About Zoraal Ja (DT Spoilers)

I have been thinking about one thing Zoraal Ja mentions early on, about how the younger population is clamouring for expansionism that would result in war without knowing the kind of hell that war is.

Then you have Koana stepping down and giving Wok Lamat his support at some point and I thought Zoraal Ja would do the same in a completely different way.

I thought he would pretend to contest Lamat's rule by causing a civil war so he could teach the cruelty of war to the young generation so Lamat's peace offering feels more attractive. Then at the end of the conflict he would either be defeated and/or killed as a bad guy and that would cement support for Lamat despite her inexperience. Lamat would of course be devastated by this once she realizes it (either because he states it outright on his dying breath, speculation, or just because it's obvious).

Yet this isn't what happened. Would this angle make a better story or better characterization than simply one selfish guy who has daddy issues and wants to rule at all cost? Maybe it's a little cheesy.

I have pretty hot takes on Zoraal Ja because I unironically think he's the best villain we've got in a long time. I wrote them here (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-full-spoilers) originally but I'll copy-paste it here.

https://i.ibb.co/Fw1F6Mx/Screenshot-...-30-200202.png

This might be controversial, but I think Zoraal Ja is hands-down the best villain we had in the entire game.

Moreover, Zoraal Ja is my favorite character in the entire Dawntrail MSQ. I think Zoraal Ja is the best three-dimensional villain that we've got who isn't just a moral dilemma villain like Emet Selch.

I admit my bias here, in that I love ASOIAF and am loving the current season of House of the Dragon. I love seeing the conflicts within a family. Some of the best stories in literature use the family as a unit to explore the tension and drama of humanity. This is why Zoraal Ja worked so well for me. He is a villain that only works in context of his family.

We get slight hints that Gulool Ja Ja isn't necessarily the best father in the story. Zoraal Ja feels spurned by his father and does not seem to bear the same love for him his siblings do, despite being Gulool Ja Ja's son by blood. We don't get many details of his relationship with Gulool Ja Ja, but it seems that Gulool Ja Ja wasn't trying to prod his son open and wasn't opening him up as a parent should. Zoraal Ja also did not have a close relationship with his siblings. Koana and Wuk Lamat both describe him as introverted and a mystery.

https://i.ibb.co/j5jq5ND/Screenshot-...-30-201604.png

The pressures of his birthright and people's expectations of him also, ironically drove a wedge between him and his citizens. Effusive praise leads to alienation. By calling him a Miracle, he was Othered and treated not as his own person, but as the culmination of people's hopes and their wants. This is also why I hate people like G'raha Tia constantly praising the WoL and calling us a hero. It's not friendly. It's alienating.

Imagine for a moment all the pressures of living up to your heroic father, who united the two continents, brokered peace between centuries-old rivals, and pacified continent-ending threats. Can anyone really even achieve half of what Gulool Ja Ja has done? What will they say if you fail? What would happen if tensions between the tribes flare up again? Will the people who called you a "Miracle", the "Promised", the "deserving heir" start to call you a "mistake"? A "Curse"? The "decay" in the natural cycle of civilization after your father's "growth"?

No wonder Zoraal Ja is not just alienated from his subjects but also his father.

https://i.ibb.co/XSjpQwd/Screenshot-...-30-202042.png

In the end, alienated from everyone, he could only trust himself. The expectations turned his father into the object of hate, the source of his woes. The pressures he experienced as the trueborn heir perverted his ideology and drive, compelling him to prove that he is superior. Because if he conquered the world, no one would dare call him the lesser to Gulool Ja Ja.

He sank deeper into this dark path, became a patricide, and nearly became a filicide.

https://i.ibb.co/tCQgKLP/Screenshot-...-30-203707.png

In these moments we see how closely the writers stuck to the theme of Zoraal Ja. His backstory and the atrocities he committed are all closely related to theme of "family". His choice of weapons mirrored that of his father. Even his attacks relate to his theme:
https://i.ibb.co/Bc8fW2q/Screenshot-...-30-204138.png

He hates his son because he hates what his father has done to him. But his father hasn't probably antagonized him or beat him up directly. I can't imagine Gulool Ja Ja doing that to Zoraal Ja when he loved Wuk Lamat and Koana. Zoraal Ja is the product of what happens when lofty expectations and worship alienate someone from their own family. We see this at play with royal families too. Gulool Ja Ja probably just did not have the capacity to reach out to his son, or he was simply too busy to. Much like real world royal families.

