Nothing will get fixed if the community allows culture warriors to seize control

How much do you want to bet that SE now believes people dissatisfied about Wuk Lamat are all just people who are more interested in wokeness or anti-wokeness or culture war BS?

The community needs to speak up and say: no, this isn't us.

99% of people dissatisfied with Wuk Lamat are dissatisfied about the poor writing, poor characterization, poor quality control, poor pacing, and frankly what is an extremely obvious siphoning of resources to let junior devs helm the ship so senior devs can make some other third project that none of us paid for.

It's time to denounce people who want to twist criticisms into culture war BS and focus on the issues: the horrible job designs, the lackluster undertuned raids, the atrocious story, and broken, poorly thought out systems like DC travel.

What's a culture warrior?

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Originally Posted by Volgia

What's a culture warrior?

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People who want to talk about whatever is the latest outrage on Twitter, almost always about identity politics.

Identity politics is not the reason DC travel is so broken. Not the reason you can clear M4S with 5 deaths and not even see enrage on day 3. Not the reason the story is so poorly written it reads more like something you see on Wattpad. Not the reason job design is so creatively bankrupt you have several jobs getting a new flashy animation and that's pretty much the extent of their upgrades for DT.

But no, everyone just wants to talk about the VA drama.

Wuk Lamat is a good character and the story was enjoyable. Do you really need to have multiple threads about how much you hate Wuk Lamat?

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Wuk Lamat is a good character and the story was enjoyable. Do you really need to have multiple threads about how much you hate Wuk Lamat?

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That's almost like, your opinion

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Wuk Lamat is a good character and the story was enjoyable

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I find it funny how every time someone defends the story they cannot actually explain why Wuk Lamat is a well-written character beyond "good" or "I liked it though".

Meanwhile the critiques went in-depth and explained exactly why we thought the characterization was poor.

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Originally Posted by wildvenonat

Wuk Lamat is a good character and the story was enjoyable. Do you really need to have multiple threads about how much you hate Wuk Lamat?

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Well, doesn't the fact those threads exist tell you their necessity, or at least who how strong the sentiment.

I remember back in EW, the forums were flooded with positive threads, did you have problem with that? Or you only take issue when it's negative?

If one end of the spectrum exist, it's only natural for the others to exist as well.

After all, you're free to make as many thread as you want to express your positive vibe. Like I said, a lot of people did that for EW, why don't you now?

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

I find it funny how every time someone defends the story they cannot actually explain why Wuk Lamat is a well-written character beyond "good" or "I liked it though".

Meanwhile the critiques went in-depth and explained exactly why we thought the characterization was poor.

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The sad thing is, it's OK to like something that's not good. I have no issue with people saying they enjoyed Dawntrail, but don't tell me it's well constructed.

ït is a very small fragment of the actual player base who is on the fora and a very few that cause a stir.

The same it is with streamers.

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Originally Posted by Themarvin

ït is a very small fragment of the actual player base who is on the fora and a very few that cause a stir.

The same it is with streamers.

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"the side that i dont like clearly is the minority"

Nothing will change if we allow rmt botters to troll post on the forums either, yet here we are.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Well, doesn't the fact those threads exist tell you their necessity, or at least who how strong the sentiment.

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There are multiple threads by literally the same person.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

People who want to talk about whatever is the latest outrage on Twitter, almost always about identity politics.

Identity politics is not the reason DC travel is so broken. Not the reason you can clear M4S with 5 deaths and not even see enrage on day 3. Not the reason the story is so poorly written it reads more like something you see on Wattpad. Not the reason job design is so creatively bankrupt you have several jobs getting a new flashy animation and that's pretty much the extent of their upgrades for DT.

But no, everyone just wants to talk about the VA drama.

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I think your anger is misplaced. Sometimes when criticizing these things today (which, tbh, has been a thing since the release of Shadowbringers) you will always find some dude bringing out that the reason this happened is because Square Enix invested way too much money in the "ethics" department and the conversation will devolve from there.

As for the story, this hatred for the MSQ was up in EW, SB and even ShB at some point. If you don't believe me just look in the forums.

For instance ... EW is bad: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/470440

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Originally Posted by Volgia

As for the story, this hatred for the MSQ was up in EW, SB and even ShB at some point. If you don't believe me just look in the forums.

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Criticisms will always exist but the magnitude is far more substantial this time round. Please don't make a false equivalence.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I think your anger is misplaced. Sometimes when criticizing these things today (which, tbh, has been a thing since the release of Shadowbringers) you will always find some dude bringing out that the reason this happened is because Square Enix invested way too much money in the "ethics" department and the conversation will devolve from there.

As for the story, this hatred for the MSQ was up in EW, SB and even ShB at some point. If you don't believe me just look in the forums.

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A quick look at review scores proves the MSQ hate is way worst with DT. And it's warranted. The story in DT is filled with issues.
I won't beat a dead horse and repeat them all though. We already have hundreds of pages fully explaining why people didn't like the story.

