dead jobs

Hewwo!
I write this as contemplation about the dead jobs in this game. They exist and I feel some dead jobs barely get discussed.

To start, I will define a dead job: A dead job is a job that may still appear in party/duty finder but is semi- to considerably rare. The key factors are lack of veterans/dedicated mains, faced constant reworks and/or was marred by inappropriate changes, and barely if ever appears on the John Fantasy WoL. The last point isn't required but adds to the general theming of dead jobs: neglect and dismissal from the devs. You can't even shoot things with your gun or bow in cutscenes...
Nevermind healer WoLs literally doing nothing in cutscenes even though their jobs would be a perfect fit for the scene.
I will not go on too many tangents about healers as I feel dead dps and tank jobs deserve attention in this thread. Of course, this does not mean I forbade conversation about healers, they are very relevant to the discussion.

To my knowledge these are the following dead jobs: mch, brd, mnk, and ast. There are likely more so I will ask you: which jobs do you feel are dead? When did their downfall start? What is your favorite iteration of the dead job?
I feel like blm may very well join the list given how the devs shot it in the foot and walked away with their new golden child, pictomancer.

I would like to preemptively apologize for my negativity I've expressed on the forums lately. I do try to be positive but it has been difficult to given that my favorite job, astrologian, has lost its last threads of identity.

Well...

Mch - Selfish dps but it's numbers weren't adding up in EW. It was also an easy job coming into EW and SMN stole that. So damage fiends went elsewhere and easy job seekers went elsewhere and that didn't leave a lot of mch fans around.

Mnk - Viewed as too complicated and that effort isn't rewarded with higher numbers. DT may have fixed this, but frankly I think the ew mnk rework, while good, missed the mark for monk mains who are probably all off playing viper at this point and cackling at their 6 positionals and 1.5ish second gcd awakening phases.

Brd - Dnc ate their lunch.

Ast - Too hard for too little personal payoff. May recover in DT, time will tell, but EW ast was deranged.

I see all of the tanks and healers regularly. There are only 4 of each.

I don’t see many monks out of all the dps. Assuming it’s one of the less popular jobs right now.

Pld and Drk bro's are completely overshadowed by War and Gnb right now. They look to be on the decline.
Can't say i'm surprised with the continued War favouritism. But hey, at least it doesn't affect me anymore.

I'm honestly disappointed in DT MNK. which is a shame because I have been mostly fine with MNK since it was my primary DPS job since HW. Now I just feel so bored with it since I no longer have to manage my timers and just have to follow the highlights the game feels I'm too stupid to do on my own. Just feels bad.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I see all of the tanks and healers regularly. There are only 4 of each.

I don’t see many monks out of all the dps. Assuming it’s one of the less popular jobs right now.

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Saw 4 monks (including me) in the last alliance roul.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I'm honestly disappointed in DT MNK. which is a shame because I have been mostly fine with MNK since it was my primary DPS job since HW. Now I just feel so bored with it since I no longer have to manage my timers and just have to follow the highlights the game feels I'm too stupid to do on my own. Just feels bad.

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Personally found it kind of smoother. Also the change increased the steps in the rotation to such a degree that i can't use the cross-hotbar cheese i used previously.

Though can see it feel worse for keyboard.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Pld and Drk bro's are completely overshadowed by War and Gnb right now. They look to be on the decline.

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I'm going through MSQ on PLD since I started as gladiator, but after that I'm jumping over to GNB just because PLD feels like "less good" GNB at the moment.

Monk has been struggling ever since around patch 2.4 if we're being honest.

The power of trick attack and emnity management on the job was incredibly strong not to mention its ability to raise tank damage by increasing the damage bosses take from slashing damage types (something not removed from the game until Shadowbringers) The addition of dark knight in heavensward really didn't help this either since monk's previous party utility of making bosses deal less magic damage was made redundant when that ability was added to a tank's toolkit.

