Viper is not hard, and does not need simplification.

Viper is not hard. It's painfully simple, in fact. I firmly believe the ONLY reason anyone is having trouble is because of the horrendous tooltips, complex combo system and their unbridled unwillingness to even try and learn it.

I'd like to preface this by saying I have Viper at level 100, and I used it in the recent extremes. That being said, I love Viper, it instantly became my main over Ninja, and hitting a dummy for even 5 minutes would give you a good understanding of how Viper functions. Unfortunately, some people cant manage that, and for some reason resort to depending exclusively on tooltips, which in Viper's case are terrible, or running to the forums to cry about how complicated Viper is.

Firstly, I feel like the lack if variety in the names of each skill are the first culprit. The words "Steel", "Fangs", "Hunter's", "Dread", "Maw", "Twin" and a few others are all used several times among all of Viper's weaponskills, sometimes upwards of 4 times. Of course if someone is looking at these weaponskills with nearly identical and often interchanged names will have trouble remembering which skill is used for which instance. This isn't even mentioning the fact that literally over half of Viper's weaponskills are UNASSIGNABLE, so unlike other classes, you wouldn't be able to hover over the skill to double check what it's purpose is, and even if you could, being shown "Can only be executed after Dreadwinder", you'd have to go back and look through all 4 abilities that have Dread in the name.

Secondly, the descriptions, the most important part, are vague as hell. Twinfang and Twinblood have "Changes to x, y and z when requirements for execution are met". Genuinely what the hell is that supposed to mean? What are the requirements? They seem to have zero issue dropping a ton of Viper buzzwords in the Coil and Den weapon skill tooltips yet cant manage telling us that Twinfang and Twinblood react to Dreadwinder, Pit Of Dread and Uncoiled Fury? This isnt even an isolated issue. Almost every unassignable weaponskill has the phrase "when requirements for execution are met." This is the cause of people complaining. A mistake on your part, SE, not how Viper plays.

Everything can easily be figured out with minimal practice. The positionals are quite literally a skill issue, not a big one either. Even with Viper's haste buff there is enough time to execute every necessary oGCD.

A better change for Viper would be making it harder. Simple things such as removing the highlights around most GCDs, removing the Noxious Gnash proc from Dreadwinder but making the GCD proc last longer. Give it a damn mit ability like Shade Shift, even a minor one. Games are allowed to have hard jobs, and high skill ceilings. For the love of the Great Serpent of Ronka don't make Viper easier than it already it.

they're changing it because it was too busy, not because it was hard

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Originally Posted by TheMaxwewll

Give it a damn mit ability like Shade Shift, even a minor one. Games are allowed to have hard jobs, and high skill ceilings. For the love of the Great Serpent of Ronka don't make Viper easier than it already it.

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I actually feel like I am missing an ability from Viper because it has no defensive skill. It's probably because I'm so used to Reaper's Arcane Crest. It's hardly necessary, but I just like having that little bit of extra functionality to break up the DPS tunnel vision. It might be interesting to have a short defensive like Samurai/Reaper that refreshes Noxious Gnash when you get hit.

As for the overall complexity, I do feel like the tooltips and naming are cumbersome while also being too vague. I usually go through and set up my hotbars to max level based on tooltips and then make adjustments for playstyle as level up. Viper took me some time to get it right. While the "just follow the dotted lines" approach is an interesting implementation, I still like to actually know what I'm doing when I press my buttons lol.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

they're changing it because it was too busy, not because it was hard

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Isn't busyness the whole point of the job? What identity does it have if not high apm? I've only seen praise for the apm amongst my friends so I'm baffled that they think this is an issue worth addressing.

As a ninja main I love how busy viper isn't, you have more than enough time to press button, move, press other button.
It could use a self mitigation button like all the other melee, something like arcane crest or tengetsu would be nice

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Originally Posted by Gilihere

As a ninja main I love how busy viper isn't, you have more than enough time to press button, move, press other button.
It could use a self mitigation button like all the other melee, something like arcane crest or tengetsu would be nice

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Bloodbath is super effective on viper compared to ninja because all the damage is physical. Do it during reawaken or while AoEing mobs and watch you hp go up up up

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

they're changing it because it was too busy, not because it was hard

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That's the point of the job.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

Bloodbath is super effective on viper compared to ninja because all the damage is physical. Do it during reawaken or while AoEing mobs and watch you hp go up up up

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yeah I can see that happening, but in raid setting it might not work as well. Anyway might as well try it :D

There's nothing too busy about it. It's one of the most simple melee DPS classes to play at the moment.

