Dark Knight loosing 1200 MP from the Blood weapon nerf feels horrible.

For those who dont know, during the merger of Delirium and Bloodweapon SE decided to chop off 2 stacks of Bloodweapon for the sake of having it line up with Delirium's 3, no adjustments were made to anything else to offset the lost MP, and I'm finding this has had a lot of effects on the job as a whole.

Dark Knight's entire thing is spending MP in chunks of 3000, loosing 1200 mp and dropping the MP regen on this from 3600 to 2400 effects a lot of things, mostly for the worse.

--I'm finding that TBN is significantly more punishing and harder to get up post burst window making DRK significantly more frail for much longer after a burst

--TBN is designed to be spammed, its cooldown is 15s compared to the other 25s tools for a reason and utilizing it to its max is how DRK kept up in endwalker, this is harder to do now as with current numbers Using TBN more than 3 times during a 2m window is going to loose mp into a burst.

--Between the loss of 2 plunges and this reduced MP, theres just less to do on the job between bursts

This change doesn't even change the ammount of edges you need to bring into a burst window btw, so if the goal was lowering apm for the sake of it, it failed. it just gives you less to do outside of it and makes the job frailer post burst window, which isn't a great thing considering this is a tank.


Potential solutions:
-Return Bloodweapon to 5 stacks
-Increase Bloodweapon regen to 1000 instead of 600

It does feel awful, yeah. The result is just making everything outside of the 2minute burst even slower than it was before and it just doesn't feel good.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Potential solutions:
-Return Bloodweapon to 5 stacks
-Increase Bloodweapon regen to 1000 instead of 600

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Either one of those would work, or a wild card solution that occured to me after playing PCT and VPR - make Delirium 40 second CD...though admittedly that might necessitate potency reduction on bloodspiller/delirium combo as well.

If they did return 5 stacks to Blood Weapon, Living Shadow might need its blood cost bad (not that that would be a bad thing), even if an extra bloodspiller over the course of 2 minutes wouldn't break anything. 1000MP per stack is probably the most expedient solution.

You do realize that bw turn to delirium when the latter is unlock right?

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Originally Posted by The_User

You do realize that bw turn to delirium when the latter is unlock right?

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The effect itself is still called Blood Weapon.
https://i.imgur.com/2SCHNuq.png

And would you make bw 40s or have the recast lowered after it turn to delirium?

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Originally Posted by The_User

And would you make bw 40s or have the recast lowered after it turn to delirium?

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Either could work, but preferably make it lower at Blood Weapon already because syncing down is boring enough already. But having it just happen at Delirium would be fine.

And how many potency bloodspiller/quietus/scarlet combo need to be reduced?

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Originally Posted by The_User

And how many potency bloodspiller/quietus/scarlet combo need to be reduced?

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I could try to napkin math it out to current tuning, but I'm not very good at math...I did anyway, and it's adding 50 blood cost back to Living Shadow, 50 potency from each bloodspiller/delirium combo hit, plus 10 potency from each 1-2-3 combo hit with a negligible amount left over...but it's probably wrong.
I'm sure someone actually good at math, like the devs would be able to figure it out ^^;

That said, I feel I should emphasize this is just a personal thought experiment and there is a distinct possibility I overlooked something and 1000 MP for each stack of Blood Weapon is the most expedient solution to make it feel okay-ish to play by 7.05, i.e. first savage tier.

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Originally Posted by The_User

And how many potency bloodspiller/quietus/scarlet combo need to be reduced?

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I believe the math guys from the developers can figure this out in which way they want to move it with potencies.

I definitely agree though, the change in MP not being adjusted to accomodate the lowered Bloodweapon stacks (600 -> 1000) feels bad to play with. Not because of any power issues, but because it feels awful on a gamefeel level.

Gonna be blunt here, I dont give a shit about damage potencies. Make them what they need to be to maintain balance, but I want the MP back.

Besides the lower mana gain from Blood weapon stacks, people are also not taking into account that you'll get mana from your 123 less often. More of Drk's GCD's are going to Bloodspillers because Living shadow now costs no gauge, and Drk got a new GCD on top. I honestly don't think much thought was put into the Drk changes at all. The monotony of Drk's 123 spam post burst isn't being mixed up with plunges and blood weapons anymore. All it got was a forgettable GCD on a 2 minute cooldown that isn't even that high in potency. I suspect they might have a rework in the works (Again)
The job looks veeeery barebones and incomplete compared to the other tanks. They didn't even bother to lower cooldowns to make it more active outside of the burst.

Guys why are you wasting your time with down-graded warrior job?
Changes to this job isn't interesting not even before

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Besides the lower mana gain from Blood weapon stacks, people are also not taking into account that you'll get mana from your 123 less often. More of Drk's GCD's are going to Bloodspillers because Living shadow now costs no gauge, and Drk got a new GCD on top. I honestly don't think much thought was put into the Drk changes at all. The monotony of Drk's 123 spam post burst isn't being mixed up with plunges and blood weapons anymore. All it got was a forgettable GCD on a 2 minute cooldown that isn't even that high in potency. I suspect they might have a rework in the works (Again)
The job looks veeeery barebones and incomplete compared to the other tanks. They didn't even bother to lower cooldowns to make it more active outside of the burst.

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Eh, I did some napkin math around that and taking into account -40 Blood in 2min (Bloodweapon stacks 5 -> 3) and +50 from not having Living Shadow cost blood, leading to a net +10/2min, times five for 50 gauge you only actually gain one Bloodspiller in like 10min. The 5 Disesteem casts in 10min wont rock the boat to the same level either - that is about two combos of resources less, or -1200 MP in Disesteem + bonus Bloodspiller.

The real impact will without a doubt remain the reduction in Bloodweapon stacks per minute, leading to a whopping -12000 MP over the course of 10min, discounting the 10min-timed cooldown window. Beyond that, yeah... the downtime for DRK has absolutely been hurting. Where other tanks have received tools that at least come from using their kit (Inner Release -> 3x Fell Cleave -> Primal Wrath; Blade of Valor -> Honor ogcd, Lionheart combo from Bloodfest), we have received a line gcd every 2min. And unlike Shadowbringer which is 1200 potency in two OGCD casts, Disesteem replaces a GCD cast and grants no resources - the actual gain is miniscule and the big value really just comes if you throw it into a huge buff window.

We "REALLY" got the short end of the stick here.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Guys why are you wasting your time with down-graded warrior job?
Changes to this job isn't interesting not even before

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Because we care and will continue giving feedback for the job we cared about. Call me Emet-Selch if you will, because I refuse to let go of what we once had.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Eh, I did some napkin math around that and taking into account -40 Blood in 2min (Bloodweapon stacks 5 -> 3) and +50 from not having Living Shadow cost blood, leading to a net +10/2min, times five for 50 gauge you only actually gain one Bloodspiller in like 10min. The 5 Disesteem casts in 10min wont rock the boat to the same level either - that is about two combos of resources less, or -1200 MP in Disesteem + bonus Bloodspiller.

The real impact will without a doubt remain the reduction in Bloodweapon stacks per minute, leading to a whopping -12000 MP over the course of 10min, discounting the 10min-timed cooldown window. Beyond that, yeah... the downtime for DRK has absolutely been hurting. Where other tanks have received tools that at least come from using their kit (Inner Release -> 3x Fell Cleave -> Primal Wrath; Blade of Valor -> Honor ogcd, Lionheart combo from Bloodfest), we have received a line gcd every 2min. And unlike Shadowbringer which is 1200 potency in two OGCD casts, Disesteem replaces a GCD cast and grants no resources - the actual gain is miniscule and the big value really just comes if you throw it into a huge buff window.

We "REALLY" got the short end of the stick here.



Because we care and will continue giving feedback for the job we cared about. Call me Emet-Selch if you will, because I refuse to let go of what we once had.

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Ahh i didn't account for the blood gauge gain also being nerfed on blood weapon.
But yeah, after all the changes in DT i don't think i'll be tanking this expansion. Drk got castrated, and lost waaaay more than it gained.
It is the most incomplete job of them all at this point, and i seriously suspect they've got a rework planned.
Because if not, well, the alternative means that they truly do not care *at all* about the job's design. So yeah, let's just hope these changes just serve to be a placeholder for what they got planned.

I would hope for a rework if the current direction of drk wasn’t so at odds with what people who play it like about the job. I mean look at the paladin rework.
I don’t expect tbn to survive - even the fast paced burst has already been eroded. Also without dark arts and blood weapon, the spell blade/rune knight flavouring is very much reduced. I strongly disagree with the existence of esteem, but equally strongly suspect it will be the focal mechanic in a reworked drk. At the same time it has so clearly been neglected since 5.0 that it’s difficult to believe anyone on the design team cares for or enjoys it.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Eh, I did some napkin math around that and taking into account -40 Blood in 2min (Bloodweapon stacks 5 -> 3) and +50 from not having Living Shadow cost blood, leading to a net +10/2min, times five for 50 gauge you only actually gain one Bloodspiller in like 10min. The 5 Disesteem casts in 10min wont rock the boat to the same level either - that is about two combos of resources less, or -1200 MP in Disesteem + bonus Bloodspiller.

The real impact will without a doubt remain the reduction in Bloodweapon stacks per minute, leading to a whopping -12000 MP over the course of 10min, discounting the 10min-timed cooldown window. Beyond that, yeah... the downtime for DRK has absolutely been hurting. Where other tanks have received tools that at least come from using their kit (Inner Release -> 3x Fell Cleave -> Primal Wrath; Blade of Valor -> Honor ogcd, Lionheart combo from Bloodfest), we have received a line gcd every 2min. And unlike Shadowbringer which is 1200 potency in two OGCD casts, Disesteem replaces a GCD cast and grants no resources - the actual gain is miniscule and the big value really just comes if you throw it into a huge buff window.

We "REALLY" got the short end of the stick here.



Because we care and will continue giving feedback for the job we cared about. Call me Emet-Selch if you will, because I refuse to let go of what we once had.

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Playing the class shows to developers that you are happy with it.. just stop play it they will see that it is a big deal

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Playing the class shows to developers that you are happy with it.. just stop play it they will see that it is a big deal

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...and not playing it will make them think the job is too difficult and has to be neutered further. Healers, Summoner and Machinist are perfect testament to that. That would be a catch 22, wouldn't it?

I will continue supporting Dark Knight as a job with feedback how I feel about it and continue playing it to express my desire for playing Dark Knight and not the next flavour of the expansion job. Feel free to do as you like, however.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...and not playing it will make them think the job is too difficult and has to be neutered further. Healers, Summoner and Machinist are perfect testament to that. That would be a catch 22, wouldn't it?

I will continue supporting Dark Knight as a job with feedback how I feel about it and continue playing it to express my desire for playing Dark Knight and not the next flavour of the expansion job. Feel free to do as you like, however.

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Do what you enjoy that what it is matter

Right now delirium is the most inferior among tank abilities. It don't give you a big damage like inner release. It don't give you 3 ogcds to weave like continuation. It don't give you mobility and reach like requiescat. It only give you bloodspillers and maybe one more eos and you want to reduce the weak weaponskill even further? Torcleaver while having a screen shaking effect,it lack a potency to make it a real finisher. Reduce the potency even more and it just going to be your normal filler combo. Quietus only deal 50 potency more than unleash I wonder is normal quietus going to be worth using over unleash+stalwart soul if it got potency reduced. But i suppose as long as there are more edge to spam and a once every 2 mins glorified dot to behold the shb enjoyer would be happy.

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Playing the class shows to developers that you are happy with it.. just stop play it they will see that it is a big deal

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We don't do the drk strike. We only know how to land syphon strike.

Honestly they should just make the stacks of BW into 5, Del can stay at 3 as they're separate buffs anyway.

I like the merge personally, but you do sort of feel the change from 5 to 3.

I agree that the MP nerf feels terrible. I have a feeling that they cut two stacks off Blood Weapon to account for the +40 blood we don't need anymore for Esteem and then just...forgot we need the +1200 MP, too. Changing Blood Weapon to provide 1000 MP a hit will fix that.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

...and not playing it will make them think the job is too difficult and has to be neutered further. Healers, Summoner and Machinist are perfect testament to that. That would be a catch 22, wouldn't it?

I will continue supporting Dark Knight as a job with feedback how I feel about it and continue playing it to express my desire for playing Dark Knight and not the next flavour of the expansion job. Feel free to do as you like, however.

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It's legit the easiest tank now, wdym?
They somehow managed to make Drk easier than War in DT.

Personally I’d rather bloodspiller and quietus get a native hp and mp recovery effect like combining syphon stike and souleater into one, and using delirium doubles the hp/mp gained or something. It would make it so bloodspiller actually feels like a powerful skill that adds to your rotation and doesn’t feel like it’s taking away what you’d be getting doing your 123.

It would also increase DRKs self sustain which is an area it’s always been lacking.

I agree, I tried leveling Dark Knight again and felt like I was barely pressing anything in between bursts. Very sad.

Yeah the job just feels terrible to play now. Sad.

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Originally Posted by Grimhilda

Yeah the job just feels terrible to play now. Sad.

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I'm sure it will be very popular thanks to the ''Qol'' changes that further hollowed out the job.
People were praising the changes but nobody is playing the job. It's almost like removing any sort of gameplay friction makes jobs boring.