I hope Square Enix can write more villains or characters like these in the future. It's deep, dark at the right moments, and speaks to the nature of human conflict. Unfortunately neither Wuk Lamat nor Koana came close to this depth despite getting far more screentime.

https://i.ibb.co/k8RK3cy/Screenshot-...-30-205233.png

Also he's just a badass with a badass theme (but some people might understandably think it doesn't fit FF14). I don't think we've really seen that many badass villains like Zoraal Ja since Gaius and Ravana.

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As to how we can improve Zoraal Ja...

I think Zoraal Ja is on the extreme end of the "show, don't tell" spectrum, where much of his characterization comes from very subtle cues like him staring a second too long, and a lot of it comes from what he does not do.

I just don't really know what the right balance between "show don't tell" and "so vague and subtle that everyone missed it" would be.

I personally don't think Gulool Ja Ja was abusive towards his son. He does love his children after all.

I thought about this for a bit and I think there are a few small changes that could've been done to make Zoraal Ja a more compelling villain:

1) During his father's death scene Gulool Ja Ja could've said something like "I failed him... I failed Zoraal Ja". My takeaway of their relationship was that Gulool Ja Ja was a good king but not necessarily a good parent. He notices Zoraal Ja's flaws (he doesn't listen to advice) but does not seem to have taken any action to remedy that. It's like a parent noticing your school shooter child being aloof but not really doing anything about it.

It would be weird for Gulool Ja Ja to not love his son and only his love for Wuk Lamat was very clear. He barely talks about Koana too. More should've been written to convey his love for all three of his children.

2) IMHO the "family" theme of Dawntrail was the most compelling theme to me. As such we would also probably benefit from learning more about their family history (this would probably also flesh out Koana and Wuk Lamat more). We need to learn about how Zoraal Ja became closed off. Wuk Lamat mentioned how Zoraal Ja never talks at the dinner table while she and the Vow of Resolve talk a lot, with Koana and the Vow of Reason chiming in here and there. This was an interesting family dynamic to me but it never really gets fleshed out. Wuk Lamat looked up to Zoraal Ja once, and it would benefit the player to learn about how he slowly changed and why Wuk Lamat finally decided to become a claimant.

3) The first arc of the story was dreadfully boring and honestly if it we were also learning more deeply about their family dynamic and history it would alleviate a lot of the boredom.

At the moment, indeed a lot is left to interpretation and the cues are pretty subtle. I personally enjoy leaning far into subtlety and filling in the blanks, but I don't think that will be compromised if they fleshed out the backstory of Gulool Ja Ja's family further during the first five levels. There's so much potential there because I don't believe his family was fully functional. Even mildly dysfunctional families can create catastrophe. It's why The Crown was so compelling because it offers a look at how family dynamics can become distorted and magnify even the mildest of dysfunction because of the pressures of royalty. ASOIAF and HotD also shows us some of that, though to a more extreme level. This would've been a perfect theme to chew on in the first five levels because man... stuff like trading with Pelupelu is just really boring.

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Another comment:

I can agree that Zoraal Ja deserved more exposition. I wish we actually got more insight to the family dynamics of his family. That would've been something somewhat low-stakes but still intriguing and has potential for great depth. Instead after 50 hours we still barely know anything about Wuk Lamat's family and a lot of it has to be pieced together.

I do still think Zoraal Ja was a really nuanced and good villain though. His scenes in the first arc already hint at a deep-seated rage and also his alienation from everyone else. He barely responds to his follower when he praises him, and he has that intense stare when he's angry at someone. I think only a few tweaks would make him much better:

1) Some flashbacks to what happened when Zoraal Ja was young and the family dynamics.