I admit that initially it took me a moment to figure out my hotbar, but that comes with every new job. But once I figured out the pretty much perfect set up, my 2 hotbars have an open space left.

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Originally Posted by Melethron123

they're changing it because it was too busy, not because it was hard

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It has the same APM as NIN, and NIN has more complex burst. Where's my NIN simplification?

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Originally Posted by Router

It has the same APM as NIN, and NIN has more complex burst. Where's my NIN simplification?

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While I'm very happy with Viper being further simplified, the truth is that they're letting interns do the job design now

It is fun to play, it is fun to finally being busy and having to press a lot of buttons since every single other job has been oversimplified to the point of boredom. If some people think it's too busy, fine! play something else, they've literally made every single other job easy to play. Let us have fun with at least one job.

Viper is easier to play than Ninja

I think I know why the feedback on viper has been so polarized. It comes down to how comfortable a player is accepting UI assistance when playing a job.

You see this from the first moment you unlock it, the pop-up explanation doesn't attempt to explain the big picture logic of how the job works (mainly that you'll be alternating between options a lot to play into the dual blade theme). It simply tells you to follow the cues from your job gauge and hit the button that lights up.

When I first unlocked the job, I thought I was having a stroke. I'd be testing the same button sequence and different combo options would light up each time. Was it dynamically choosing based on buff timers? Was it just plain random like old dragoon? Remember the game doesn't explain anything. You have to examine the tooltips, which keep taking turns to disappear from your hotbars because they transform, to figure out there are 4 different kinds of similarly named venom buffs that the job wants you to cycle between.

Flanksting Strike Flanksbane Fang Hindsting Strike Hindsbane Fang, try saying that 10 times really fast lmao. I imagine if you had dyslexia you'd just shut down your pc at this point and call it a day.

But back to the UI, ultimately the job is designed on the assumption that you'll be relying on cues from there. If you just do what the game says and follow the lights, you'll certainly be able to play the job almost perfectly even without knowing anything. From that standpoint, the job is certainly 'easy'.

I don't consider that competence though, that's barely treading water to me. It means you'll be playing slowly and reactively, one gcd at a time, with very little situational awareness let alone when difficult mechanics are happening. Some people see no issue playing the game that way even if it means relying on other people solving mechanics, but to me that's unacceptable.

The moment you try and graduate from needing the UI as a crutch, the job actually takes a disproportionate amount of work to become comfortable with. I can see how other people would view the job as overly complex in that regard.

If you don’t like the changes when they come out.. Then don’t play it. Isn’t that the same argument people have that if it’s “too busy” or difficult to reach the ceiling of skill then those who can’t shouldn’t play it? Is it too hard to request a happy medium?

People like to complain just to complain. It’s annoying.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

If you don’t like the changes when they come out.. Then don’t play it.

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Yeah, I won't. And I also won't go back to my old job. I don't take well to being given something that I enjoy and then getting it taken away. I don't think it's exactly a rare sentiment.

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Isn’t that the same argument people have that if it’s “too busy” or difficult to reach the ceiling of skill then those who can’t shouldn’t play it? Is it too hard to request a happy medium?

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There is no happy medium. Any simplification of the job will turn it from ok to boring. Also you are implying that both sides of the debate have equal merit. They do not, because by all indications an overwhelming majority of players are against the changes.

There is a happy medium. People just are so inside themselves and so extreme one way or the other that it causes a rift. I like the job because I think it’s a nice aesthetic. If they change it somewhat, and we don’t know what changes they will make, I’ll still play it. It’s only a “large majority” because we see people complaining on the forums when we know most people aren’t even on the forums.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

It’s only a “large majority” because we see people complaining on the forums when we know most people aren’t even on the forums.

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And yet they decided those changes seemingly on the basis of a handful of complaints (which were too early after release to be well informed in any way), so evidently we need to make our voices heard. I don't care if it creates a rift in the community, or if it makes you unhappy, because quite frankly the purpose here is not to have a debate, it is to show the devs that their decision is hasty, misguided and based on insufficient data.

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Originally Posted by hunter2

Isn't busyness the whole point of the job? What identity does it have if not high apm? I've only seen praise for the apm amongst my friends so I'm baffled that they think this is an issue worth addressing.

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apparently not
it has the identity of dual-wielding swords and wearing leather (and we all know that glam is the real endgame)

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Originally Posted by Router

It has the same APM as NIN, and NIN has more complex burst. Where's my NIN simplification?

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ask yoshi p

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Originally Posted by Yuella

Viper is easier to play than Ninja

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Viper is basically Reaper.
It's almost identical and is just as easy however it flows better and is more fun. The simplification is for people who think the dot on reaper is bad design and complicated.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

But back to the UI, ultimately the job is designed on the assumption that you'll be relying on cues from there.