Monk saw a few bursts of increased player interest between then and its rework in Shadowbringers, but between then every time the job got something interesting, the devs considered it an oversight and patched the job to remove those playstyles. (tornado kick/wind tackle monk in stormblood is a good example of this)

Based on what I'm seeing from their recent patch notes, I question if anyone on the development team actually plays the job since they had said that with Dawntrail the addition of fury stack wouldn't change the job's rotation, which is incorrect. (twin snakes for 5 expansions was always used every other rotation and demolish every third where now twin snakes is used every third rotation and demolish every fourth)

A lot of what's hurting the job at this point is that its playstyle hasn't attracted a lot of new players while also removing the aspects of the job that long-time monk mains loved.

The fact you started this thread with...Hewwo...is off putting to say the least. I can't take anything serious after that.

I don't think MCH is dead, I see quite a lot of them around. MNK on the other hand..
Also BLM, there's rarely one in my parties.

This whole thread is going to be dominated by class mains with a positive or (more likely) negative view of their favourite class. If by "dead" you use the definition you provided then there are only two classes that are rare, Bard and Monk. All the tanks, healers and MagicDPS have regular playtime even if the class is not "meta-optimal". People have always and will continue to play classes for the theme, BLM is one of the biggest examples. It doesn't matter what the sweaty opinion or raidlogs says people play it. There are boatloads of machinists in DF and PF and while not as common as WHM, AST are still plenty common.

If people think other jobs are dead then what they really mean is "my main has been altered in a way I dislike", which is perfectly fine, but the job ain't dead.

I never see any blue mages, gatherers, or crafters in my parties when I queue up for roulettes.

I never see Bards or Monks anymore.

From what I could see in the duty finder MNK, BRD, PLD, RDM.

Those are the four jobs that are more or less rare in my daily roulettes.

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Originally Posted by Zaniel

This whole thread is going to be dominated by class mains with a positive or (more likely) negative view of their favourite class. If by "dead" you use the definition you provided then there are only two classes that are rare, Bard and Monk. All the tanks, healers and MagicDPS have regular playtime even if the class is not "meta-optimal". People have always and will continue to play classes for the theme, BLM is one of the biggest examples. It doesn't matter what the sweaty opinion or raidlogs says people play it. There are boatloads of machinists in DF and PF and while not as common as WHM, AST are still plenty common.

If people think other jobs are dead then what they really mean is "my main has been altered in a way I dislike", which is perfectly fine, but the job ain't dead.

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that's fair. maybe the definition of dead jobs needs a modification. How might you define what makes a dead job?

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Originally Posted by Espon

I never see any blue mages, gatherers, or crafters in my parties when I queue up for roulettes.

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I get what you mean and this is probably a joke but those jobs can't really participate. BLU has some flexibility with pf of course. Being that it is a limited job, roulettes aren't an option for blue mage iirc. Crafters and gatherers are not combat jobs so I would need to have different ratings for them in terms of if any of them are dead. Though, I have heard crafters have been gutted so I would need to look into it more from that angle. There is also the aspect of usefulness in which case they have their niches (some more broadly applicable like weaver).

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

that's fair. maybe the definition of dead jobs needs a modification. How might you define what makes a dead job?

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If it makes you feel better, I just watched a video where Ast was at the top of the rDPS parses, so people do seem to be playing it. Anything that is the top performer will get play time. So, definitely not dead to me.

Not liking the rework is another issue to me.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

If it makes you feel better, I just watched a video where Ast was at the top of the rDPS parses, so people do seem to be playing it. Anything that is the top performer will get play time. So, definitely not dead to me.

Not liking the rework is another issue to me.

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I don't like the rework though I am not using my feelings as a metric for it- more so the observation I have made that it is a less common healer when I queue (not the most rigorous method of observation though so take it with a grain of salt). In regard to the rework, I considered it as a dead job because it alienated many AST mains which would make it less common.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

I don't like the rework though I am not using my feelings as a metric for it- more so the observation I have made that it is a less common healer when I queue (not the most rigorous method of observation though so take it with a grain of salt). In regard to the rework, I considered it as a dead job because it alienated many AST mains which would make it less common.