2) At least one scene where he shows rage against his father (which would be his silent seething stare).

3) Show his discomfort with people constantly praising him in at least one scene.

It might not be everyone's cup of tea because much of his characterization actually comes from what he does not do, but this is exactly why I find him such a fascinating villain. It's deep, deep into the end of "show, don't tell".

Oh dang I was looking for that thread, but it wasn't about Zoraal Ja in the title so I missed it.

To m Zoraal Ja suffers from the same thing Wuk Lamat suffers: the idea of is character is very good but the execution is so abyssmal that I just couldn't take him seriously. Imo it's not enough to have a good struggle (and I agree in principle Zoraal Ja's conflict is very interesting) but also how it is conveyed. But whereas Wuk showered us with platitudes about friendship and peace, he showered us with one-liner platitudes in his own right that sound about as deep as a puddle.

The "I don't trust myself screenshot" is a good example for this imo. During that last fight it seemed like they wanted to forcefully make him Profound(TM) by giving him a bucket list of exposition lines that felt so out of place in that moment.
They didn't feel like something a person like him would just say out loud all of a sudden in that situation, but what the writers needed to get out there before the story ends (why would he, who valued strength above all else and rejected everything weak while also never talking to others about his struggles, suddenly openly admit even possessing weaknesses in front of his arch enemies?). Instead of 1) competently building up his conflict over time and then 2) using the methods of showing/contextual story telling to get their message across (as past expacs have done in many other boss fights).

He seemed more like a mouthpiece that spoonfed us "characterisation" the last minute, shoving down our throat what the writers desperately wanted us to think.

Coming back to the "weakness" example, during the boss fight there are mirages of other Mamool Ja (a bit like the adds during Tsukuyomi's fight but less impressive) and he has to announce for us "Is this my weakness given shape?" or something. As if the writers had to make really, really sure that we got it because "do you understand, those NPCs that talk about the things he very obviously doesn't like are reflections of his weakness and inner conflict!!!".
Him officially proclaiming "behold, those are my weaknesses" felt so OOC and unnatural, not like a normal person would react. (He could have said something like a mad "What the hell are you doing here?" or any kind of other emotional reaction instead of some very obvious exposition comments.)

I felt the very same about his final speech to Mini Gulool Ja.

On that note, his son suffers from the "good idea, bad execution" phenomenon as well: In principle the idea that Zoraal Ja has a child he neglects and rejects because of his own struggles with his father is very intriguing. The same goes for mini Gulool Ja connecting with Wuk who wants to kill his father. In itself this is a complex and tense family constellation.
But. But. The way it was written completely ruined it for me, because it was implemented in the most illogical, amateurish, on the nose way. Where does this child come from? No idea, nobody cares. Does this child have any kind of personality? No, he's just an idealised mouth piece that spouts the lines the writers need him to say even though a normal child wouldn't sound like that.
Mini Gulool Ja as a person felt like an afterthought. He was nothing but an offensively obvious plot device that was thrown into the story to make you feel Big Things(TM). (Offensive because I really felt like the writers think their audience is plain stupid. Which is an impression I had gotten on several occasions.) He had absolutely zero emotional effect on me.

Because of the poor writing Zoral Ja just felt like a comically one-dimensional cartoon villain to me. It is sad because he had potential to be very interesting. It would also have been very interesting to paint a more complex picture of Gulool Ja. As you said, somebody who wasn't necessarily the best father even though he meant well. That would have been a nice contrast to the likeable and heroic old man he was presented as to us.
But then again, Wuk Lamat had potential to be interesting. Dawntrail had potential to be interesting. The good foundation couldn't save it from the horrible execution.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Zoraal Ja suffers from the same thing Wuk Lamat suffers: the idea of is character is very good but the execution is so abyssmal

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You know, the more I think about it, the more I realize that perhaps the reason I like Zoraal Ja so much is because the rest of the cast was so bland that Zoraal Ja seemed much more interesting in comparison; the idea of Wuk Lamat isn't even interesting in the first place, much less the execution.