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The UI is designed with that assumption, but not the job itself.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

The moment you try and graduate from needing the UI as a crutch, the job actually takes a disproportionate amount of work to become comfortable with. I can see how other people would view the job as overly complex in that regard.

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Vipersight is useless outside of tracking Uncoiled Fury charges. If you need the level of assistance from the UI that the job gauge seems to believe players need, I would strongly suggest working on your mmorpg fundamentals. Develop an understanding of how weaponskill combos work, how to pay attention buff and debuff timers, etc etc. Viper requires a disproportionately low amount of work to become comfortable with. It's very simple, but it requires at least a functional understanding of the basic aspects of how FFXIV (and the style of mmo it's based on, eg wow/swtor/rift/etc) plays.

As I see it, the issues with viper are exacerbated by how its basic combo finisher further splits into four, of which you'll be presented with two options at any one time. While you may know which positional is needed, you also need to know specifically whether it's e.g flank1, or flank2, that you'll be constantly cycling between.

Unless you keep a mental note of what your last finisher was 3 gcds ago, you'll need to rely on the UI to tell you which one it's gonna be - be it the gauge or your hotbars. Neither of these are very appealing options to me, and both impose a burden on your mental stack that other jobs in the game are not subject to.

So I can't agree that it takes less work to pilot than other jobs. I think some people have internalized playing the game at a certain reduced level of capacity for awareness. People who play the game with their eyes glued to their hotbar will understandably find viper straightforward to play - it is, if you're willing to make that concession.

Like I said, I don't consider that normal though, that's dangerously distracted driving. It's good that you bring up fundamentals because I care about them greatly too. I just think I have higher standards which is probably why I notice where viper's design chafes.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

People who play the game with their eyes glued to their hotbar will understandably find viper straightforward to play - it is, if you're willing to make that concession.

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Out of every job in this game, viper is one of the ones that requires me to look at my hotbar the least, and I don't even use the vipersight gauge outside of tracking Uncoiled Fury charges. The mental load of doing little more than alternating between the positionals is really not that high, and even then - you get a buff icon that tells you which positional you will be doing three gcds before you even get to it. This issue really is with an understanding of game fundamentals, not viper's design. Paying attention to your buffs and debuffs is an incredibly foundational skill, which viper's design - as with many job designs - assumes the player understands. Changing the job's design to account for a lack of fundamental understanding regarding how the game itself works is, at best, extremely misguided.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Like I said, I don't consider that normal though, that's dangerously distracted driving.

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Keeping track of your rotation's current state is more analogous to keeping track of your car's current state - your speed, positioning, managing blinkers, etc. That's not distracted driving. That's just driving. If someone needing to remember to use their blinkers or watch their speedometer is too much of a mental load, then maybe they shouldn't be on the road.

Well, with how much subjectivity is involved with perceived difficulty, I don't think the conversation will stay very productive if we go down this road. The game does have something that can help break things down empirically though, something that I invite everyone reading this to try.

The strayborough expert dungeon we have right now has two somewhat notable bosses. I think everyone should be able to perform flawless runs of both of them, tracking hazards solely by themselves, while keeping up an optimal rotation with 100% uptime throughout. I think you should be able to do this three, even five times in a row, no matter the quality of your party (the randomness is part of the fun).

If you've truly become adept at your job, and minimized the effort it takes to pilot, I think this is a reasonable ask. If you're unable to do so, I'd like to gently suggest that in that case, the notion that the job is designed intuitively enough does not hold. I mean, can anyone truly claim a job is operating fine if they are still making mistakes? However straightforward the job was claimed to be, it clearly wasn't sufficient to assist them through this.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

I mean, can anyone truly claim a job is operating fine if they are still making mistakes?

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... yes???? This is a complete non-sequitur. A job operating fine does not equate to making mistakes impossible. To continue your car analogy from earlier, that's like forgetting your blinkers and trying to blame the car for not automatically using them for you. A lack of skill or experience from a pilot does not inherently imply a flaw in job design. To reiterate what I stated above, changing the job's design to account for a lack of fundamental understanding regarding how the game itself works is, at best, extremely misguided.

Whether or not it makes me happy is not the point. It’s just a bunch of people crying over something they haven’t gotten even any details about regarding changes while seemingly “gatekeeping” difficulty… for what? I don’t care if the class changes or not, apparently some do and it’s enough to cry about it without even having a full picture.

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Originally Posted by Rhael

A job operating fine does not equate to making mistakes impossible.