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I think we still need time to tell. If it's a top-performing healer it will pick up on some of the flavor of the month healers.

Right now I believe every class will get some play over the next few months as people "level everything to 100". When everyone's done with that we'll see more which jobs people despise lol.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I think we still need time to tell. If it's a top-performing healer it will pick up on some of the flavor of the month healers.

Right now I believe every class will get some play over the next few months as people "level everything to 100". When everyone's done with that we'll see more which jobs people despise lol.

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probably should wait then. I'll keep this thread going to see if anything changes.
Might as well ask while I am responding- which jobs do you think are dead or going to decline?

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Monk has been struggling ever since around patch 2.4 if we're being honest.

The power of trick attack and emnity management on the job was incredibly strong not to mention its ability to raise tank damage by increasing the damage bosses take from slashing damage types (something not removed from the game until Shadowbringers) The addition of dark knight in heavensward really didn't help this either since monk's previous party utility of making bosses deal less magic damage was made redundant when that ability was added to a tank's toolkit.

Monk saw a few bursts of increased player interest between then and its rework in Shadowbringers, but between then every time the job got something interesting, the devs considered it an oversight and patched the job to remove those playstyles. (tornado kick/wind tackle monk in stormblood is a good example of this)

Based on what I'm seeing from their recent patch notes, I question if anyone on the development team actually plays the job since they had said that with Dawntrail the addition of fury stack wouldn't change the job's rotation, which is incorrect. (twin snakes for 5 expansions was always used every other rotation and demolish every third where now twin snakes is used every third rotation and demolish every fourth)

A lot of what's hurting the job at this point is that its playstyle hasn't attracted a lot of new players while also removing the aspects of the job that long-time monk mains loved.

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On the new player front, it probably doesn't help that they made the job seem more complicated by giving it a third gauge and that most of its ST weaponskills use 1.0 animations until 92. I don't mind the relative lack of flashiness, but Bootshine and Twin Snakes aren't exactly eye-catching.

For Bard I think there’s a variety of issues putting people off the job. Chief among them being the fact that you work harder than many other dps jobs but you’re (supposed to be) second last of every dps. The ‘support’ the job offers is either entirely passive or useless (Warden’s Paean lol) and on a long cool-down. Rotating songs can be a major pain in certain dungeons because of how rigid your timing needs to be to keep raid buffs aligned. The importance of DoTs has been so completely minimised that they may as well not exist.

That’s not even getting into the lack of any unique support capabilities whatsoever for the job (Esuna on a 45s doesn’t count to me lol), or the major identity crisis the job is constantly having. One minute it’s a support, then a caster, then a support, then a dps, now it’s like a supporter but worse than Dancer with dps worse than Machinist.

Plus there’s the whole ‘literally doesn’t even do what it says on the tin’ because it still leans extremely heavily towards the ‘archer’ position, though that’s a personal thing lol and not (I don’t think) representative of other people’s opinions

For Astrologian there’s already many threads addressing this so I won’t go into that (hint: cards suck now lol). Though interestingly I’ve noticed there’s an extremely small amount of threads ever discussing Bard; even in threads about dps etc I rarely ever see someone mention the job lol. It’s like everyone forgot it existed (which ironically mirrors the very Bard job storyline the devs wrote lol)

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

probably should wait then. I'll keep this thread going to see if anything changes.
Might as well ask while I am responding- which jobs do you think are dead or going to decline?

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In my opinion it's probably Monk. Anything that regularly changes this much but doesn't have anything given to it to make it more compelling will probably just lose fans over time.

SMN also changed regularly, but it became the go-to "easy dps" and got a lot of flashy effects so it actually seemed to increase in audience. So, I still see them regularly even in DT. It's underperforming right now though so it may lose some players over time if its dps isn't buffed.

I think all the Healers and Tanks are fine. There isn't that much variety to choose from and even if Paladin is underperforming, it still has "Paladin Fantasy" going for it.

DPS - lots to choose from. I think other DPS that doesn't have a massive audience includes Bard and Ninja. It's too early for me to tell though how that will play out.

Pictomancer is presently probably overtuned, and new - so it could be infringing on BLM territory right now. We'll see how that changes over time also.

Black mage - the issue is if you cancel your cast the ability will cancel I wish if there is a way if you cancel you do dmg but lower than average

Red mage - not as good as summoner (all have res) and not as good as black mage (damage) and Picto take all the heat this expansion

Astro - game designers can't figure out how to make this job fun and balance

As a Monk main, Monk has never been popular. It's somewhat different from other melee jobs in a way a lot of people can't quite grok, and it doesn't make you have the biggest e-peen on your little "abacus" either. It does not attract FOTM meta chasers.

It is a very fun job to optimize though. And it makes you feel like a cross between Goku and the Avatar.

I'm probably one of the few BRDs I've seen in Seraph so far (still missing that final zone). AST is the same, I've seldom seen any of them in dungeons.

BRD has a lot of issues. Yes DNC ate our lunch as someone eloquently put it (and I'm still miffed lol), but also that the class itself just has no clear direction anymore whereas it was more akin to a support DPS role back in Stormblood.

• DoTs are somewhat disconnected from the kit so you don't lose much if you forget to IJ them.
• BRDs are punished hard if they mess up or die since songs do not reset upon death and they have a longer duration/CD. Other classes do more damage in general without this punisher.
• Ranged DPS tax.
• Everything BRD offers in terms of support is also offered by other classes at equal or greater value. Our greatest mitigation skill, Troubadour, is a shared role action so DNC and MCH also have a variation of it.
• Speaking of role actions, BRD's Troubadour can overwrite/be overwritten by MCH and DNC's own variations.
• Having multiple BRDs in a party is a pain because songs and buffs overlap one another, so you need to take turns casting Battle Voice or Radiant Finale or else you lose one entirely.
• Warden's Paean has no use outside of clearing one removable debuff every 2 minutes, and those are rare in harder content (but I like cleansing Doom in Fun Scaith Square, don't you dare take this one!).
• Healers don't even need the extra help with Minne most of the time.
• The hyperfocus on Apex Arrow as a staple of BRD's kit, when MCH will outDPS a BRD any day. Heck even our new GCD aoe doesn't quite match up since MCH now gets 2 oGCD aoes that weave well with Overheat. But I'd have to take a look at numbers for that.
• The fact that the devs keep trying to push this class into the median between MCH and DNC. BRD was a support-oriented class that is now being forced into a "strong DPS" mold, but is actually average in everything. It's out-damaged and out-supported. You have no reason to bring a BRD when other classes would be marginally better, especially for progression.

I think one of the reasons for BRD's fall from grace is really that the game seems to be pushing more towards a single-player experience, as in your support skills don't affect the other players as much as it used to. Yes you give buffs, but you can't replenish the party's MP anymore with Refresh or boost the party's TP (man remember that?). This means that the players that wanted to play support classes, without playing Healer, have moved on to the other support class, DNC, or to another role entirely.

For Dawntrail we've received little in my opinion. Potency buffs and one Super Move. And we got to keep both DoTs, so that's nice. But the core of the class, what appealed to people before, was carved out a long time ago. Current BRD is a Jack-of-all-Trades and Master of None.

I agree that I don't see Bard and Monk very often.

Bard being unpopular in FF14 is curious. In WoW, Hunter is tied with Paladin and Druid as the most popular class. In GW2, Ranger is in 3rd place behind Guardian and Necromancer. What Bard lacks compared to Hunter and Ranger is being able to tame beasts and fight alongside them. It will be interesting to see how popular the upcoming Beastmaster job will be, especially in comparison to blue mage. Another issue could be branding confusion. It's called "bard" so people expect a class that primarily sings or plays an instrument, but in gameplay it appears to be a magical archer. So people looking for an archer class don't see it (since people don't list base job along with their evolved advanced classes, and archer seemingly disappears when looking at the list of advanced classes), and people who wanted a bard class might be turned off to see that it's actually an archer, a different class fantasy.

As for Monk, punching stuff with your fists isn't as romantic as being a swordsman or a powerful sorcerer, and the job visually looks lackluster compared to other jobs like Dragoon, Reaper, Viper, etc.

As a former Monk "Main" as my chosen dps class...yeah...monks are rare. At the start of Dawntrail i couldnt get behind the new rotation and stuff. Its (in my opinion) very badly explained via the ingame guide. However, today i tried a bit around and its basically a "Create Ressource-spend ressource" rotation. Will probably level it the next days. Gonna see if i still like it at max or drop it completly. From a healer standpoint...and i did a lot of dungeons so far...ninjas are so rare too me.

BRD has definitely been on a decline ever since it was neutered in Shadowbringers to make way for DNC as the “utility/support phys ranged”. It was the most popular DPS during Stormblood, and played like a dream. It was simple pick up and learn, but had an actual gap between the skill floor and ceiling that made optimization particularly rewarding. The DoTs had nuance. Iron Jaws had nuance. There was optimization between Foe Requiem and the MP regen tool Refresh. It was the best iteration of the job by far—and then ShB happened.

I’d say even Heavensward bowmage was more common in my roulettes than ShB or EW BRD. The devs took what mains enjoyed most from the job (party support and buffing), and gave it to DNC. They also destroyed any and all optimization quirks that SB BRD had, and that made the job feel rewarding to play when done correctly. ShB BRDs (those left, anyways) had to beg for the job to get utility back, and the “best” the devs could do was return the passive song buffs—which was the last things mains were really asking for. They wanted things like MP regen/support and Palisade (free tank mitigation) back. Things that actually supported their party versus a passive buff that only relied on them doing a generic rotation to proc.

Plus, EW BRD had an extremely rigid and punishing rotation if you happened to die mid-combat. Apex Arrow was not well received in ShB, so the developers doubled down and gave BRD Apex Arrow 2 (Blast Arrow). The job still had very little party support (though Minne becoming an AOE buff was nice) that the other phys ranged didn’t already have. Mage’s Ballad becoming the weakest song versus Army’s Paeon simply because of Burst Shot’s potency and not because Army’s Paeon was suddenly interesting or had an actual mechanic to it was also just weird feeling.


I’m definitely biased, since I started playing this game with BRD, actually enjoyed HW bowmage, and adored SB BRD — but there is data on *certain websites* that actively shows the decline in BRD when it comes to high-end content. A lot from it simply not being worth taking over DNC—but there are also a lot of BRDs that simply abandoned the job with the launch of ShB because of its loss of identity and nuance. Either they just went DNC or switched to a different role entirely.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

Well...

Mch - Selfish dps but it's numbers weren't adding up in EW. It was also an easy job coming into EW and SMN stole that. So damage fiends went elsewhere and easy job seekers went elsewhere and that didn't leave a lot of mch fans around.

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I stick with it because of the cowboy glam

Easy solution: Add random class option to roulettes for extra bonus.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

If it makes you feel better, I just watched a video where Ast was at the top of the rDPS parses, so people do seem to be playing it. Anything that is the top performer will get play time. So, definitely not dead to me.

Not liking the rework is another issue to me.

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Astro is in a very weird state. It's by far the strongest healer and noticeably easier to play than any previous iteration. Unfortunately, it's also incredibly boring. I suspect a big issue is the card changes feel completely pointless. Our kits are practically exploding with defensive utility and healing. The last thing we needed was more of the same thing on a two minute CD. This alone has driven a sizable portion of the skilled players away because why bother putting in the work to play Astro when White Mage is still boring but hey, both easier and at least has Misery. Likewise, the stigma surrounding Astro has likely prevented it from getting any sort of traction amongst more casual players.