Also 100% agreed that it would've been better if he said "what the hell are you doing here" instead.

However I do have to defend his execution a bit, because it's not every day we get a character from Square Enix where you learn so much about his personality from merely a scene of him just staring at someone without saying anything (although it was partially ruined by Krile just explaining it out a few times). The theming of Zoraal Ja was also really tight, and is something I wish the writers tried a bit more of. He killed his father, choked his son, and wanted to kill his siblings. This is a villain whose most shocking deeds in the story wasn't invading another reflection, or harvesting souls, or genocide (though of course he wanted to do that as well), but something much more primal, much more raw: killing his family. I also felt his seething rage growing and growing over the story even if he barely ever shows it. At least on this part I thought the writers did a good job at portraying his increasing anger.

I think part of the problem is that by the time we meet Zoraal Ja, he was already irredeemable. Most of his inner conflicts would've happened before we even met him, while he was still growing up. We really needed to learn about the royal family's history much more, and in a way without any flashbacks it's like we met a villain whose development is already complete and leaves us to piece together what happened before.

The whole time I was like "this is just lizard zenos"

Zenos somehow managed to be a more believable villain then him by virtue of the fact that the circumstances he was raised under felt like something that could have reasonably led to him becoming the fight-crazy simple-minded individual he was.

The sole motive for Zoraal Ja's behavior is he wants to prove the "miracle" of his birth by surpassing his father...except he not only goes about it in about the worst way possible, it runs so insanely contrary to how anyone else in his family feels that it just feels extremely forced out of need for them to have a designated villain against all logic. I cannot reasonably believe someone raised under an individual widely believed to be one of the benevolent people in the world could end up the way he did; that he never once expressed the burden of expectation he put on himself to others in his family to be talked away from the self-destructive mindset he ended up adopting.

Of all the new characters introduced in DT, Zoraal Ja is the only one whose introduction I think about, so at least he made an impression.

I just wish that the writers executed him differently, because by the second time Krile had to explain that she got real bad vibes from him, Wuk tells us he's a warmonger (and yet has no idea how he's become this way despite growing up with him -- yes, I think digging into that past could have made ALL the new characters more compelling) and then he just stops being a character and starts doing blatantly evil stuff as soon as he's disqualified...

I didn't get to see how he dealt with any of that pressure and questioned why he didn't at least return to his father because at that point in the story I still wasn't fully sure who he was, and the next time I saw him he was himself 30 years later doubling down that same path. I was pretty bored and confused by how he turned out because I felt blindsided by a character that felt like the writers largely forgot about (even the ending didn't want to include him).

Zoraal Ja's motivations are revealed far too subtly in a game that no longer has the restraint to not make comedic 'boink' sound effects emphasizing character movement in the main story.

A less subtle way of explaining to the player why Zoraal Ja is the way he is would be with the WoL's echo.

Instead all you get is Krile's echo telling her he has a lot of scary hate. This probably makes most of the playerbase see him as simply a really evil person who is evil just because.

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Originally Posted by Titor

The whole time I was like "this is just lizard zenos"

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For me, Bakuul at first came off as trying to be "Lizard Zenos"... But then when they gave him a backstory and proper motivation, I'd say he became the best written character of the first half of the expansion. Only to be completely dropped for the second half... He is in a total of 3 cutscenes in the second half of the expansion, it was a massive wasted opportunity by just leaving him be... They could have given him an actual proper redemption arc by bringing him to Vanguard and beyond and ultimately to fight Zazool.

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

A less subtle way of explaining to the player why Zoraal Ja is the way he is would be with the WoL's echo.

Instead all you get is Krile's echo telling her he has a lot of scary hate. This probably makes most of the playerbase see him as simply a really evil person who is evil just because.

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Presenting it without commentary might let players form opinions different from the ones the writers want you to have. A lot of writers in general(especially in very prevalent media) seem afraid of that.

I never bought his motive that he wanted to teach an appreciation for peace by conquering the world. I always assumed he was out to prove he was as special as his birth suggested and so if his father claimed two continents, then he needed to claim the world. And I was right. He didn't care about peace, he just had a ridiculously large ego.

