whats with MCH Flamethrower

For a lvl70 Ability it really sucks. no range with 8y radius, while all the other AOE have 12y range and 12y radius. Can they please explain to us why the limit it coverage while making adds have bigger hitboxes that push other adds away. increase the range to match the other AOE's so we can use this ability, since it's not going anywhere.

aoe dog? dmg dog?

Brother, that's an emote that does a bit of damage for 10 seconds in case your cat pukes in dungeon.

Probably one of the most ill-conceived capstone abilities in the entire game. Not just mechanically, but also thematically (a flamethrower that doesn't interact with your heat resource in any way).

I'm convinced they don't want to waste the money that went into the mocap work for that animation, and that's why they've never done away with it completely.

Fills the same niche as summoners Physick

it aren't as bad as people think the tick is really quick but I do agree that it should work with the heat meters to make it stronger

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Fills the same niche as summoners Physick

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it's fun to type -I WILL SAVE YOU- and just do like 2k heals xx) make a good meme xx)

It has no range and it’s missing 4y radius. U have to be in the beating zone to use it. Once you move that’s it, I am a damn range not a melee. All risk no reward.

I'd be okay for an all risk, big rewards for it.

The actual question is more, what are the devs even doing? Does it take like, a crazy budget and resources to find a creative use for this skill? It's been like this for 2+ expansions by now...

Flamethrower could be an animation upgrade to Auto Crossbow and it would still be more interesting than the current implementation,

it got its main purpose removed when they reworked heat in ShB and hasn't gotten a new one.

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Originally Posted by Nero-Voidstails

it aren't as bad as people think the tick is really quick but I do agree that it should work with the heat meters to make it stronger

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It's that bad. Once you get Scattergun, it's barely a gain over Scattergun if you take in account the generated heat. And with the upgraded Hypercharge, it's even worse.
You can unbind it and use Scattergun instead, you'll find the same results.

But the biggest problem is that Flamethrower is as satisfying to use as watering my grandmother's garden.

At the very least to make it remotely viable, is have it increase your heat gauge. Since auto crossbow doesn't give you CD reductions to your ogcds, it would make aoe less sad to do.

Looking at the animation, the attack comes from your gun so it makes me think they could rework Flamethrower to be aoe Blazing Shot, and then rework Auto Crossbow (which uses the multi tool) to be aoe Air Anchor.

Flamethrower is a DPS increase under certain circumstances. If your option is to Scattergun for the next 10s and your Drill won't cap charges and Air Anchor and Chainsaw aren't coming up, and Wildfire isn't due... if you can safely stand somewhere for those 10s, it is a gain. Scattergun is 640 potency for 10s. Flamethrower is 800. But Scattergun would gain 40 heat. That shrinks the gains but not by all that much.

Given it is a capstone ability, it should do something better than it does.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

Looking at the animation, the attack comes from your gun so it makes me think they could rework Flamethrower to be aoe Blazing Shot, and then rework Auto Crossbow (which uses the multi tool) to be aoe Air Anchor.

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I like the idea actually.

What I'd also add to flamethrower since it's a channeled ability is just make it consume 10 heat per tick (so technically 110 heat for the total 10s, which would reduce it to 9s, but that's not a problem imo since you could use it any time you want and have heat for it), with potency adjustments. I'd also add a walking cast ability to it so you can wiggle a little in the middle of trash packs, until you eventually have to cut it short and move if required, but I think it's something way harder on their side to make a reality since FT is a glorified ground dot that gets placed in front of you whenever you use it so to me it would just be the icing on the cake really.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'd be okay for an all risk, big rewards for it.

The actual question is more, what are the devs even doing? Does it take like, a crazy budget and resources to find a creative use for this skill? It's been like this for 2+ expansions by now...

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That’s what I want to know also. Because the last CEO and current said they was throwing more money into FFXIV. And I don’t see it. Lvl 94 and 98 for jobs being trait upgrades and adding 5 sec to an old ability, is lazy. What happen to the 5 new skills to unlock, this is 90 to 100. The big pay off.

