Major accessibility issue with Viper

I'm not sure how many people this speaks for, it might just be me, but I've always really struggled at connecting icons to meaning - I have a similar (though much smaller) issue with faces, but icons are the big one, especially in MMOs where they tend to look quite similar and all blend together a bit.

That doesn't normally stop me from playing, I've done some savage raids in XIV and equivalent things in a couple of other MMOs and not really had an issue because the position of the buttons on the screen (and on my keyboard) negates that problem.

Then we got Viper. This is the very first class in any game I've played that I legitimately cannot follow because, for some unknowable reason, its 8-part combo is reduced to 2 buttons that not only change but you're meant to weave between depending on what step you're at. Never once had an issue with freeform SAM in ShB, no issues with MNK or DRG, but I just can't follow this one, the buttons lose meaning within a couple of cycles, I don't understand how this was a conscious decision and got through testing. I understand that the option to combine it helps some people as it reduces button bloat, but I strongly feel that doing so at the cost of some people being able to use the class at all is not a good trade. Especially that, even accessibility issues aside, you can't lay things out on a hotbar and see what things do while planning out what order to click them in, where you can organise them in a progression as you learn the rotation. You need to either have the already ordered Abilities screen open and read them and try to remember when they happen (again, big issue for some people with that) or you need to click a button, read what the next step is, click it, read what that does, then try to formulate your memory of what you clicked into a rotation (which, yes, is many times worse).

We've been given the ability to split other combined buttons that have 2 abilities sharing a button - why isn't this the case for the massive 4 abilities that then need to be combined between each other in VPR?

So, please, give us the ability to split that horrendously massive stack up into separate buttons. With PvP, I've just avoided it entirely for this reason and it doesn't impact the main chunk of the game, but this is seriously affecting my (and I suspect a few other peoples') ability to play one of the new highlight classes in the game. That's not really acceptable given how there's an extremely easy fix that was implemented in this very update to the game, just not applied to (arguably) the main button stack that suffers from it. By all means, keep it combined by default, I'm sure that helps a number of people too. But forcing it to be combined when the icons are this similar is kind of baffling.

Viper is quite literally just press button that glows. The only time that ability icons might make a difference is is you care heavily about hitting the positional correctly. I struggled with the same issue until I just started following the ability that glows, it leads you through all the combos, even highlighting to use the buff abilities that have the lower time remaining so you refresh it instead of the one with more time remaining. Seriously, unless trying to min/max, do not over think it and just follow the glow.

That helps a lot, thanks! But there are also situations where both light up, and besides I do like to min/max as much as I can. I really enjoy that part of the game, and it'd be such a shame to be unable to play optimally on a well-designed class purely because of a terrible visual-design decision.

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Originally Posted by Cinedo

That helps a lot, thanks! But there are also situations where both light up, and besides I do like to min/max as much as I can. I really enjoy that part of the game, and it'd be such a shame to be unable to play optimally on a well-designed class purely because of a terrible visual-design decision.

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When both actions light up, it's because you do not have a buff that empowers one of them.

When both light up it just means either both are available or both have had the buff fall off. From my understanding prioritize the attack buff skill before the haste skill. What has helped a bit for min/maxing is also kind of splitting them between left and right to match the job gauge. However, that takes wading through the atrocious ability window to figure out. With the left/right dynamic set you can then just know which is what buff or what position by relating to left or right, rather than the ability icon. I struggle with ability icons on every class, so I've had to develop hotbar setups that rely on position rather icons for skill identification.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

The only time that ability icons might make a difference is is you care heavily about hitting the positional correctly.

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I also remember which is which from of their position on my bars and which keybind each use. I literally don't care about the icons or even the ability names. Heck, I never even remember the names.

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

I struggled with the same issue until I just started following the ability that glows, it leads you through all the combos, even highlighting to use the buff abilities that have the lower time remaining so you refresh it instead of the one with more time remaining.

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Slight correction, the second step highlight does not track your attack or speed buff, it instead leads you to the correct final step so that you can get the buffed final action without issue.