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No, it makes complete sense to me. If someone says it's fine for a job to require glancing at their hotbar, and that causes them to be unable to keep up with mechanics that also require attention, then what gives? There's a clear contradiction happening.

So this is what I'm talking about when I say I have higher standards for competence. Other people may be content tunnel visioning on their hotbar and getting carried by someone else doing callouts, but I'm not. I suspect that many people feel this way intuitively, which is why when I heard the news about the feedback (presumably coming from the JP side), I was not surprised at all.

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Originally Posted by Myon88

Unless you keep a mental note of what your last finisher was 3 gcds ago, you'll need to rely on the UI to tell you which one it's gonna be - be it the gauge or your hotbars.

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Keep a mental note?... why would anyone struggle to remember something they did 5 seconds ago? what in the world am I reading???
Guys is this the kind of people the devs are trying to accommodate? at this point just delete 90% make the entire rotation a single button so they don't have to think anything. They don't want to engage with the combat system, they just want the easiest way to play around. Never forget guys, we finally had ONE job to have fun, while they had 20 that are easy to play but that wasn't enough. We couldn't have a single job to finally have fun.

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Originally Posted by hunter2

Isn't busyness the whole point of the job? What identity does it have if not high apm? I've only seen praise for the apm amongst my friends so I'm baffled that they think this is an issue worth addressing.

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I’m guessing that the “busyness” is referring to the Coil combo, where you have two positionals and four oGCDs to do within the space of two GCDs happening very frequently, I can’t immediately recall any other situation where you have to do two subsequent positionals, let alone while double weaving, so the speed that they changed this may imply that “positional (double weave) > positional” goes against an internal design guideline and feedback made them aware of that, rather than directly acting on feedback

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Originally Posted by Pentacus

I can’t immediately recall any other situation where you have to do two subsequent positionals, let alone while double weaving,

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sigh
I miss Stormblood Monk.

This has been pointed out earlier, but VPR is currently the most played job in Extremes by a significant margin. This is on top of the fact that support jobs have fewer jobs for the same number of slots (2 jobs for 1 slot vs. 3 jobs for 1 slot), so you'd ordinarily expect them to have slightly higher counts within clear runs than the most popular DPS (as was the case back in Endwalker). There's always a bigger learning curve associated with a newly released job, in part because you don't have previous experience to draw on, and in part because the optimization tech is going to change quite rapidly alongside job changes. If you're not already extremely comfortable on this job you should strongly be looking at other options. Advocating for simplifications will get players nowhere, because they're still likely to be gated out in favor of people who have put in the effort already.

The Coil/Den combo isn't a true doubleweave sequence due to the longer GCD length. It actually feels more like the Mudra inputs on NIN. Rinon reported that the media tour attendees were recommended a 'piano' setup where you can glissando the keys. I personally have the four buttons in sequence as my 1-4 keys, with the base combo as Q and E. This setup also works well for Reawaken. The positionals on the sequence are quite straightforward and you have a lot of time to get to them.

The only thought process that I could see behind them removing the positionals on these is if they were previously on the fence about merging down Coil and Den into a single combo that has a proximity effect (similar to how Reawaken is used in AoE). I think this proximity effect damage is what the 'range' is designed to address as well - outside of Reawaken, the base AoE range is 3 yalms instead of the standard 5 yalms. Even if that's their end goal, I'd rather them preserve the positionals on it and just change the proximity effect.

The base combos are just practice. The buff icon tells you what your next combo should be. The first button is entirely dependent on your NG timer. The second and third buttons just depend on your active buff icon, with the four permutations of 'left' and 'right' corresponding with the four possible buff icons. You also rotate through them in a set sequence, which makes it even more straightforward. I'd argue that you shouldn't be reliant on the vipersight gauge or 'dotted lines', because if you're serious about playing this job in progression you should be able to play without looking at your hotbars. These really just exist for the entry level player who wants to click their actions to play through the MSQ story mode.

no not a hard job to learn it has both good solo and aoe damage so no need to dumb it down

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Originally Posted by Pentacus

I’m guessing that the “busyness” is referring to the Coil combo, where you have two positionals and four oGCDs to do within the space of two GCDs happening very frequently, I can’t immediately recall any other situation where you have to do two subsequent positionals, let alone while double weaving, so the speed that they changed this may imply that “positional (double weave) > positional” goes against an internal design guideline and feedback made them aware of that, rather than directly acting on feedback

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DRG had back-to-back positionals until DT and would also double weave during it in their burst. If there's an internal design guideline against it, then it was added very recently.

Please don't give them any more ideas D: