Attempting to diagnose Dawntrail's difficulty

I will not deny that Dawntrail is challenging. The first dungeon is definitely a bit of a step up from the final Post-EW dungeons, and the trials are very much a new sense of difficulty.

However, I don't think that this is entirely on the devs. There are a lot of factors that make these new mechanics seem more difficult and unfair than they actually are.

First, it's new. By the time I write this, it will have been just over a month since DT hit early access. Many players are still going into the new DT dungeons and trials for the first time, or they haven't spent countless roulettes being forced to learn them. One of the big supports for burning my way through the main campaign over the past few months is that all the other players knew their way through the dungeons and trials, which meant that I could just follow their lead and not have too much trouble. Now, that's no longer an option.

Second, there is no denying that a decent amount of players are either new or returning after some time away, and instead of refreshing themselves in the EW dungeons and trials, they're jumping right into Dawntrail (possibly with a level and story skip) without having learned much of the mechanics that have been previously used. In essence, there's a good amount of people that are a bit rusty and still finding their way back into the flow.

And third, the approach to combat mechanics has taken more of a focus on evasion. Looking over the new boss mechanics in comparison to older ones, there is a definite increase in moments where having to stop attacking in order to evade chaotic mechanics is necessary. Up to EW, it was very rare that a melee DPS would have to fully stop attacking for more than a couple seconds in order to avoid a mechanic. In Dawntrail, there are now many mechanics that force the player into an evasive state, having to weave their way through a bunch of moving parts in order to not totally die. Everyone's favourite hive queen is the most notable case. Everyone's least favourite noggin man is the most severe and unintuitive case. All my homies hate Leonogg.

Beyond that particularly nasty fight, many of these mechanics are new to even veteran players, as they now have to take a new approach to dealing with fights as they can't just sit in melee range and run their rotation until some AOEs force them to back off. Now, players have to take their time and be a bit more methodical, whereas previously it was possible (and often encouraged) to just go bonkers until the boss died.

Anyway. At the end of the day, DT is definitely a new challenge, and that's not unintentional. And there's nothing wrong with struggling either! It's still new, and many players are still getting used to the new dungeons and mechanics. There's nothing wrong with taking vuln stacks, or needing to get raised a couple times because you got overwhelmed by a mechanic. And if someone does make you feel bad for that, then screw them!

Dawntrail is harder than EW, that's just a fact.

BUT, it's still doable easily. People need to lift their eyes over the hotkey bar and look at the area, the boss and what he cast.

Of course, failing is ok. It's a matter of fail and retry. But let's be honest. None of the mecanics of Dawntrail inside dungeon are at the level of an extreme or Savage.

People complain about multiple mecanic at once ? We had that since Stormblood, nothing new.

People complain about non-telegraph AoE ? Maybe start looking at what the boss cast or how he move, that could give you a hint.

The boss hit too hard ? You have tools to reduce damage for you or the entire party, read your spell.

I do agree that player who returns after a long time can be rusty, and every player doesn't share the same skill/knowledge. Also, I think that using a skip to reach lvl 90 immediatly is a REALLY BAD IDEA when you know nothing of a MMO.

Also, you can't expect to have the same difficulty inside a dungeon from level 15 to 100. The difficulty HAS to increase at some point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TabrisOmbrelame

Dawntrail is harder than EW, that's just a fact.

---

That's debatable. Once I got used to it, it started feeling like ffxiv has always felt. Usually, we don't say about facts that they are debatable. It's not harder, it is however more dynamic and engaging.
There's nothing to "diagnose" about dawntrail's difficulty, it's fine. It's still easier than the game has been for the majority of its lifespan.
Also I don't think this will turn back, because Dawntrail's difficulty is a slight "turning back" moment. Would really send a poor message if they turned back again.
People just need to get used to it, understand that we are all playing with lower ilvl difference to content than we used to in Endwalker, because we don't have 2000 options to gear, and stop letting people who say Dawntrail is hard influence them.
Like, there's evolution and changes every expansion, and there's people complaining about that sort of stuff every new expansion, cause it's jarring to be clearing content with ease because you are overgeared and then suddenly getting into content where you're not anymore.
This discussion is getting so tired, I'm not sure why we need yet another post. ;o;

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdtuggey

There's nothing to "diagnose" about dawntrail's difficulty

---

I can understand this perspective, but the reason I made this post was to bridge the gap between two parts of the community that, from what I've observed, have been very divided. There are many posts telling players who are offput by the difficulty to "get good, loser", and many other posts from these offput players feeling alienated from the game they enjoy. Not all of these posts are on the forums specifically, but I've seen a lot of people angry at each other or the devs about the challenge, which is why I wanted to attempt to explain why it is that the game has seemingly spiked in difficulty for some players.

Because yes, it is difficult. But it's not mindlessly difficult. Making players feel bad for struggling gets us nowhere and comes off as elitist, while making players feel bad for wanting the challenge similarly isolates parts of the community. The game has not lost the welcoming and accessible aspects to it — aspects for which it should be praised — but rather it is now expanding upon a dense combat system that has previously been rather shallow in casual content (in the eyes of some).

Basically, I wanted to try to explain (from my perspective) where this difficulty comes from in the hopes of making players that are struggling feel like they understand the challenge a bit better, rather than feeling like they're blindly flailing about until they get 7 vuln stacks and die for the third time.

after it being out for 2 weeks like we said now people have a little more gear and it makes normal SO EASY NOW. The only people saying it was hard were people wanting to go in go through it all without one wipe while seeing what mechanics there were. These people have no idea what to complain about it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jdtuggey

That's debatable. Once I got used to it, it started feeling like ffxiv has always felt. Usually, we don't say about facts that they are debatable. It's not harder, it is however more dynamic and engaging.
There's nothing to "diagnose" about dawntrail's difficulty, it's fine. It's still easier than the game has been for the majority of its lifespan.
Also I don't think this will turn back, because Dawntrail's difficulty is a slight "turning back" moment. Would really send a poor message if they turned back again.
People just need to get used to it, understand that we are all playing with lower ilvl difference to content than we used to in Endwalker, because we don't have 2000 options to gear, and stop letting people who say Dawntrail is hard influence them.
Like, there's evolution and changes every expansion, and there's people complaining about that sort of stuff every new expansion, cause it's jarring to be clearing content with ease because you are overgeared and then suddenly getting into content where you're not anymore.
This discussion is getting so tired, I'm not sure why we need yet another post. ;o;

---

Exactly , Savage even feels just as easy. It really is not that bad. I think these people were shocked by a few deaths until they got used to it. once you learn things most people are fine. I have seen the whole its too hard die down alot as people got gear and seen everything.

I think Endwalker made things too easy, so people starting the game then were left unprepared about how the game should be. The addition of Trusts meant many old MSQ dungeon bosses were made easier and it limited what was allowed. Bosses also had massive hitboxes and these long tutorial phases that lasted almost the entire fight once you outgeared it. (rant: I get it, the boss has a stack mechanic...you don't have to show it separately first before combining it with an additional mechanic. I know there are people at level 90 that still seem to run away when they get stack markers but you don't need to keep showing what a stack marker does when they should already know from the dozens of previous fights that had one.)

Some people seem to completely hate the idea of dying or even wiping when seeing a new boss for the first time. It's okay to die or wipe when you don't know the mechanics, just use it as a learning experience so that the mechanic doesn't get you the next time. This game isn't punishing when you die since you don't lose anything other than a bit of durability on your gear. Endwalker Alliance Raids are pathetically easy with how fast the bosses die now, where as I still see the occasional wipe in the Ivalice and Nier raids.

Also, I think Trusts are more toxic than players. Many fights in the past designed simple or dumbed down with the idea of Trusts in mind, however the Trusts in DT dungeons seemed to be designed to take reduced damage and not receive debuffs if they fail a mechanic, allowing bosses to be more complex and not a snoozefest like they once were. The worst part of Trusts however is that the fight just ends if you die, making it far more difficult to see what got you and reducing your chances of clearing if you're skill isn't a bit below the bar. At least if you die when running with other players you can still see what's going on after dying and you'll simply get revived and allowed to continue the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by protocarbuncle

there is a definite increase in moments where having to stop attacking in order to evade chaotic mechanics is necessary. Up to EW, it was very rare that a melee DPS would have to fully stop attacking for more than a couple seconds in order to avoid a mechanic. In Dawntrail, there are now many mechanics that force the player into an evasive state, having to weave their way through a bunch of moving parts in order to not totally die.

---

And that's one of the reasons why the ranged attacks and utility skills of melee jobs don't break the 1-2-3 combos anymore.

At first I died alot, because I did not pay attention to the area, to the body of the boss. Now I dont die (unless I chase after a dps) as often. Players need to adjust, die, learn, die, learn and win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by protocarbuncle

I can understand this perspective, but the reason I made this post was to bridge the gap between two parts of the community that, from what I've observed, have been very divided. There are many posts telling players who are offput by the difficulty to "get good, loser", and many other posts from these offput players feeling alienated from the game they enjoy. Not all of these posts are on the forums specifically, but I've seen a lot of people angry at each other or the devs about the challenge, which is why I wanted to attempt to explain why it is that the game has seemingly spiked in difficulty for some players.

Because yes, it is difficult. But it's not mindlessly difficult. Making players feel bad for struggling gets us nowhere and comes off as elitist, while making players feel bad for wanting the challenge similarly isolates parts of the community. The game has not lost the welcoming and accessible aspects to it — aspects for which it should be praised — but rather it is now expanding upon a dense combat system that has previously been rather shallow in casual content (in the eyes of some).

Basically, I wanted to try to explain (from my perspective) where this difficulty comes from in the hopes of making players that are struggling feel like they understand the challenge a bit better, rather than feeling like they're blindly flailing about until they get 7 vuln stacks and die for the third time.

---

The insulting comments are by and large the minority of comments. The overwhelming majority of comments are "The difficulty is fine, you need to improve. Here's a good way to go about that." There's a stark difference in the two responses. One is judgmental and insulting, the other is firm but supportive. A key note here is that it's possible to be supportive of the player without being supportive of their stance on this matter. Those of us who like the paradigm shift (and that's really all that's happened with DT) do not support the stance of wanting the game made easier, but most of us are quite supportive of the individual players. That's why we've offered advice on how to improve. The big issue that has caused division, however, is the response to said advice. Overwhelmingly, the majority of those complaining about the difficulty have taken the most benevolent advice responses and returned vitriol. It's become exceedingly evident that they have no desire to improve their gameplay whatsoever, and they just want the whole game to cater to their desires at the cost of the rest of the community. From a game design perspective, having a static difficulty level that never increases over the life of the game is detrimental overall to the game as a whole. An accessible game starts off easy and increases in difficulty at a slow pace over time. FFXIV does this quite well, with the exception of Endwalker. We've attempted to meet the other side in the middle by offering help on improving.

The only real "difficulty" introduced by DT is having people pay attention because of a combination of:

-overlapping mechanics that started being more common in EW (last boss of Tower of Zot, Dead Ends, Smileton..)
-non-standard telegraphs that became more common since Nier raids

So I don't think it was that much of a steep increase, but the real cause of the division is that it exposes players that cannot or don't want to pay attention for various reasons and frustrates those players, some of them have disabilities, some other are too comfortable with normal content being glorified AoE rotation/single target rotation dummies where they could turn their brain off and clear no matter, thus feeling entitled to clearing stuff on first try

If OP's goal is to bridge the gap in that division it will unfortunately take more effort from the complainers, because people that don't feel like this content is difficult can simply troll them while others try to give them meaningful advice, especially if they feel entitled to clearing the content easily and therefore less receptive to advice

It's really only moderately more challenging (and will become less challenging with time and gear level), but games are supposed to get harder as you get further into them. I don't think anyone really finds that controversial.