Well, he definitely ain't Lizard Zenos. For one, Zenos probably cared that we exist more than any other character in the story.

And Zenos didn't have identity crises or manifestations of fear or memories or loathing like Yotsuyu, Elidardbert or Zoraal Ja; he WAS a crisis manifestation for two of em.

I loved more the potential of Zoraal Ja within the Rites than whatever "writing" they came up for him. From the get-go we are told he's a warmonger (hence evil and the villain) and Krile's bullshit Echo moment reinforces his evilness while not showing it. Come to think of it, we seldom even see Zoraal Ja perform evil deeds until the latter half of the Rites so it goes from 0 to 100 fast (compared to Bakool Ja Ja who does rather unforgivable things and is then forgiven).

When you see the contestants, the sons and daughter of the Tural leader of Peace, it could have been an idea for all 3 to focus on a different way to go about a Kingdom people's happiness. You see Wuk trying to maintain a status quo she doesn't even understand, Koana wishes to expand on technologies while renouncing traditions and Zoraal Ja with territory expansion while foregoing the cost. Heck you even see people ask for more land when he comes out the castle gate. A good opportunity to show the cost of expansion and the issues that arise when a Kingdom that grows too fast is in need of it, as Tural is about 80 years old (very young for a Kingdom). All this while he's carrying the Other title, the "Resilient Son", that puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on his shoulders. A pressure he can't delegate or give away because of what he is, the miracle.

But then it doesn't even matter if he'd won or not, because his father already had a favorite contestant from the get-go and wouldn't relinquish his throne if not found worthy. Family drama that's worth digging there! There's no one in his family that even reaches out to him like they do strangers or even villains that nearly killed them.

That's all thrown away when he manages to get the keystones, the key to the golden city and then goes to kill his dad and attack Tuliyolall. He's now fully evil, no one likes him (not even his queen or son) so there's not a single shred of remorse or understanding from anyone when he has to be put down. He's the scapegoat in a story that says "War is bad! Peace and Understanding is good!" despite our WoL having slayed thousands to achieve that same Peace in other expansions. Complex situations reduced to black and white, easy autopilot thinking.

Then again, maybe I'm just expecting too much from FF14's MSQ. I don't know; this is all headcanon in a direction I personally find would've been more interesting than what we got.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Moreover, Zoraal Ja is my favorite character in the entire Dawntrail MSQ. I think Zoraal Ja is the best three-dimensional villain that we've got who isn't just a moral dilemma villain like Emet Selch.

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The only thing I want to say is... I've never seen Emet-Selch as a villain, but instead, an antagonist. He would get on the WoL's way aggressively, but not with overt malice intent.

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Originally Posted by Titor

The whole time I was like "this is just lizard zenos"

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Lizard Vergil. They made him walk the same "I need more power." path, but with none of the hardships that led Vergil to go down that path. Zoraal Ja literally just buckled under the weight of responsibility and was a depressed blue-scaled emo boy.

I don't like the character because his goals were:

- one is he wants to surpass his father, he has immense pressure put on him, and eventually he cracks when he can't live up to it
- another is he thinks the best path for Tuli is to go to war, see the folly of war, and be peaceful because of that

The first think is kind of cringe imo, it's such a weak motivator to go all murderous. The 2nd thing requires such a leap of logic to think it would work that it's just stupid.

If he wanted to be better than his father, and his father's whole slick was using diplomacy to bring the country together, I'm not sure why he doesn't go the route of being a even better diplomat or something.

I agree with what OP said and thought of something similar in that maybe he thought he could only unite the people by founding a common enemy to fight against.

The story would be better if instead of some paradise of peace, Tuli was at the tip of its breaking point and only barely held together by Gulool Ja Ja's diplomacy skills, but with the head of reason gone this is starting to fail. That's where Zoral's plan comes into play, he thinks diplomacy will eventually fail so it's better to make up some war with Eorzea or himself or something to unite the people against a common enemy.