You'll definitely see it come Savage because it parses well but it's quite telling how poorly the rework has been received when it's trailing third place (Scholar) in EX logs by 16,000.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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I still don't understand why the devs seem so insistent on absolutely having a middle point between high DPS (MCH) and support (DNC), forcing it on BRD, save for easy balancing. They have their metrics and I'm pretty sure it's not looking good when it comes to this class, especially seeing as the new PCT has a wide-array of support available while still dealing an amazing amount of damage, thus being an attractive option for whatever amount of players that still shoot arrows.

I think what Bard needs right now isn't "moar damage" like they've done for 3 expansions now, it's actually exclusive buffs: Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palissade (and I know that Squadron Bards still have those last 2 so the code is absolutely in the game and ready for implementation). Stuff that other classes do not have at their disposal.

There are also ways to have 2 different types of Supports in the rDPS role, since buff options are far and wide. Heck, Foe's was a debuff so that adds even more possibilities (and it's not like the forums haven't suggested hundreds of pages worth of buffs/debuffs/classes as ideas).

People have said before that I should be happy that Bard is getting more damage.
I never wanted more damage, I just wanted to support my party in a meaningful manner without playing Healer. To say I should be happy I get to do more DPS while my support kit is crippled is ignoring the reason people enjoyed this class. If I wanted more damage, I'd play one of those that do a better job at that than Bard, like Machinist.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

I still don't understand why the devs seem so insistent on absolutely having a middle point between high DPS (MCH) and support (DNC), forcing it on BRD, save for easy balancing. They have their metrics and I'm pretty sure it's not looking good when it comes to this class, especially seeing as the new PCT has a wide-array of support available while still dealing an amazing amount of damage, thus being an attractive option for whatever amount of players that still shoot arrows.

I think what Bard needs right now isn't "moar damage" like they've done for 3 expansions now, it's actually exclusive buffs: Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palissade (and I know that Squadron Bards still have those last 2 so the code is absolutely in the game and ready for implementation). Stuff that other classes do not have at their disposal.

There are also ways to have 2 different types of Supports in the rDPS role, since buff options are far and wide. Heck, Foe's was a debuff so that adds even more possibilities (and it's not like the forums haven't suggested hundreds of pages worth of buffs/debuffs/classes as ideas).

People have said before that I should be happy that Bard is getting more damage.
I never wanted more damage, I just wanted to support my party in a meaningful manner without playing Healer. To say I should be happy I get to do more DPS while my support kit is crippled is ignoring the reason people enjoyed this class. If I wanted more damage, I'd play one of those that do a better job at that than Bard, like Machinist.

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I've been reading the replies about bard and finding once again, I am playing the game at a low point. I have picked up bard because I like the support but I do agree: it all feels passive. I like party inter-play. It makes me sad I can't even have that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Astro is in a very weird state. It's by far the strongest healer and noticeably easier to play than any previous iteration. Unfortunately, it's also incredibly boring. I suspect a big issue is the card changes feel completely pointless. Our kits are practically exploding with defensive utility and healing. The last thing we needed was more of the same thing on a two minute CD. This alone has driven a sizable portion of the skilled players away because why bother putting in the work to play Astro when White Mage is still boring but hey, both easier and at least has Misery. Likewise, the stigma surrounding Astro has likely prevented it from getting any sort of traction amongst more casual players.

You'll definitely see it come Savage because it parses well but it's quite telling how poorly the rework has been received when it's trailing third place (Scholar) in EX logs by 16,000.

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It has the same problems as Monk where it seems much more complicated than it is and it won't stop getting reworked(I think this was card rework 3 or 4), but with the added issue of a lot of its tooltips being huge and confusing. On an unrelated note, I can't believe they've reworked cards so many times and Lady of Crowns is still so terrible.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

I've been reading the replies about bard and finding once again, I am playing the game at a low point. I have picked up bard because I like the support but I do agree: it all feels passive. I like party inter-play. It makes me sad I can't even have that.

