Suggestion:Enemy Territory - a concept desire for future areas.

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Zozo.

A rain-trodden city filled with Thieves and Liars.

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Archadia, seat of the Archadian empire.

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Vector, home of the Magitek Empire.

Do you know what these three places have in common? They are enemy territory, hostile to the player, where going to the wrong place or taking to the wrong people might wind you up in a fight you did not expect.

But also, they were inside windows to aspects of the game's world that were not of the player's typical 'good guy' perspective. You saw what every day life was like for the citizens of the enemy nation. You slummed it out with thieves looking for the one person who would tell the truth. You climbed your way up the citizenry in order to infiltrate the enemy stronghold.

One thing I believe FFXI lacked in it's rich and diverse areas was a true enemy nation you could relate to. Too often the strongholds of the enemies looked like foreign dungeons with no relate-able living spaces and very few passive citizens. They were beastmen - and not of any of the 'enlightened' races.

There was something rich in the experience of being in the areas like Zozo, and Vector. That feeling of risk of exposure, the near-tangible tension in the air as you tried to complete your quest, or even just explore what it was like there.

FFXIV provides a unique opportunity to resurrect this great area concept rich with possible quests. Perhaps we can explore the neighboring country of Al Mhingo under Imperial Occupation and assist the resistance movement, witnessing first hand the way Garleans try to convert it's territories.

Maybe we can go straight to the Garlean capital and have a chance meeting with the Emperor himself, before fleeing through their back factorys in an attempt to escape their clutches.

These are type of areas ripe with memorable adventure and story that we could experience first hand, instead of reading in an article. I hope Yoshida and crew consider this for possible expansions to the 2.0 version of FFXIV if they're not already there.

To turn this suggestion into a topic of discussion for the community, what sort of enemy territories would you like to experience? What kind of adventures in said territories would you be excited? How open should these areas be to exploration, and what sort of systems could we make to have these places actually feel hostile without making them 'instanced' only?

Thanks for your time!

You know... I really agree with a lot of this. In FFXI I kind of hoped when Mamook came out it would be an enemy city with shops you could visit, and a lot of beastman NPCs, but if you went to the wrong area, there would be a lot of hostiles. I think there should be an enemy city where portions are completely safe, and others are swarming with trouble.

I think for XI it's mostly we didn't get to explore the actual homelands, i.e the Northern lands. Where beastmen existed was merely bases and migration patterns for example Davoi was a claimed Elvaan Settlement and Castle Oztroja was a strategic point to assault Windurst.

Given that excluding Garleans, the other existing tribes have some form of society but they're still pretty much savage beasts which set up hubs rather than full blown cities so I doubt we'd ever see something like this unless it was in the form of a dungeon. We also have to remember that given SE's attention to detail, things like Beadeaux was a swampland they (Quadavs) called home so it wouldn't resemble human cities for example. In XIV we also have human factions who are basically rogues, you wouldn't really see a city dedicated to them like in FFVI versus small camp type areas.

I think it worked better in offline games than it does in online games because online you have a lot more to worry about, i.e economy so everything has to be dealt with delicately.

yeah I hope we get to see more large cities or nations other than Garlean, Ishgard and beastmen tribes.

edit: like a neutral city state that owes no ties to any country

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Originally Posted by Elexia

I think it worked better in offline games than it does in online games because online you have a lot more to worry about, i.e economy so everything has to be dealt with delicately.

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Even so, I do believe that it is a trope too often overlooked in MMOs, and should be revisited upon. SWTOR almost accomplished this by creating a recognizable living area even in hostile territory. It probably could be done very well here in FFXIV where the zones can be easily segmented and controlled.

This is an excellent topic and the OP does it great justice by his well written point. This kind of adventure in the "other sides" towns and areas is missing in alot of games. I think the lack of such areas and quests within them ignores a great way to expose player to exactly what it is they are fighting against besides just a title, "The Empire".

Also because of our ( as members of 3 companies) relative lack of power in the face of the Garlean empire such resistance such quests, missions, "dungeons" etc would be very fitting for chapter 2.0 of our story.

Not to mention some very fun sneaking, spying and thrilling possibilities inherent in being in your enemies back yard, as the op indicated. Perhaps when going to Al Mhingo you have to duck and dodge patrols untill you complete a quest/dungeon to get official papers, which will allow you to move around more freely. Thus providing the same zone two different types of exploration.

I like all of your ideas OP for Al MIhngo and the Empire itself. I'd also enjoy Beastman Villages. Perhaps Hostile untill/if they became allied. Then you could visit them and communicate with them as an ally. Giving the same area/zone (or 2 seperate instances of the same zone, depending on how SE would have to program it) 2 very different situations and stories.

Besides the great opportunity for new Lore, and interesting quest/dungeons mechanics apart from Kill everything. It can also help stretch some development time by instead of always having to create a new zone for something, you could use the same zone with new differences.

WIth my Al Mhingo example. By placing patrols to dodge, and stationary guards in placesyou want to save till later. you basicly use the same zone, but apon completeing the quest, more of the zone opens. This gives players new areas to explorewith time instead of a whole zone people check out at once, then be line to the places they need later because theres no barries except cliffs and walls.

I really agree that Far too many areas in MMOs are Your town, their town and all free wilderness. I'd like to see 1/3rd of our game world belong to the "other guys" and for that to mean more then you see an NPC or two. I want to Invade, dodge their patrols, destroy their supply lines and harass their troops in a MMO style Final Fantasy game.

I want to fight the war the story tells me i'm fighting from as many different angles as i can. And the one missing most is like the OP bought up, the one at their doorstep.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

One thing I believe FFXI lacked in it's rich and diverse areas was a true enemy nation you could relate to. Too often the strongholds of the enemies looked like foreign dungeons with no relate-able living spaces and very few passive citizens. They were beastmen - and not of any of the 'enlightened' races.