All I kept thinking during the later Zoraal Ja sections was "uhm okay but what happened to little Gulool Ja's mother?".

I'm serious, what's the story behind Zoraal Ja somehow getting laid? It would be one thing if he had sired offsprings for the sake of heirs to his throne, but 1) the regulator already made him "immortal" which functionally rendered the continuation of his bloodline unecessary and 2) he continually refused to acknowledge Gulool Ja as his child, so he clearly had no interest in taking advantage of familial structures as a way to remain in power. I feel like there are parts of this backstory/lore that are missing, because Zoraal Ja randomly fathering a child just seems so... out of character from what we know of him, again because he wants to keep his power to himself and not share it with any relatives (by blood or otherwise). Hell even the characters in the msq openly state that "well we don't know FOR SURE that this kid is Zoraal Ja's son but who else's son would he be?", so for all we know little Gulool Ja could just be born from a completely unrelated family and he just happens to have blue scales, just like mutations happen randomly in nature.

I have two (or rather two and a half) kind of sort of theories about it but both of them fall apart for reasons I will explain.

One is that he simply fell in love with a female mamool ja who passed away shortly after little Gulool Ja's birth and that he was so struck with grief that he couldn't bear to even look at his son since he reminded him too much of his dead wife. A variation of this theory could also be that after mating with his wife, Zoraal Ja saw his love (or just sexual attraction) for her as a sign of weakness on his part (something something love is useless blah blah I stand alone) and abandoned her and little Gulool Ja. However, since there is literally ZERO references made to little Gulool Ja's mother made by Zoraal Ja, she obviously did NOT have a big impact on his life, not even worth an uwu sad flashback or spiteful, offhand comment like "I shouldn't have knocked up that weak wench".

The other possibility is that Zoraal Ja as a conqueror, shall we say, commited warcrimes against a random female mamool ja and little Gulool Ja was the result. But that doesn't work either because again he shows no interest in continuing his bloodline, and in the case he WAS into that idea, we would probably see WAY more blue mamool ja kids running around instead of only little Gulool Ja. Unless SE plan on revealing something VERY dark in regards to Zoraal ja's character in future patches, I don't see this as a probable explanation.

Or maybe some mamool ja can do that lesbian lizard species thing and produce offspring without a mate and the resulting offpsring is a clone of its parent idk lol

Honestly? I thought he was really boring.

Up to around the second act, I had thought his underling Sareel was manipulating him (and thank god it wasn’t an Ascian in disguise..ugh).

I was hoping that a) it would be Sareel that took control of S9/Everkeep, and b) that Wuk would try to redeem Zoraal but c) he is just too far gone mentally, leading her and us to deal with the “can’t save everyone” line. Maybe at best for Zoraal to die as a hero ina last ditch Vader kinda thing.

Meh. I get what they wanted, but it was pretty flat for me. He was a badass though.

I honestly felt most of the characters were interchangeable, due to how it was set up (like with your example)
I know it cant be done in the FFXIV format, but in a single player game, it woulda been cool to pick which claimant you wanted to join, and also effect which got paired with wuk in the cooking trial. There was a lot of potential. (In the cooking trial, i was hoping we paired with either ja or ja ja. i didnt care which, just so long as it wasnt koana... well that didnt happen...)

I feel like a lot of the write ups about Zoraal Ja are people who just skipped all Zenos cutscenes or something. Even if half of these imagined speculations were in the game, they wouldn't exactly be fresh. But you have to speculate because they barely use him for most of the game. It's all crammed into the end and not satisfying at all. I literally did not care when he was defeated and his existential crisis seemed like a joke. I didn't know why he was born either.

And I could totally appreciate him being a very non talky take on a Zenos archetype villain except that's just not what we got. Writers just failed and people are filling in holes for them.

I never got the sense that he was strong enough to care about (which may well have been intentional/something they could leverage). Even in the duel against his dad he gets soundly defeated until the cheat engine kicks in. Sure he’d be 50 odd at the time, but given the technological edge he had and the pivotal moment to his character it’s meant to be, scraping a victory there with an unfair edge would still allow the “was it really *his* victory?” angle while not making him look so bad. It could even have been a moment for WL’s tendency to impulsively insert herself to have negative consequences- a cheap shot after the duel allowing the cheat engine to activate and as consequence for this zorool ja could order the previously standard around threateningly soldiers to make a nuisance of themselves (rather than showing up guns blazing). It should also have been an echo vision so it’s too late by the time the wol finds out rather than having to sit around like a pudding in cutscene.

The boss form with the missing second head was a nice bit of visual storytelling though.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

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I whole heartly disagree, tho i'd say he has potential to be one

He was my favourite until s9 happen
He is no longer a stoic brave general with dark philosophy view
He's just a wuss who refuse to fight anyone even the house cat without spare soul at his disposal
He became a coward gecko who broke his own oath and honor to duel 1v1 and made a call to arm to involve citizen without finishing the fight he started
He even using the child as a shield just to save his skin

AND last if not least, he has no philosophy left in him by the end, just and inferiority complex lizard

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Originally Posted by ReynTime

A less subtle way of explaining to the player why Zoraal Ja is the way he is would be with the WoL's echo.

Instead all you get is Krile's echo telling her he has a lot of scary hate. This probably makes most of the playerbase see him as simply a really evil person who is evil just because.

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Honestly, this moment made me laugh because I went "oh he's Anakin Skywalker".

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Originally Posted by Titor

The whole time I was like "this is just lizard zenos"

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Is he, though? Zenos is a massively-messed-up-in-the-head Blood Knight trope. The game itself doesn't really present us with a whole lot of his backstory, so he seems like just a crazy psycho with a weird fixation on us because we're the first person who has been able to make him feel something in a long time. If you do look into his backstory through the short stories and Ecyclopaedia Eorzea, you find out his father was completely cold and uncaring, his trainer abused him and there are strong hints at him being experimented on. It doesn't excuse his actions, but it does at least partially explain why he wouldn't be completely "normal".

Zoraal Ja would, I guess, fall into being a Well Intentioned Extremist trope? His motivation for being evil and refusing to see reason is that he...is a gifted kid? It's like dude, I get it. I'm also a former gifted kid. I know what it feels like when it seems like everyone expects the world from you. It does tend to lead to depression, anxiety and generally feeling like you're a failure, which was hinted at with some of his lines at the end. However, I don't see Galool Ja Ja being that kind of parent at all. He is constantly portrayed as incredibly wise and kind. I don't know if Namikka only raised Lamat or the other children as well, but she seemed really kind as well.

The only explanation for him going insane we get is Krile feeling some kind of "darkness" inside his heart, which feels exactly as stupid as it was when Star Wars used it to explain Anakin Skywalker turning to the Dark Side.

I originally thought we would be able to make him see reason. I thought it would end up with Lamat on the throne, Koana in charge of technology and Zoraal Ja as the head of the guard/defensive army. He could have his big heroic moment when S9 invades.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I originally thought we would be able to make him see reason. I thought it would end up with Lamat on the throne, Koana in charge of technology and Zoraal Ja as the head of the guard/defensive army. He could have his big heroic moment when S9 invades.

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Yes. They spent so much time building up Sareel (the underling) that I was almost groaning "aw gawd another ascian manipulating people"... I mean glad it wasn't one, but what was the point of building up this Kefka-like character if he's just killed in moment of "eh, don't need 'em". Why wasn't that slimeball the bigger bad?

I was expecting him to have raised Zoraal in a similar vein to Lamat's "mother figure", but poisoning his mind/filling him with hatred. For him to have maniuplated the entire expedition to the Gold City (writing letter, convincing Reason to make the treasure hunt). All a super long-game ploy to get HIS hands on the throne. Again, was hoping for a Kefka.

But nope! He was just a useless tool that got disposed of.. apparently.

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

I whole heartly disagree, tho i'd say he has potential to be one

He was my favourite until s9 happen
He is no longer a stoic brave general with dark philosophy view
He's just a wuss who refuse to fight anyone even the house cat without spare soul at his disposal
He became a coward gecko who broke his own oath and honor to duel 1v1 and made a call to arm to involve citizen without finishing the fight he started
He even using the child as a shield just to save his skin

AND last if not least, he has no philosophy left in him by the end, just and inferiority complex lizard

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Frankly I prefer it that way. A prefer a villain that doesn't have some "philosophy" behind him and is evil because of "human factors".

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Yes. They spent so much time building up Sareel (the underling) that I was almost groaning "aw gawd another ascian manipulating people"... I mean glad it wasn't one, but what was the point of building up this Kefka-like character if he's just killed in moment of "eh, don't need 'em". Why wasn't that slimeball the bigger bad?

I was expecting him to have raised Zoraal in a similar vein to Lamat's "mother figure", but poisoning his mind/filling him with hatred. For him to have maniuplated the entire expedition to the Gold City (writing letter, convincing Reason to make the treasure hunt). All a super long-game ploy to get HIS hands on the throne. Again, was hoping for a Kefka.

But nope! He was just a useless tool that got disposed of.. apparently.

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Oh yeah! I was also expecting him to be some kind of an éminence grise, trying to puppetteer the new rulers from the shadows. And then he just...died. With no fanfare. Very disappointing.

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Up to around the second act, I had thought his underling Sareel was manipulating him (and thank god it wasn’t an Ascian in disguise..ugh).

I was hoping that a) it would be Sareel that took control of S9/Everkeep, and b) that Wuk would try to redeem Zoraal but c) he is just too far gone mentally, leading her and us to deal with the “can’t save everyone” line. Maybe at best for Zoraal to die as a hero ina last ditch Vader kinda thing.

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Same, I thought he was going to be endgame and the three siblings would work things out and defend their home together.

Yeah… I mean it’s SE’s story, so they can do what they want to do, but this is a second time they’ve just done a “and now for the actual big bad” in the late late 2nd act of the story.

Meteion I could accept even if I didn’t really like it..but now once again after the main part of the story is done, “oh yeah btw cloud-ai-queen is real hangry” is..meh.

If Zoraal being born at all is such a miracle, why not expand that thread. (Example, have papa enter the city 80 years ago, decide it’s too dangerous and put it into sleep mode, but also get himself a clone to hatch some years later). Why not have a Zidane moment for Zoraal where he realizes he’s just a clone and that’s why he goes mad.

Or for the trials to reach a result where “this tech exists (military might, future tech, etc) and you could use it, but to realize you don’t need it for your country to succeed”

Again, giving Zoraal a Vader moment where he can redeem himself at the end by taking out Sareel who has transitioned to metal.

I’m fine with the story, but it feels like a solid B- when there was a solid A+ just right there.

It doesn’t have to be a AAA movie, but sometimes you really just should lay out villains and goals in act 1. We are going to Mordor to throw the ring into the fire. We are going to hunt us a man eating shark. Even Indiana Jones 3 had the courtesy of introducing the villain in like…the first 20 minutes. Even if we didn’t realize he was, we knew generally what we were in this to do.

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Frankly I prefer it that way. A prefer a villain that doesn't have some "philosophy" behind him and is evil because of "human factors".

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can you find random dorks like that all around random quests, the only thing different is they don't have superpower plot.
also every bit of Zoraal Ja's personality and characteristic were ignored, erased, doxxed, dirtied, sacrileged in everyway possible. how is that "human factors"? did he get his brain swapped at some point?

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Originally Posted by HighlanderClone

Frankly I prefer it that way. A prefer a villain that doesn't have some "philosophy" behind him and is evil because of "human factors".

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If only the human factor would have been executed better. But it's utterly ridiculous that the weight of expectations turned him into Vergil 2.0, without going through similar hardships. He develops thoughts of murdering his siblings, his father and obliterating the country he swore to protect. All because of depression.

And it's so frustrating to watch him go down his chosen path, unwavering, refusing to acknowledge other options or to take lessons from the Right of Succession.

Zoraal Ja really need to pick up a hobby, like going fishing on the weekends. Things might have turned out diffrently if he simply chilled out a bit.