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They removed a lot of inter-party play within the DPS combat system because of balancing issues as far as I remember. A Dragoon and Bard were almost a necessary combo back in Stormblood because of how powerful it was due to the piercing debuff. But nowadays it's like I'm just playing a single-player game alongside others, and giving out some small buffs during my rotation or shooting out a Troubadour before a raid-wide (which is always the first cast of a boss. Always). I don't really interact with other players except when the Healers have to shovel my corpse off the ground.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

They removed a lot of inter-party play within the DPS combat system because of balancing issues as far as I remember. A Dragoon and Bard were almost a necessary combo back in Stormblood because of how powerful it was due to the piercing debuff. But nowadays it's like I'm just playing a single-player game alongside others, and giving out some small buffs during my rotation or shooting out a Troubadour before a raid-wide (which is always the first cast of a boss. Always). I don't really interact with other players except when the Healers have to shovel my corpse off the ground.

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Any job interplay being added is generally a welcome change for me tbh. Now, how well it would have been implemented if they added new interplay is another matter entirely...
I do sometimes interact with other players. It's pleasant to have conversations with people. Though, it can be difficult to interact because a lot of people are generally silent/don't respond even when making an important request (such as asking the tank to wipe when they are the last last one alive for any number of reasons and the boss is at 70% or something) (asking the party to pick up adds) (telling the healer to wait with ressing me because the boss is almost dead)

Monk still shows up sometimes despite being in a state that no one can ever figure out what the plan is with them. The rarest jobs are probably Ninja and Astro even with the rework to Astro. Ninja is just hard to remember how things work if someone steps away for a good long while, and it has some rather interesting burst windows that get hit hard by drift. It's the same kind of thing Gunbreaker was having except even worse than gunbreaker.

To be frank there's always going to be some jobs that just do not get played much because of being more complicated or just requiring more effort than other comparable jobs to do the same thing, and with the number of jobs increasing every expansion the trend will likely get worse.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

Any job interplay being added is generally a welcome change for me tbh. Now, how well it would have been implemented if they added new interplay is another matter entirely...)

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The only issue with piercing is that only DRG offered it, and both BRD and MCH benefited from it (+10% flat damage over the entirety of a fight in HW, nerfed to +5% in SB). This reliance caused issues for MNK at the higher ends of play back in HW because neither BRD nor MCH wanted to take a 10% damage penalty for having a MNK in the party. BRD and MCH were also both incredibly strong by the time Creator released; strong enough to completely oust the casters from parties. (NIN was also solidified in the second melee spot because of Trick Attack and its old utilities of Shadewalker and Smokescreen, which allowed tanks to remain in their DPS stances—also Goad, the TP Regen, was NIN only).

Now, this could have been fixed with MCH dealing blunt damage, which MNK had the blunt resistance down debuff on their Dragon Kick combo. BRD offered interactivity with casters since Foe Requiem was 10% magic resistance down back then. But unfortunately MCH was piercing—and unfortunately, only DRG offered that. When it came to other resistance down debuffs (Slashing and Blunt), either multiple jobs offered it (Slashing was offered by WAR and NIN in HW, and also by SAM when it came out in SB); or there was only one job that had that interactivity and also applied the resistance down itself, so there was no reliance on another job (MNK and Blunt).

I’d argue the DRG/BRD reliance was even stronger in SB due to both piercing (even with it now being 5%) and Battle Litany being a critical hit % up buff. BRD’s Repertoire mechanic in SB scaled off of crit, so having both a DRG and a SCH for Litany and Chain Strategem were definitely a high desire for any good BRD because of that interactivity.

I have nothing again interactivity between jobs. To be honest, I liked that aspect of SB BRD (specifically the crit interactions because of the DoT and Iron Jaws optimization it offered). But I cannot deny it really sucked to be a BRD in a static with a NIN/SAM melee comp, and a WHM/AST healer comp (yes, I did run into that comp sometimes even though it was uncommon).

