boss battle that might be a whole 4 minutes from pull to completion at best. The party will be okay, and so will you. Part of playing a game is potentially being challenged once in awhile. If healers had an auto-res, where would the actual chance of losing go? Many people don't quite realize it without thinking about it, but reward with no risk of failure often doesn't feel as good in the long run.

In short, it's absolutely fair that you can die and the team ends up wiping or finishing the last 30 seconds of a boss without you. That most of the tanks can solo bosses given enough time is a whole other issue, but largely irrelevant here. If you die and there's no res DPS in the party, release and come back. It's not going to hurt anything to have an oopsie and try to learn from it.

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Originally Posted by Almandaragal

This just sounds like a time where you can experience some personal growth.

As you mentioned, we're all human and make mistakes. This does sometimes result in death. Yes, even when playing a healer. We need healers to queue up (premades notwithstanding), so one will be a healer. It's not the end of the world if you die as the healer. Oh no, we have to restart a boss battle that might be a whole 4 minutes from pull to completion at best. The party will be okay, and so will you. Part of playing a game is potentially being challenged once in awhile. If healers had an auto-res, where would the actual chance of losing go? Many people don't quite realize it without thinking about it, but reward with no risk of failure often doesn't feel as good in the long run.

In short, it's absolutely fair that you can die and the team ends up wiping or finishing the last 30 seconds of a boss without you. That most of the tanks can solo bosses given enough time is a whole other issue, but largely irrelevant here. If you die and there's no res DPS in the party, release and come back. It's not going to hurt anything to have an oopsie and try to learn from it.

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OP's problem isn't wiping or the party finishing up the last 30 seconds without them, their problem is basically what you call "largely irrelevant here": having to wait for a long time for the tank to finish soloing the boss, maybe with the help of some dps for at least part of the battle.

I agree, an auto ress for healers can't be the solution, but it is a fact that the punishment for the healer making a fatal mistake is pretty harsh in 4 man content, either for the healer personally or for the whole party. I'm not sure what the solution would look like though. Tanks not being able to solo bosses is probably a part of it. Maybe making healers more durable could be another part.

Maybe phoenix downs can be useful during combat and outside POTD in this case rather than bringing back spells on other jobs than red mage and summoner.

My only complaint is that randomly every 5mins, and sometimes as low as 30s, i get roughly 2 seconds of lag. So as much as I like to occasionally play healer, like OPs post, doesnt matter if im dead. So Ive reserved playing healer only when its 8man content. (I normally main RDM, but due to the same issue, ive been playing tank for the 99 stacks of vuln)

The issue isn't that you die and can't be brought back to life, it's that you die and everyone else lives. In a game with the Role Trinity, every job needs to depend on the others. DPS and tanks shouldn't be able to stay alive for meaningful periods of time without a healer's support; the times when they can stay alive represent a glaring flaw in the Trinity.

In most fights, DPS will end up dying to unavoidable damage, but tanks can (slowly) solo the majority of boss fights because their sustain is through the roof. Outside of double-pulls, healers generally don't have much of a job to do.

I don't understand why Phoenix Downs are so limited. You can only carry one per person anyway, so it's not like they'd trivialize anything. Is this or is this not a Final Fantasy game?

Imagine how everyone who dies after you and is also unable to rejoin, or who on every single raid waits patiently for their lowest priority res also feel, because you're not uniquely inconvenienced.

What's more, this entire "If I die, we deserve to wipe" sense is insanely toxic.

I can get that it really sucks and clearly it can make healers feel rather unneeded there in the first place; but for the time there isn't alot you can do on this one. It's mostly about respecting other player's time and reseting a Dungeon boss can add a fair amount of extra time to a run. (Assuming of course both DPS are still alive).
I'm not sure an auto rez is the right way here though, Perhap some kind of duty action tied into the actual duty itself (I feel this would give better control over which duty would have it or not), It could be that when someone is OKed in a set duty a glowing orb appears over there body and if a player runs over that orb they are given a duty action with a single charge (a basic Rez spell). This would mean that it would be up to any DPS to grab the orb and Rez the healer in question. Of course the duty action charge would be lost on death or if the fight itself ends (Just to prevent players holding onto it). I know this seem like I'm making it overly complex (because I am) but it changes the idea from a passive rez to an active rez.

Also I am trying to remember if any of the DF light party duties have duty actions already in them...I don't remember any myself but there might be, which would make this difficult.

In tera they solved this by just allowing healers to cast a buff on themselves that would auto-revive them sort of like the Regulators do for the characters in Solution 9. In this way, healers essentially had a second life since they were squishy and vitally important. Made learning new content as a healer feel way less nerve racking too, because it didn't feel like everyone else in your team had infinite opportunities to screw up except you. :)

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

In tera they solved this by just allowing healers to cast a buff on themselves that would auto-revive them sort of like the Regulators do for the characters in Solution 9. In this way, healers essentially had a second life since they were squishy and vitally important. Made learning new content as a healer feel way less nerve racking too, because it didn't feel like everyone else in your team had infinite opportunities to screw up except you. :)

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Here's an idea.

New Healer role action (Level 64): Reraise.
Cast Time: 8 seconds (Recast 2.5 seconds)
Cooldown: 60 seconds.
Effect: Grants "Reraise" to a target for 120 seconds. If target reaches 0 HP, "Reraise" is consumed, fully heals the target, and is replaced with "Aether Sickness" for 60 seconds.
Aether Sickness effect: Decreases Strength, Dexterity, Mind, and Intelligence by 10%. (Essentially a weaker version of Weakness/Brink of Death).
*Can only be cast while in combat.
*Cannot be cast on a player under the effect of Aether Sickness.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Here's an idea.

New Healer role action (Level 64): Reraise.
Cast Time: 8 seconds (Recast 2.5 seconds)
Cooldown: 60 seconds.
Effect: Grants "Reraise" to a target for 120 seconds. If target reaches 0 HP, "Reraise" is consumed, fully heals the target, and is replaced with "Aether Sickness" for 60 seconds.
Aether Sickness effect: Decreases Strength, Dexterity, Mind, and Intelligence by 10%. (Essentially a weaker version of Weakness/Brink of Death).
*Can only be cast while in combat.
*Cannot be cast on a player under the effect of Aether Sickness.

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I think the general idea isn't bad, but imo it would need to be more restrictive. Like: it's only a self cast, and it can't be used if you are under the effect of Weakness/Brink of Death. That way you can survive the occasional screwup, with emphasis on occasional.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

Here's an idea.

New Healer role action (Level 64): Reraise.
Cast Time: 8 seconds (Recast 2.5 seconds)
Cooldown: 60 seconds.
Effect: Grants "Reraise" to a target for 120 seconds. If target reaches 0 HP, "Reraise" is consumed, fully heals the target, and is replaced with "Aether Sickness" for 60 seconds.
Aether Sickness effect: Decreases Strength, Dexterity, Mind, and Intelligence by 10%. (Essentially a weaker version of Weakness/Brink of Death).
*Can only be cast while in combat.
*Cannot be cast on a player under the effect of Aether Sickness.

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I like the idea but I prefer it's best to be available out of combat. Something that works like motifs that it gets insta-cast out of combat but with long CD during combat will also do. We already have weakness after raise so there's no need to apply it again. That'd be a huge penalty if we keep brink of death.

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Originally Posted by Avoidy

In tera they solved this by just allowing healers to cast a buff on themselves that would auto-revive them sort of like the Regulators do for the characters in Solution 9. In this way, healers essentially had a second life since they were squishy and vitally important. Made learning new content as a healer feel way less nerve racking too, because it didn't feel like everyone else in your team had infinite opportunities to screw up except you. :)

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Yeah, this is kind of my take on it. Life 3 / Reraise is a thing that already exists in FF, so adding it in FF14 as a buff specifically usable in low-end content would be fine to me. Basically just the healer version of "tank privilege".

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

The issue isn't that you die and can't be brought back to life, it's that you die and everyone else lives. In a game with the Role Trinity, every job needs to depend on the others. DPS and tanks shouldn't be able to stay alive for meaningful periods of time without a healer's support; the times when they can stay alive represent a glaring flaw in the Trinity.

In most fights, DPS will end up dying to unavoidable damage, but tanks can (slowly) solo the majority of boss fights because their sustain is through the roof. Outside of double-pulls, healers generally don't have much of a job to do.

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This sounds the most correct to me. I didn't really want to come in here screaming for nerfs to anyone's class/job but like. It happened again the other night, where I was in the DT dungeon with the giant guy at the end. Died at the green wind part and proceeded to sit and watch my remaining team finish it for the next half of his hp bar. Only for them to wipe at .3% anyway.

I am not married to the idea of an auto revive. Just that I want to actually play the game. Each time this happens to me on healer I remember how this absolutely doesn't happen to me on tank/dps, and it ends my healer q session for the day.

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Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Imagine how everyone who dies after you and is also unable to rejoin, or who on every single raid waits patiently for their lowest priority res also feel, because you're not uniquely inconvenienced.

What's more, this entire "If I die, we deserve to wipe" sense is insanely toxic.

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Well, if you read what my og post said. I'm talking specifically 4 man dungeons. Bc if I die on healer in a 4 man and we don't have either of the 2 rez dps then I am dead for the remainder of the fight. And with the current balance state of tank/damage, they don't really need heals to keep them up. They can just force me to sit there for minutes on end, doing nothing while they get to play the game. It's not fun, it's not how ppl should be punished for dying on healer.

Am I the only one who thinks any form of Reraise just makes things too forgiving ?

I mean, what’s the point of having mechanics if healers can just say ‘Naa, I won’t do this one’, kill themselves then get back up while everyone else is running around like headless chickens actually doing the mechanics lol. Wouldn’t they need to redesign the entire battle system to accomodate it? Otherwise it’d break most encounters. I guess they could make it so it only takes effect if at least one other party member is still alive to avoid using it for ‘cheesing’ mechanics

Personally I think if they’re not willing to extend Raise capabilities so other jobs besides RDM/SMN (phys ranged?) can actually assist healers, they should just make Phoenix Downs useable during combat. Keep the ‘1 at a time restriction’ if necessary so each non-healer/rdm/SMN can only raise once per dungeon. Reraise seems a little too much to me though.
It seems a bit weird to me for healers to be able to completely undo their mistakes while other roles just have to lie on the floor and regret their life choices.

Though, I could see it causing an influx of healers since they’d essentially become ‘easy mode’ compared to other roles, though I’m not sure that’d be a net positive lol

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Originally Posted by Connor

‘1 at a time restriction’

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A 5 minute cooldown would also work. Tie it to the same cooldown as Tinctures, too.

WE had a 7/8 deaths on eternal queen same here not naming tank was able to along side wuk lamat who did damn near 27 million on boss was able to kill eternal queen on 2nd phase alone...needless to say ppl were stunned.

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Originally Posted by Jaxtaro

Imagine how everyone who dies after you and is also unable to rejoin, or who on every single raid waits patiently for their lowest priority res also feel, because you're not uniquely inconvenienced.

What's more, this entire "If I die, we deserve to wipe" sense is insanely toxic.

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Agreed entirely. The one caveat I'll say is that if a boss is 20%+ and only the tank is alive, that tank should wipe and restart, as it'll be faster.