The tragic state of Machinist

I literally registered for a forums account so that I could hopefully post feedback somewhere where devs might see it (if you know of elsewhere, feel free to let me know!) but I'm here to complain about the current state of Machinist;

Machinist has been done dirty this expansion, arguably the lowest damage out of ALL DPS jobs and they're supposed to be the "selfish" of the physical range DPS jobs. They really need to boost Machinist's damage by a decent bit, especially since Machinist has NO movement! Dawntrail has brought us content more challenging than before (which is great), but the more demanding the content is the more painful the reality is for Machinist to not have any sort of in-combat movement action besides sprint.

Before Endwalker, this could be arguably balanced since Machinist could hold its own with DPS but now it's just sad to not have any movement buttons and therefore be clutching your pearls, praying sprint is not still on cooldown, WHILE also not keeping up with every other DPS in damage. Feelsbadman. :( Machinist does not even have the party buffs/utility that Dancer and Bard both bring to the table, dancer also has charges of movement ability...

It's in a rough spot I'm really hoping Machinist can be balanced this upcoming patch.

I thought people really like the changes to Machinist? I mean, it's not like they're the only job suffering from damage issues. Look at Black Mage.

It’s wild to me that they’ve spent since Shadowbringers trying to force square Machinist into the circle hole for melee. Like it doesn’t matter how many bits you cut off it’s never going to fit properly.

Yet they insist on making it ‘pure selfish dps’ as if it’s somehow ever going to compete with the likes of Samurai, Black Mage (if properly balanced) or probably even Pictomancer. So it can’t compete in its own sub role because literally 0 support (Dismantle barely counts lol), can’t compete in other sub roles because of the ranged dps tax.

They desperately need to commit to either giving Machinists dps commensurate to the ‘pure selfish dps’ title, or give it support to compete with Bard and Dancer within its own role. Because otherwise it just kind of fails at everything lol, similar to Bard

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

I thought people really like the changes to Machinist? I mean, it's not like they're the only job suffering from damage issues. Look at Black Mage.

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People do, but as you say, OP is mainly concerned with MCH's subpar damage. Go look at logs from the current extremes and you'll see MCH at the bottom or close to the bottom.
The nail in the coffin imo is that MCH was lacking in damage in EW, and instead of buffing it, it's still the same low damage, of course a balance patch will be coming soon but only time will tell if it actually helps MCH out, the DT patch didn't.

I'm not sure MCH needs a mobility skill though, it is Phys ranged and can move freely, but I definitely agree it's damage needs to be looked at.

Hard not to like the changes to MCH.. since it... really didn't change at all. It got.. another 600 potency skill that grants 20 battery, that has 65% fall off damage.. basically chainsaw.. with a different aoe shape.. could have given us a second stack of chainsaw for.. the exact same skill.. they took gauss round and ricochet and made it the exact same skill with different animations which breaks the aoe rotation, because again.. you ACB doesn't reset the cd's on GR or Ricochet, so it's actually a dps gain to single target, for the ogcd resets... battery is still only used by robot and even easier to have a full charge every minute..

and your big giant flashy, new two min cd.. is only 100 potency more than 4 of your other skills you use 5 times (counting stacks) and can't actually gain any buff from reassemble on.. and.. that's it. It is still the exact same as it was in ShB, in EW with the same exact problems it's had since Stormblood... and to top it all off it's bottom tier damage. It's legitimately a laughing stock job at this point.. They have no clue what to do with it or how to make it interesting or viable to play.

Pretty sure the dev in charge of machinist was told "make the new skills worse versions of what samurai already has". That was the general gist of what I got from it.

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Originally Posted by Bloonz

Before Endwalker, this could be arguably balanced since Machinist could hold its own with DPS but now it's just sad to not have any movement buttons and therefore be clutching your pearls, praying sprint is not still on cooldown, WHILE also not keeping up with every other DPS in damage. Feelsbadman. :( Machinist does not even have the party buffs/utility that Dancer and Bard both bring to the table, dancer also has charges of movement ability...

It's in a rough spot I'm really hoping Machinist can be balanced this upcoming patch.

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Machinist was not great in Endwalker. It was pretty low on the totem pole and people still tried to pull the "mobility means ranged tax!" card when uptime was never an issue for any other job. Bard and dancer outpaced it, and those tend to scale better with gear than machinist does. The absolutely low potencies on its actions don't translate to damage, who would've thunk it? And by the way, the hardest hitting skill machinist has is still crowned collider. Something that the machinist personally doesn't do. Sure you can argue full metal field is consistently higher due to it always direct critting, but 700 potency vs 780 crowned collider on a queen? Heh.

MCH will never be the "selfish" dps of ranged bc if it had the same damage as BLM or SAM then people would play them over DNC or BRD. Sure the party buffs are great but if MCH's personal damage was high enough, then it outweighs the rDPS of the other two.

Plus the devs values the ranged tax too much for MCH to be anywhere close to the top.

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH will never be the "selfish" dps of ranged bc if it had the same damage as BLM or SAM then people would play them over DNC or BRD. Sure the party buffs are great but if MCH's personal damage was high enough, then it outweighs the rDPS of the other two.

Plus the devs values the ranged tax too much for MCH to be anywhere close to the top.

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This, very true. But the whole "state of machinist is sad" should be substituted with "state of ranged phys is sad". It really isn't just a machinist problem, it's a problem all phys ranged share now.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

This, very true. But the whole "state of machinist is sad" should be substituted with "state of ranged phys is sad". It really isn't just a machinist problem, it's a problem all phys ranged share now.

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bard is in a very depressing state

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Originally Posted by Bloonz

I literally registered for a forums account so that I could hopefully post feedback somewhere where devs might see it (if you know of elsewhere, feel free to let me know!) but I'm here to complain about the current state of Machinist;

Machinist has been done dirty this expansion, arguably the lowest damage out of ALL DPS jobs and they're supposed to be the "selfish" of the physical range DPS jobs. They really need to boost Machinist's damage by a decent bit, especially since Machinist has NO movement! Dawntrail has brought us content more challenging than before (which is great), but the more demanding the content is the more painful the reality is for Machinist to not have any sort of in-combat movement action besides sprint.

Before Endwalker, this could be arguably balanced since Machinist could hold its own with DPS but now it's just sad to not have any movement buttons and therefore be clutching your pearls, praying sprint is not still on cooldown, WHILE also not keeping up with every other DPS in damage. Feelsbadman. :( Machinist does not even have the party buffs/utility that Dancer and Bard both bring to the table, dancer also has charges of movement ability...

It's in a rough spot I'm really hoping Machinist can be balanced this upcoming patch.

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Of all the points one could criticize on MCH, I can't say I expected somebody to actually complain on... mobility.

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Originally Posted by Connor

It’s wild to me that they’ve spent since Shadowbringers trying to force square Machinist into the circle hole for melee. Like it doesn’t matter how many bits you cut off it’s never going to fit properly.

Yet they insist on making it ‘pure selfish dps’ as if it’s somehow ever going to compete with the likes of Samurai, Black Mage (if properly balanced) or probably even Pictomancer. So it can’t compete in its own sub role because literally 0 support (Dismantle barely counts lol), can’t compete in other sub roles because of the ranged dps tax.

They desperately need to commit to either giving Machinists dps commensurate to the ‘pure selfish dps’ title, or give it support to compete with Bard and Dancer within its own role. Because otherwise it just kind of fails at everything lol, similar to Bard

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MCH has always been at the bottom since shb relatively consistently, but it's not always been dead last with a gap either. BRD and DNC have always been good companions to it and frankly, the difference in total raid output contribution overall has always been relatively similar, with some swings here and there (I'll agree that MCH has had true low points in EW especially even compared to DNC/BRD). Currently for example, MCH is slightly above DNC even at higher percentiles, so saying it cannot compete within the rphys role sounds a little... over dramatic.

If we want to complain about MCH's damage, it's not a problem of the job, it's a problem of the whole rphys role, which SMN and RDM also share (but they can raise at least).

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Originally Posted by elioaiko

MCH will never be the "selfish" dps of ranged bc if it had the same damage as BLM or SAM then people would play them over DNC or BRD. Sure the party buffs are great but if MCH's personal damage was high enough, then it outweighs the rDPS of the other two.

Plus the devs values the ranged tax too much for MCH to be anywhere close to the top.

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If the utility of the other two were better they'd be picked for it as well. The same way you still see monks and ninjas instead of just samurais. If anything the entire Phys range role needs reinventing and the jobs in it need to become good at their niches. But for certain Machinist should be the DPS Phys range.
This is just the fear the Devs have of ARR bard, they made it so broken that they're literally terrified of giving Phys range decent damage again. They really need to get over it and fix the Phys range role. TP has been gone for 5 years now and the Phys range still feel like they're balanced around being the guys who give tp.

I don't know where MCH places on the damage tier list but gameplay wise it's more fun than it's ever been. MCH was always my "turn brain off" job but now it's busy enough to actually be pretty fun and engaging. 10/10

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Originally Posted by Valence

Of all the points one could criticize on MCH, I can't say I expected somebody to actually complain on... mobility.

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MCH is the only physranged without any form of mobility tool.
It is one of two DPS jobs without a mobility tool. SMN's Crimson Cyclone doesn't count.
Scholar and Astrologian also don't have a mobility tool.

DNC gets 3 charges of En Avant.

It's okay for MCH to not have mobility tools in my opinion.
It's better to have diverse jobs with strentgh and weaknesses.

I get mobility tools are fun but they aren't required, not everyone needs mobility.

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Originally Posted by LibitIncarne

MCH is the only physranged without any form of mobility tool.
It is one of two DPS jobs without a mobility tool. SMN's Crimson Cyclone doesn't count.
Scholar and Astrologian also don't have a mobility tool.

DNC gets 3 charges of En Avant.

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And... you need a mobility tool when playing rphys?

Also, don't you dare associating BRD's pitiful backstep with a mobility tool; you'd do the exact same result by just running back. This is a gimmick at best. I like using it just to justify its presence on my hotbar and look fancy when bored though.

The real reason they hand mobility tools to certain jobs is essentially based on them having melee radius or skills. WhM for example, got one for that specific justification on AoE (probably didn't need it tbh but here you go), and SGE as well. DNC when introduced also got one unlike its 2 rphys cousins because it had a lot of melee action to justify as well. When it comes to casters, it's usually justified by cast times conflicting with mobility, which goes back to uptime constraints.

MCH and BRD and i'd say SMN as well, have no such constraints.

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Originally Posted by Bloonz

I literally registered for a forums account so that I could hopefully post feedback somewhere where devs might see it (if you know of elsewhere, feel free to let me know!) but I'm here to complain about the current state of Machinist;

Machinist has been done dirty this expansion, arguably the lowest damage out of ALL DPS jobs and they're supposed to be the "selfish" of the physical range DPS jobs. They really need to boost Machinist's damage by a decent bit, especially since Machinist has NO movement! Dawntrail has brought us content more challenging than before (which is great), but the more demanding the content is the more painful the reality is for Machinist to not have any sort of in-combat movement action besides sprint.

Before Endwalker, this could be arguably balanced since Machinist could hold its own with DPS but now it's just sad to not have any movement buttons and therefore be clutching your pearls, praying sprint is not still on cooldown, WHILE also not keeping up with every other DPS in damage. Feelsbadman. :( Machinist does not even have the party buffs/utility that Dancer and Bard both bring to the table, dancer also has charges of movement ability...

It's in a rough spot I'm really hoping Machinist can be balanced this upcoming patch.

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What does DPS have to do with movement? Also unless your doing the P word, you will never really know if your DPS is bad or good so idk how you manage to see your dps is low and also it somehow effects the tangible kit. 1k potency or 200k potency, job plays the same unless the enrage (which atm only 3 EX trials have and 0 dungeons) is creeping up.

Furthermore both BRD and DNC need to be close to party member which is why they have their movement abilities, MCH is a easier job than both of them ontop of being ranged so theirs no need to zip away to and fro unless your desperate for a crutch. Your overreacting that its in a tragic state cuz it doesnt have a En avant charge DPS be dammed. Couldve mentioned the fact it got zero new skills added to its kit, all being shallow finishers or upgrades, or the fact their AOE still sucks and is also has alot of bloat for the 2nd shallowest job in the game. But whatever

Looks like we live to suck for another patch.

Absolutely no potency increases for us. I'd be at a loss for words if this behavior was new. At this point, you're only playing Machinist because you really like the aesthetics.

MCH is not faring worse than other ranged taxed jobs. If anything it's the whole role that should be buffed asap, but they never learn. ShB and EW had the exact same problem at the release of their first tier and got buffed for x.1.

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Originally Posted by SJWhat

Absolutely no potency increases for us. I'd be at a loss for words if this behavior was new. At this point, you're only playing Machinist because you really like the aesthetics.

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uhmmmm just wait until 7.05 :^)
Oh they still didnt get fixed uhhhh wait until 7.1 :^|
Oh still not... just wait until 8.0!!! they'll fix all the jobs by 8.0!!!! Just wait 2 years!!!! :^/

I'll personally start crying when 7.05.
Atm DPS doesn't matter. Ex trial dps check are so low, DPS could do 20% less damage and we'd still beat the enrage with 5-10 death.

I am kinda disappointed not to see any mention of MCH in the 7.01 patch notes. And I doubt there will be any in 7.05 either.

At the moment the DPS problem of the machinist is at "high" level only. It is a good performin job when played badly (compared to other jobs) and recover better than other from death. But if you play it well and don't die, it doesn't reward you with a higher dps potential unlike ALL other jobs.
If I do a quick comparison with MNK on fflogs, 1 percentile parses rdps are similar, 50% parse rdps as well but 75% parse rdps MNK is higher than MCH and max parse rdps is 10% above!

Also, are we the ONLY job without a movement skill?

At this point they could delete phys ranges and it wouldnt even matter. Melees are the new ranges, now with the huge hit boxes and mages can throw buffs, shields and heals frequently, while hitting big numbers. Yoshidaaaa do something please!

I think Machinist has been on a backslide since 5.0, which is really unfortunate.

When Heavensward was teased, I mained BLM - and I was taken with Machinist as a class, aesthetically, so much so that I leveled it from 30 to 50 on Heavensward's launch day so I could start the MSQ as my new main and ever since then it has been my primary role. I truly think the removal of gauss barrel and ammunition robbed the class of its identity and laid the foundation for where it is today.

If they had let Bard remain as the instant DPS but left the casting bar toggling and ammunition in it would have been a foundation to justify giving Machinist a DPS boost similar to Summoner or Red Mage who benefit from being casters, though they are taxed for their raising abilities. But they didn't. and it has been painful and disappointing watching my favorite class slip down. I really think Machinist is Square Enix's red-headed stepchild.

Flamethrower is a key example of this. Why does this ability exist? It has remain unchanged since they pulled the heat generation off of it and it has dipped into irrelevance. What was once a capstone spell is now borderline useless. Full Metal Machinist is a visually interesting spell but it's nothing very different; the class has changed very little and it is consistently being outperformed by even Bard at the higher percentiles.

I have seen Extreme trial PFs eschew Machinist from the ranged DPS slot, leaving only Bard or Dancer as options. I remember this happening before, as well, I think during Shadowbringers. Either Machinist needs to be a selfish DPS and be given a bump to compensate for that or they need to reinforce its utility and bring back Rend Mind, Promotion's mechanics in some other capacity similar to Bard's songs, hell, give me Heartbreak or Lead Shot again.

Reload and Quick Reload's animations were great. Grenado shot as an AoE combo, something. So much of the class' identity in Heavensward was thrown away.

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Originally Posted by SueTheCake

I think Machinist has been on a backslide since 5.0, which is really unfortunate.

When Heavensward was teased, I mained BLM - and I was taken with Machinist as a class, aesthetically, so much so that I leveled it from 30 to 50 on Heavensward's launch day so I could start the MSQ as my new main and ever since then it has been my primary role. I truly think the removal of gauss barrel and ammunition robbed the class of its identity and laid the foundation for where it is today.

If they had let Bard remain as the instant DPS but left the casting bar toggling and ammunition in it would have been a foundation to justify giving Machinist a DPS boost similar to Summoner or Red Mage who benefit from being casters, though they are taxed for their raising abilities. But they didn't. and it has been painful and disappointing watching my favorite class slip down. I really think Machinist is Square Enix's red-headed stepchild.

Flamethrower is a key example of this. Why does this ability exist? It has remain unchanged since they pulled the heat generation off of it and it has dipped into irrelevance. What was once a capstone spell is now borderline useless. Full Metal Machinist is a visually interesting spell but it's nothing very different; the class has changed very little and it is consistently being outperformed by even Bard at the higher percentiles.

I have seen Extreme trial PFs eschew Machinist from the ranged DPS slot, leaving only Bard or Dancer as options. I remember this happening before, as well, I think during Shadowbringers. Either Machinist needs to be a selfish DPS and be given a bump to compensate for that or they need to reinforce its utility and bring back Rend Mind, Promotion's mechanics in some other capacity similar to Bard's songs, hell, give me Heartbreak or Lead Shot again.

Reload and Quick Reload's animations were great. Grenado shot as an AoE combo, something. So much of the class' identity in Heavensward was thrown away.

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You're thinking of Stormblood when we were so bloody ping gated that raids and ex pf's would exclude us because 80% of the community couldn't perform the optimal rotation and because we had to wait for the perfect tick on flamethrower we would either make or break our rotation entirely and in turn make or break our damage... other than that.. I agree with everything you said.