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

I still don't understand why the devs seem so insistent on absolutely having a middle point between high DPS (MCH) and support (DNC), forcing it on BRD, save for easy balancing. They have their metrics and I'm pretty sure it's not looking good when it comes to this class, especially seeing as the new PCT has a wide-array of support available while still dealing an amazing amount of damage, thus being an attractive option for whatever amount of players that still shoot arrows.

I think what Bard needs right now isn't "moar damage" like they've done for 3 expansions now, it's actually exclusive buffs: Foe's Requiem, Refresh, Palissade (and I know that Squadron Bards still have those last 2 so the code is absolutely in the game and ready for implementation). Stuff that other classes do not have at their disposal.

There are also ways to have 2 different types of Supports in the rDPS role, since buff options are far and wide. Heck, Foe's was a debuff so that adds even more possibilities (and it's not like the forums haven't suggested hundreds of pages worth of buffs/debuffs/classes as ideas).

People have said before that I should be happy that Bard is getting more damage.
I never wanted more damage, I just wanted to support my party in a meaningful manner without playing Healer. To say I should be happy I get to do more DPS while my support kit is crippled is ignoring the reason people enjoyed this class. If I wanted more damage, I'd play one of those that do a better job at that than Bard, like Machinist.

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This is probably tin-foil hat of me, but I truly believe that the developers either believe there can’t be more than one heavy support/utility phys ranged—or they are afraid of the phys ranged absolutely dominating party comps like they did in HW and early SB (before Patch 4.1 happened and they broke SMN). A part of me even believes that they are punishing BRD for how good it was from ARR launch all the way until they destroyed it in ShB; that they think “it’s time for another job to shine” — but what they don’t realize is that the phys ranged are in a terrible state.

Like it was with ShB and thoughts were being entertained of forsaking the 1% party bonus a phys ranged would give for double BLM, now thoughts are being entertained of doing double caster AGAIN given Pictomancer’s potencies and if they decide to buff BLM for the Savage release. Instead of the phys ranged dominating anything, they are the redheaded stepchild of DPS jobs. DNC only skirts by because it can buff whatever the strongest melee is (usually SAM).

At the end of the day, I never cared about being top DPS. What I enjoyed was the optimization and part support SB BRD and even HW BRD offered (though the HW songs being a 10% damage penalty was a dumb design). I would give anything to have SB BRD back. Power creep and all because let’s be honest: there’s very little care about job balance in this game, so why destroy one job for it. I would even take bowmage back—but I actually liked bowmage, so… (yeah, I know I’m the minority there LOL).

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Glad to see I'm not alone with enjoying Bow Mage! Despite the casting being a bit awkward, I found myself enjoying the class before the SB overhaul (and what an overhaul it was, I miss it so much).

All ranged DPS classes are in a weird spot. Their buffs are sort of available in other roles (I know MNK's Mantra offers the same as Nature's Minne) or don't offer enough meaningful support/DPS that raid compositions seem willing to forgo them entirely for a higher damage dealer/faster kill time. Heck I felt rather insulted when Pictomancer's support was showcased. We're supposed to be the "Support DPS" role, so why does a caster get as much as they did while still retaining higher-end damage?!

It's also that the combat system is specifically designed and polished for one thing: Dodge, Mechanics and Kill. From the few fights I did recently, you do not get cleansable debuffs in higher-end stuff. That's already a situational unique skill of Bard's that will thus never be useful. And it's sad because those situations do make for a nice story! Like saving that Healer from a last-minute Doom that would've seen your alliance wiped.

I wasn't around for ShB (I quit the game once the crippled support was revealed - just recently returned), so I don't know how the raid scene was then or even throughout EW. However I think it says something when you can have two of the same role except for rDPS...
Even in PVP they crippled BRD so much with the Silence 3-way-nerf while others merely got a duration or range nerf. It's like they have something in particular against the ranged guys I swear.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

Hewwo!

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