Just need for it to charge the heat gauge like samurai meditate if you’re not allowed to move. Or make it so you can move and keep the animation.

SE: “Flamethrower being a glorified emote is totally part of Machinist’s identity we’re doing this to make them fun and unique’

It’s hilarious that they’ve made various channelled abilities through the game’s lifespan and literally not a single one works as intended. Yet they insist on keeping them exactly as they are . Frankly, it’s extremely stupid

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Originally Posted by dspguy

Flamethrower is a DPS increase under certain circumstances. If your option is to Scattergun for the next 10s and your Drill won't cap charges and Air Anchor and Chainsaw aren't coming up, and Wildfire isn't due... if you can safely stand somewhere for those 10s, it is a gain. Scattergun is 640 potency for 10s. Flamethrower is 800. But Scattergun would gain 40 heat. That shrinks the gains but not by all that much.

Given it is a capstone ability, it should do something better than it does.

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thats the point you cant stand anywhere when it has no range. everybody and their mom have huge aoes to run out of. i wouldnt care if i could use Flamethrower from a safe distance.

I use it in dungeons on trash pulls. But only under specific circumstances as noted earlier. They could make it a clear winner (sorta? kinda?) if it increased your heat gauge more than 40% over those 10s. Maybe 80%.

I would like to see its damage increased at higher levels, maybe interact with heat like some have suggested. But Flamethrower is a really cool and unique skill for Machinist in dungeons, one of my favorites, so I hope it just receives some buffs :)

It's always fascinated me that a literal flamethrower doesn't produce or spend heat. I'd probably have it generate heat, gains increasing depending on the number of enemies it hits. It would do a lot on big pull trash clears and probably be a niche on fights with packs of adds but that's fine because it's a capstone ability, it's meant to be something that can be fancy. There's also a sweet irony in the fact that the whole Machinist role is movement taxed and our only ability that literally requires us to stand still and can fail to do anything if the enemy is moved out of it is our weakest.

It really should be removed or upgraded because as it stands it's pretty useless.

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Originally Posted by Ramiee

Fills the same niche as summoners Physick

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More like the whole class is designed after Edgar Figaro from FFVI. It HAD to be there. Remove it and it will be a shitstorm, even if everyone agrees it's useless. It would be like removing jumps from the dragon, Esuna from the WM or the melee combo from the Red Mage. It's deeply rooted in the FF lore of the class. You can't remove it.

I only used it as an emote, until I realised it didn't display on other people if they were on "simplified" for other teammates battle effect (which most people are, else you can't see anything). Now I just sometimes use it for fun when doing dungeons.

They should turn it into a flamethrower drone and we have some reason to use battery outside of bosses

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Originally Posted by Connor

SE: “Flamethrower being a glorified emote is totally part of Machinist’s identity we’re doing this to make them fun and unique’

It’s hilarious that they’ve made various channelled abilities through the game’s lifespan and literally not a single one works as intended. Yet they insist on keeping them exactly as they are . Frankly, it’s extremely stupid

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Hey, Apokalypsis fulfills an interesting niche. The niche only exists due to the hot mess that is Moon Flute, but it exists.

Flamethrower is simply bad.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

It would be like removing jumps from the dragon.

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Yeah imagine if they did that

Mao kinda worried. The more Mao keeps readings about MCHs plights the more Mao realizings thems troubles is far FAR worse than whats BLMs goings through rights now. Can anyones tell Mao if SE has recognized MCHs troubles? Is any helps coming?

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Probably one of the most ill-conceived capstone abilities in the entire game. Not just mechanically, but also thematically (a flamethrower that doesn't interact with your heat resource in any way).

I'm convinced they don't want to waste the money that went into the mocap work for that animation, and that's why they've never done away with it completely.

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it's so incredibly niche it needs like 8-10 mobs for it to be worth using.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao kinda worried. The more Mao keeps readings about MCHs plights the more Mao realizings thems troubles is far FAR worse than whats BLMs goings through rights now. Can anyones tell Mao if SE has recognized MCHs troubles? Is any helps coming?

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BLM main here, and what we are going through is not even in the same ballpark as what MCH has suffered. they havent been relevant since Heavensward.

It's quite literally an emote that stops doing damage as soon as you move.

It should have been upgraded to a placeable turret that spits out electric webs or a circle blue flames.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Hey, Apokalypsis fulfills an interesting niche. The niche only exists due to the hot mess that is Moon Flute, but it exists.

Flamethrower is simply bad.

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That's exactly how SB Flamethrower could be used for AoE: overheat and snapshot FT at the end of the window to let it run through the whole barrel lockout, and it was very powerful (on top of not using any TP). We can whine all we want on how overheat and FT were clunky, they do interacted in interesting ways with the whole kit.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Mao kinda worried. The more Mao keeps readings about MCHs plights the more Mao realizings thems troubles is far FAR worse than whats BLMs goings through rights now. Can anyones tell Mao if SE has recognized MCHs troubles? Is any helps coming?

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They haven't since Stormblood. And every time they take a glance at the job, I actually wish they didn't.

They can simply give Flamethrower a combo action. We have so many actions they removed. Use a grenade shot or Bishop turret as a AOE setup, a grenade or tool with a highly flammable liquid, pressing the ability again will activate flamethrower.

To tell the truth I hate that you unlock your last heated shot till 64. All heated shots should be unlock at 60, a mid combo weapon skill shouldnt be a capstone. they can easy bring back any ability or weapon skill that can combo into flamethrower, how they did Full Metal.

And what’s with lvl 30 skill, you can’t fully utilize it till lvl 35. I SWEAR THE DEVS WANT YOU TO BUY JUMP POTIONS BECAUSE LEVELING JOBS SUCK HARD NOW. THEY TAKE AND TAKE BUT GIVE BACK LITTLE.

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Originally Posted by Valence

That's exactly how SB Flamethrower could be used for AoE: overheat and snapshot FT at the end of the window to let it run through the whole barrel lockout, and it was very powerful (on top of not using any TP). We can whine all we want on how overheat and FT were clunky, they do interacted in interesting ways with the whole kit.

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There's good interaction and bad interactions.
Flamethrower and Anatman falls in the bad one, there was so many downsides the current one is miles better than the one we had back in SB.

The scenario you describe only used to be in dungeons and you wouldn't feel any feedback.
In single target scenario it was even worse you had to fumble to get the timing right but even then a packet loss resulted in terrible consequences.

In my opinion they could explore better ways by completely reworking Flamethrower and making it the capstone skill it's supposed to be.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

There's good interaction and bad interactions.
Flamethrower and Anatman falls in the bad one, there was so many downsides the current one is miles better than the one we had back in SB.

The scenario you describe only used to be in dungeons and you wouldn't feel any feedback.
In single target scenario it was even worse you had to fumble to get the timing right but even then a packet loss resulted in terrible consequences.

In my opinion they could explore better ways by completely reworking Flamethrower and making it the capstone skill it's supposed to be.

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Hard disagree.

SB single target flamethrower wouldn't have been that janky for ping had we had overheat stacks back then (I played on NA at 200ms ping in SB, I would know how painful it was). AoE FT was great and that's exactly how Apokapylsis is currently used on BLU as well. It's a great example of how to make a full use of powerful snapshots to cover for a downtime window. The feedback was the damage done and seeing mobs melt. Else I'm not even sure what you even mean by "feedback". Nothing has feedback in this game beyond the damage application and funny numbers. If you mean that FT's damage numbers on screen still show as dot damage in tiny red numbers, then I agree, it sucks.

I don't even see how anatman even compares.

The best solution to FT would simply be an interaction with Bio Blaster's dot making it explode or something.

But then, MCH does have more pressing matters with their AoE rotation, like Auto crossbow not interacting with the ogcd recharge timers.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Hard disagree.

SB single target flamethrower wouldn't have been that janky for ping had we had overheat stacks back then (I played on NA at 200ms ping in SB, I would know how painful it was). AoE FT was great and that's exactly how Apokapylsis is currently used on BLU as well. It's a great example of how to make a full use of powerful snapshots to cover for a downtime window. The feedback was the damage done and seeing mobs melt. Else I'm not even sure what you even mean by "feedback". Nothing has feedback in this game beyond the damage application and funny numbers. If you mean that FT's damage numbers on screen still show as dot damage in tiny red numbers, then I agree, it sucks.

I don't even see how anatman even compares.

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Yes, you don't clearly see the damages as they appear like dots, and they're spread on 11 stacks.
The single target problem was annoying as you pressed Flamethrower for 1 seconds then interrupted it. It was only used to make the jump from 95 heat to 100.
Barely had time to see a spew of fire before you interrupted it.

A button that just makes you jump to overheat mode was exactly the request from the playerbase.

It compares to ShB Anatman how server ping and packet loss affected a resource gauge, can just screw you and be the difference between a powerful opener/reopener or a garbage one.
The current Flamethrower belongs in the garbage bin to build a completely new one.

...just make it give Heat gauge like it used to in Stormblood. That was literally the purpose in Stormblood - it was to initiate Overheat.

We don't overheat anymore, but we have a heatgauge. If it actually gave like 10 gauge per tick as long as it collides with an enemy or something it would be significantly stronger than what it is now.

No need to be fancy, just give it Heat.

Give it heat, or make it consume heat for a lot more potency, I don't care, it's not hard to do, it won't ruin SE's precious savage/trial balance, and it will make the skill actually useful and fun to use.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Yes, you don't clearly see the damages as they appear like dots, and they're spread on 11 stacks.
The single target problem was annoying as you pressed Flamethrower for 1 seconds then interrupted it. It was only used to make the jump from 95 heat to 100.
Barely had time to see a spew of fire before you interrupted it.

A button that just makes you jump to overheat mode was exactly the request from the playerbase.

It compares to ShB Anatman how server ping and packet loss affected a resource gauge, can just screw you and be the difference between a powerful opener/reopener or a garbage one.
The current Flamethrower belongs in the garbage bin to build a completely new one.

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Firstly depending on the rotation used, you'd do 2 ticks of FT instead of one because you entered overheat from sub 90 heat (I think it was the optimal, standard 3 ammo low latency opener, and one of the 2 ammo rotations had one pre burst proc pattern that required to cooldown and get 2 ticks instead of 1), which rooted you in place for 2s at minimum instead of 1. I do remember being among all of the people that asked for this FT trick to be changed though, and even today I'm not defending the design of that since fucking it up and cutting it too early meant not overheating and literally ruining your burst + delaying your barrel lockout timer after which threw everything up in shamble in terms of drifting after, which wast he real offender. Cutting it too late was painful since it removed one GCD from overheat, but at least it was recoverable after and would have been fixed with the current stacks we have.

The only thing I'm defending is that it actually served as a cast in certain rotations or specific cases after downtime where you'd end up with a lot less heat than planned (for those of you who defend rphys casts), which made the skill useful, core to the rotation, and also introduced variations in how much time you'd have to channel FT depending on the context: instant and no root if just one tick, and a variable channel rooting you in place if more than one tick. What I miss isn't the jank, but the job actually asking the player to identify their current proc state and heat state before burst and input the correct amount of flamethrower to burst.

Also, I was specifically reacting to the mention of AoE FT, which was used way differently than this and ha literally no jank attached to it, much like BLU Apokalypsis currently works.

Note: Anatman was based on server ticks, FT has, thank fuck, never been tied to server ticks but actor ticks (like dots and ground dots, but every 1s instead like Apokalypsis).

Anyway we definitely do agree that current FT has to change.

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Originally Posted by WeakestZenosEnjoyer

Flamethrower could be an animation upgrade to Auto Crossbow and it would still be more interesting than the current implementation,

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And I'd go as far as say it also makes it somewhat tricky by auto-firing the 5 shots and you can only walk. So you gotta pick when to use it well, sure. In return it should do quite high damage and scorch the ground, causing a DoT effect for 10-15 seconds to anything that stays inside.