You can test this yourself, if you start with the attack buff, doing the full combo, then use the Dreadwinder combo, starting with the speed buff, then the attack buff, then, when you next get to the second step, you will find your attack button is highlighted, despite the speed buff having less on it's timer.

As for the actual combo enders themselves, they alternate between flank and rear positionals. Attack buff takes you to flank, speed takes you to rear. After a flank combo, you will use the same fang for your rear combo. Once you use a rear combo, you will always use the opposite fang.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

I also remember which is which from of their position on my bars and which keybind each use. I literally don't care about the icons or even the ability names. Heck, I never even remember the names.

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Yeah I think I worded the original message wrong, that's also what I do to keep track of the normal combo. Different slots on the hotbar = different effects, same for different keystrokes (ctrl + 2 = debuff enemy for example). The icons are meaningless to me. I think it might be possible to think of this as a fighting game combo (A+A+B+A) and memorise all the combos so I can play optimally, but it's still very easy for me to forget where I just was in the combo since I can't see my character very well in busy bossfights with mechanics I should be looking at, and (rather than meaningful positions) I have (what to me are) meaningless icons to tell me where I am, which doesn't help in the slightest.

But yeah, the main points here are:
- Inexcusably bad onboarding, where you have to pause and reach what abilities do OR have a poorly organised Abilities screen to read from. "Inexcusably" because they have the solution in the very update that game with this class.
- No way to keep track of where you are if you have any visual or attention problems, especially if you have both.
- Need to memorise every combo (which doesn't matter if you lose your place anyway) if you have the above issues, since the icons tell you nothing at that point.

Again, extremely easy fix that already exists so absolutely no reason not to use it.
And I really appreciate all the tips! I'll try to implement them and see if they help :)

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Originally Posted by Nothv13

The only time that ability icons might make a difference is is you care heavily about hitting the positional correctly.

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Also unless you're red-green color blind, the game helps you out here too. It's only the third move in the combos that have a positional requirement, and when they change for the third skill, the icons turn red if you need to do a rear positional and green if it's flank. This only applies to the base combos and not the other moves that have requirements, but it's still a visual queue I found that helped me get it right.

Though to the original point, I do kind of agree that it seems like there's no real reason to have the job have 8 skills in its base combo if they're going to just be condensed into 2 buttons. Feels a lot like the devs going for "look how flashy this is" while having very little input from the player to get you there.

I think you might need to learn how the Viper Sight gauge works.

Starting with the basics, looking at the 'inner' colour, nothing lit up means it is the first step of the combo, with the orange lit up, that is the second step of the comb, and also where your buffs are, once it is lit up with orange and blue, that is then your last step of the combo, or your finishers.

Onto the glow on the outside. No glow means it is the first step of the combo, so easy enough. Second step, if you have no final combo buffs up, then both sides will light up red. It doesn't matter which one you use here as no finishers are getting buffed. If one side lights up red, then that is the one you want to use to get to your buffed finisher.

On the last step, again, if both sides light up blue, then it doesn't matter what you do. However, if one side lights up blue, that is your buffed finisher and it should be the one you use. As for knowing which ones are flank and which ones are rear, there are a few ways to tell. First, all flank combos come off of the damage buff and all rear combos come off of the speed buff, so knowing which one you used helps in that regard. The next is looking at the colours. The combo ender buff will either be mostly green or mostly red. All green buffs are flank and all red buffs are rear, these also coincide with the actual hotbar icons as well. The last is just having to keep track. They will always alternate between flank and rear.

With all this knowledge, you could, in theory, perform the entire basic Viper rotation only looking at the Viper Sight gauge.

I could take it a step further and claim you could play the entire single target rotation by only being able to see 3 icons. Dreadwinder, Serpent's Ire and another just to see the GCD rolling. Everything you need to perform Viper is in that gauge.