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Originally Posted by SophiaDL

That's almost like, your opinion

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Its my opinion too. I got no issues with story or VA as a whole. Some quests perhaps werent to my liking and some lines could bave been done better prop but on the whole i am happy.

The garbage graphics update severely impacted the accessibility of this game and it's atrocious. The constant glow makes it feel like I'm in a casino and so does the way Square gambles away my sub money.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

A quick look at review scores proves the MSQ hate is way worst with DT. And it's warranted. The story in DT is filled with issues.
I won't beat a dead horse and repeat them all though. We already have hundreds of pages fully explaining why people didn't like the story.

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Review scores are a bad way to judge appreciation. You only have to look at the principle of review bombing. Also arent you more motivated to put it in a review ifyou have something you dont like? People who ate satisfied just play the game.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Criticisms will always exist but the magnitude is far more substantial this time round. Please don't make a false equivalence.

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I mean I guess you weren't there to see the 1000 pages detailing on how Endwalker MSQ was the worst of the worst. I don't know where the false equivalence here is, but let me tell you, you hang out for long in these forums, that are just a sewage of complaints and echo chamber, and you're very likely to be infected with it's negativity.

This is just me trying to reach out if you're really arguing in good faith here. You might not like Dawntrail for a bunch of reasons, but it's wrong to say the magnitude of doom wasn't the same.

Thank God.

The other thread got deleted by the mods and I started crying because I lost my entertaining reading material.

Thank you, Titanman.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Review scores are a bad way to judge appreciation. You only have to look at the principle of review bombing. Also arent you more motivated to put it in a review ifyou have something you dont like? People who ate satisfied just play the game.

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I've stopped trusting reviews when Elden Ring's DLC got review bombed as the worst thing Fromsoft ever released.

Titanman or not, I somewhat agree. The more the argument leans into identity politics, the more the devs might be inclined to err on the side of those who don't even play the game.

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Originally Posted by Caitlinzulu

Review scores are a bad way to judge appreciation. You only have to look at the principle of review bombing. Also arent you more motivated to put it in a review ifyou have something you dont like? People who ate satisfied just play the game.

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That's alright. You can believe whatever you want online. I however agree with the bad reviews as it's a good reflection of how I and many others I know feel about the story.
So to me, those reviews speak the truth.

Yeah, real world culture and politics should be kept out of game feedback.

New year, new dumb buzz words.

Everyone that pays to play this game is entitled to their opinion, even if you don't like it, even if you don't agree. Everyone should share how they feel, there is no guarantee any of our feedback (valid or not) will be taken into consideration. But the best way to make a splash is to encourage more public facing entities to discuss their hypes or gripes. Publicity is the only way to be noticed by the idiots in charge who care more about finding ways to use AI to cut corners than releasing a quality item. (I'm referring to SE's overall interest and goals, this isn't a claim that DT was written by AI.)

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

How much do you want to bet that SE now believes people dissatisfied about Wuk Lamat are all just people who are more interested in wokeness or anti-wokeness or culture war BS?

The community needs to speak up and say: no, this isn't us.

99% of people dissatisfied with Wuk Lamat are dissatisfied about the poor writing, poor characterization, poor quality control, poor pacing, and frankly what is an extremely obvious siphoning of resources to let junior devs helm the ship so senior devs can make some other third project that none of us paid for.

It's time to denounce people who want to twist criticisms into culture war BS and focus on the issues: the horrible job designs, the lackluster undertuned raids, the atrocious story, and broken, poorly thought out systems like DC travel.

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We get it you have a red hat. Please go play the game now and stop posting here.

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Originally Posted by Ellona_Andrivari

We get it you have a red hat. Please go play the game now and stop posting here.

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I sincerely hope this is a troll attempt, I really do, because their take is so milquetoast I could have it for breakfast.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I think your anger is misplaced. Sometimes when criticizing these things today (which, tbh, has been a thing since the release of Shadowbringers) you will always find some dude bringing out that the reason this happened is because Square Enix invested way too much money in the "ethics" department and the conversation will devolve from there.

As for the story, this hatred for the MSQ was up in EW, SB and even ShB at some point. If you don't believe me just look in the forums.

For instance ... EW is bad: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/470440

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EW was nowhere *near* this level of criticism of the msq, there was like, 1 single megathread. Dawntrail has dozens and one that has already approached the EW thread

Probably not gonna happen here without active mod intervention to keep people in line and on track. Especially on topics specifically around Wuk's voice actress.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

I've stopped trusting reviews when Elden Ring's DLC got review bombed as the worst thing Fromsoft ever released.

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People should honestly take reviews with a grain of salt because of this kind of thing. It's also a good idea for people to learn who's tastes align with their own and trust those people. One of my favorite games of the year is Rise of the Ronin. That game got some mediocre reviews, but because I love anything Team Ninja does, I knew going into it I would probably like it anyway. Whenever Team Ninja releases a new game I check to see if this one Japanese streamer has been playing it for 100+ hours. I don't know Japanese, but I love to watch the guy because he lives for putting 500+ hours into TN games. I saw he'd been playing Rise of the Ronin nonstop and that was all I needed to know to know I would enjoy the game.

far right incels are definitely not the people to listen to. If square enix has a good na/eu staff they would easily understand the situation. While those who liked dawntrail are playing/in other platforms, 4chan and those types has made it their course to flood an unmodderated forum. Knowing square enix however they'll be baited into their trap.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

EW was nowhere *near* this level of criticism of the msq, there was like, 1 single megathread. Dawntrail has dozens and one that has already approached the EW thread

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Please, there was thread after thread. Then the Post MSQ was teared to shreds, then you got all the content creators saying that the expansion was horribly boring. People saying that the devs tried to gaslight us into liking Venat, people hating on Zero, lol.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

Please, there was thread after thread.

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No there wasn't.

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Then the Post MSQ was teared to shreds

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irrelevant because no one is talking about DT's post MSq, or you're trying to be unfair on purpose?

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

No there wasn't.

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Yes there was, not to mention the amount of Reddit posts and other stuff you guys keep bringing up as "evidence" for DT to be "generally hated".

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irrelevant because no one is talking about DT's post MSq, or you're trying to be unfair on purpose?

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How is that unfair? You're talking about the writing and story quality, it's all in there in how people just straight up hated the MSQ. Or is the post-MSQ supposed to have it's own review now?

I'll be honest though, because I agree that there are some major flaws this game, but I don't know why you're blaming Dawntrail when this has been going downhill (Job design, repetitive narrative, etc) since Shadowbringers. You're either choosing not to remember the complaining or just straight up ignoring it.

Thank you OP. I am so tired of seeing stupid takes across the the internet boiling everyone who likes or dislikes Dawntrail to whether or not they liked Wuk Lamat and her English VA.

There are posts with thousands of likes on Xitter about how anyone who didn't like Dawntrail is a red flag for that person being a misogynist transphobe bigot. And unfortunately, there have been enough loud haters of that persuasion that I've seen on these forums that I can't even say a take like that is entirely wrong even though it's hyper generalizing, because some people really do seem to funnel all their hate into hating one single character and her VA.

I don't want to be associated with either of these lunatic groups. I thought the writing in DT was awful and I did not enjoy playing it, and it has nothing to do with Wuk Lamat and her VA. I didn't really care for WL, but she's not even my most hated character in the expansion. It was the overall lack of conflict, telling not showing, and kids cartoon style sanitizing that bothered me.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

far right incels are definitely not the people to listen to. If square enix has a good na/eu staff they would easily understand the situation. While those who liked dawntrail are playing/in other platforms, 4chan and those types has made it their course to flood an unmodderated forum. Knowing square enix however they'll be baited into their trap.

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Yeah it's totally just the forum here that dislikes the game. Nevermind the steam forums, the steam review scores, metacritic scores, GameFaqs communities, and even Reddit (before they started damage controlling and banning anyone talking critical about Wuk Lamat or Dawntrail.) It's totally just the official forums dude.

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Originally Posted by Volgia

How is that unfair? You're talking about the writing and story quality, it's all in there in how people just straight up hated the MSQ.

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I'll tell you what fair:


MSQ to MSQ: that is fair.

Post MSQ to post MSQ: that is fair.

MSQ + post MSQ to MSQ + post MSQ: that is fair.

MSQ + post MSQ to only MSQ: on what planet is that fair?


Like ... if you have 2 full course meal. Either you compare the matching items one at a time (i.e entree to entree, desert to desert), or you compare the entire course. You don't compare one dish in one to the entire other course ... why do I even have to explain this?

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Or is the post-MSQ supposed to have it's own review now?

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Why not? Wasn't that what happened last time any way? People loved EW's MSQ and hate the post-MSQ, it's obvious people weren't treating them the same. And if DT's post MSQ manage to redeem, it'll receive a similar reaction.

Also, I'm not even sure what your point is. But I'll tell you this, if your intention is to defend the current writing team, than what you're trying to say is actually a self-owning. The fact that the previous team (Ishikawa and co) were in charge of the good portion of EW (MSQ), and the post story was handed over to the current team. So if anything, in term of personel and overall quality, EW post-MSQ has more in common to DT's MSQ than EW's MSQ. No wonder why they both suck so much.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Yeah it's totally just the forum here that dislikes the game. Nevermind the steam forums, the steam review scores, metacritic scores, GameFaqs communities, and even Reddit (before they started damage controlling and banning anyone talking critical about Wuk Lamat or Dawntrail.) It's totally just the official forums dude.

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no one is categorizing legitimate criticism with these people, you are.

I will mention that certain writing quirks also appear as part of the english translation that famously diverges a lot from the Japanese ones.
More then French and german do usualy. Just something that one should keep in mind.

My issues have nothing to do with anything but VA issues and writing. Nothing to do with the person behind the scenes.

I'm I'm live with J Bailey, but I really don't need to see catboy eat another effing hamburger.

Also, more Estinien workout scenes, please and thank you!!