Separating the buttons would make it a nightmare to play. The basic combo is actually extremely static like dragoon. The only real choice you get is the first 3 buttons you press. After that the whole rotation is 12 gcds before it loops back. Because of the way the finisher buffs works. It buffs in a sequence with alternating positionals, which is also why your second button alternates. So the sequence for your 3rd button is this. 2 , 1 , 1 , 2. Now add the alternating 2nd button, 2 - 2, 1 - 1, 2 - 1, 1 - 2. Now we add the 1st button and your full 12 gcd rotation looks like this. 2 - 2 - 2, 1 - 1 - 1, 1 - 2 - 1, 1 - 1 -2.

for me viper basically dancer but faster, melee, and more organized, once you play long enough you can tell which button will be highlighted unlike dancer which is RNG

my difficulty in viper now is still not used with the positional attack (flank and rear) because the class animation blink him left and right sometimes it mess up my position

i just ignored it throughout casual play since its not really a biggy, should be getting used to it after a while in the future

Soooo, am I losing DPS by alternating starters and then just going where the glowy boarder guides?
I gathered that all the red finishers are rear positionals, while all the green ones are flank.

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Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

Soooo, am I losing DPS by alternating starters

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You don't need to refresh the damage debuff that often and the starter that doesn't do this deals more damage.

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Originally Posted by Big-Isaac

Soooo, am I losing DPS by alternating starters and then just going where the glowy boarder guides?
I gathered that all the red finishers are rear positionals, while all the green ones are flank.

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Yep reds are rear, green is flank. I personally prefer using Dreadwinder and Swiftskin's Coil and Hunter's Coil to jumpstart the buffs and debuffs. As once you have swiftskin and hunter buffs up, they are easy to keep up when doing your basic combos.

When doing your basic combos, your 1-2-3, I would recommend only using Steel Fang if your in a position where your hunter and swiftskin buffs and the enemy's noxious gnash debuff are at fairly long timers. As Steel Fang's only benefit is its 200 potency vs Dread Fang's 140, that it is just raw damage and no other benefit. Dread Fang is your basic method of refreshing the enemy's damage taken debuff.

Viper is fine, it hasn't even been a week and there's nothing on the job that a little commitment and time on your end wont solve. And if it can't be solved, that's fine too, not every job needs to be for everyone.

Its only been a week. I don't think there is accessibility issues (barring perhaps colorblindness, but there are ways around that). I think some people just haven't sat down and taken the time. I don't claim ninja has accessibility issues just because I don't understand it. I know I haven't taken the time to learn it.
It's as simple as following the glowing lines. Honestly in base content, even if you aren't doing it optimally, you're fine. Most people aren't doing their jobs optimally in base content.

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Originally Posted by Cinedo

But yeah, the main points here are:
- Inexcusably bad onboarding, where you have to pause and reach what abilities do OR have a poorly organised Abilities screen to read from. "Inexcusably" because they have the solution in the very update that game with this class.
- No way to keep track of where you are if you have any visual or attention problems, especially if you have both.
- Need to memorise every combo (which doesn't matter if you lose your place anyway) if you have the above issues, since the icons tell you nothing at that point.

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I'm sorry brother but not every job is for everyone. If you don't like it, don't play it. Same as I, that don't play BLM or MNK, nor any healers or tanks. Pick what you like instead of changing what you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by Cinedo

- No way to keep track of where you are if you have any visual or attention problems, especially if you have both.
- Need to memorise every combo (which doesn't matter if you lose your place anyway) if you have the above issues, since the icons tell you nothing at that point.

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You haven't played long enough to make this judgment (no one have). These problems (which, spoiler alert, everyone have at first) will disappear as you get used to play and muscle memory kicks in. Surely during your entire life you have noticed that this is how new skills that you learn become easy over time?

"I can't play the job proficiently after a couple days THIS IS A MAJOR ACCESSIBILITY ISSUE". The job is getting ruined because SE is stupid enough to listen to this kind of drivel. Good job. Thanks.

Not being able to read your tooltips is NOT an accessibility issue-- an accessibility issue would be, for example, that they're using red and green to mark which buttons are the positionals and that's the most common form of colorblindness. Hope that helps!

I would love the option to just split the commands into individual buttons simply for learning purposes. They just introduced a new option that lets you choose to upgrade a skill or not. Let’s use that so that people who like just having the class as 4 buttons up to level 60 can enjoy it. But for those of us who need more help. Let us split the skills into separate buttons so we can learn. It does not have to take anything away from the class to have the option to split the buttons up.