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This probably would have been resolved if the beastman races had been playable from the start, as they really are the closest thing you have to a constant and true antagonist.

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There was something rich in the experience of being in the areas like Zozo, and Vector. That feeling of risk of exposure, the near-tangible tension in the air as you tried to complete your quest, or even just explore what it was like there.

FFXIV provides a unique opportunity to resurrect this great area concept rich with possible quests. Perhaps we can explore the neighboring country of Al Mhingo under Imperial Occupation and assist the resistance movement, witnessing first hand the way Garleans try to convert it's territories.

Maybe we can go straight to the Garlean capital and have a chance meeting with the Emperor himself, before fleeing through their back factorys in an attempt to escape their clutches.

These are type of areas ripe with memorable adventure and story that we could experience first hand, instead of reading in an article. I hope Yoshida and crew consider this for possible expansions to the 2.0 version of FFXIV if they're not already there.

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The main concern with something like this is the placement, and how much of the content would be involved. It works in single player RPGs because they're temporary places you can access due to the story. You went into Zozo to find Tina/Terra and later in order to get into Mt. Zozo to recruit Cyan. You went into Vector to deal with the magitech research facility and as part of the events that lead to the end of the world (of balance). Zozo in particular was incidental in the greater scheme of things. Vector was involved when the game hit the part of the story it was relevant to and then vanished.

IMO, for this to work in an MMO you'd need to do one of two things. You either have it as part of a mission storyline where you're effectively locked in that zone up to a certain point (the way Vashj'ir was done), or you make it part of a bigger storyline where you're tasked with infiltrating enemy ranks and completing quest objectives up to a certain point where you do something big to sabotage the enemy operations and go back to normal (like it was done in Mt. Hyjal).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

IMO, for this to work in an MMO you'd need to do one of two things. You either have it as part of a mission storyline where you're effectively locked in that zone up to a certain point (the way Vashj'ir was done), or you make it part of a bigger storyline where you're tasked with infiltrating enemy ranks and completing quest objectives up to a certain point where you do something big to sabotage the enemy operations and go back to normal (like it was done in Mt. Hyjal).

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A mission storyline, whether put in place by exact quests or by simply having the NPCs and certain plot locations necessary to progress several different ones, is needed, but it doesn't need to be as urgent as an actual "mission". General plot connectablity is just as viable, and does not limit the city's use to just a small set of quest lines. Phasing it the zones into oblivion as with Cataclysm's Vash'jr and Mt. Hyjal, inversely, tends to leave only a shoddy mess of a half-assed plot progression. If something showing the effects of player actions is implemented, it would probably do best to show not only your actions, but most in general -- such as a town under attacks from rebels via stealth and explosives. And you're in the thick of it, without clear belief in either side's doings.

WoW examples aside, I agree that being locked into places such as to create the feeling of really being lost in a jungle or unable to escape from a city can be great. However, there's a lot that can still be done with less urgency in these zones. NPC relationships, discoveries, and more gradual plot developments will each carry a unique spin just from being there, as long as they are part of a larger plot. That plot does not need to show itself as obviously as through actual sabotage.

OP idea has merit~

There are some pitfalls, but I think the devs could work through it. Perhaps you are given a limited time there before you get caught and are kicked out..

It would be awesome content for DoH, where you have to buy 'falsified documents' (~50k gil) into the city and buy rare goods, but you could lose your 'falsified documents' if you are caught by NPC sentries or suspicious vendors there.

DoL could have a similar experience with special harvesting areas outside enemy cities and patrolling NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A mission storyline, whether put in place by exact quests or by simply having the NPCs and certain plot locations necessary to progress several different ones, is needed, but it doesn't need to be as urgent as an actual "mission". General plot connectablity is just as viable, and does not limit the city's use to just a small set of quest lines.

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Storyline does have to explain why this particular town is not coming after you when the rest of the empire is. This is why "enemy side" parts in a game's story are brief and temporary, and you usually never see that element again after it is no longer relevant to what you're doing in-game.

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Phasing it the zones into oblivion as with Cataclysm's Vash'jr and Mt. Hyjal, inversely, tends to leave only a shoddy mess of a half-assed plot progression.

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While I'm not one to turn to phasing as the first option in telling a story, the convoluted mess seen in WoW was due to shoddy writing. The phasing itself had little to do with said mess.

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WoW examples aside, I agree that being locked into places such as to create the feeling of really being lost in a jungle or unable to escape from a city can be great. However, there's a lot that can still be done with less urgency in these zones.

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I don't think you can really have an enemy city that is friendly to you "just because". There's a reason you usually have either purposeful infiltration, anmesia, and general displacement as devices used to explain why these people are not killing you on the spot.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Storyline does have to explain why this particular town is not coming after you when the rest of the empire is. This is why "enemy side" parts in a game's story are brief and temporary, and you usually never see that element again after it is no longer relevant to what you're doing in-game.

While I'm not one to turn to phasing as the first option in telling a story, the convoluted mess seen in WoW was due to shoddy writing. The phasing itself had little to do with said mess.

I don't think you can really have an enemy city that is friendly to you "just because". There's a reason you usually have either purposeful infiltration, anmesia, and general displacement as devices used to explain why these people are not killing you on the spot.

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I can agree with much of your post.

Firstly Wow phasing was often over used it hub type areas. Which made it even more difficult.

Really the details of any location and why, how and how long your there depends on the story writing. Especially in a fantasy setting much of the "everyday" issues can be worked around by something magical and mystical to explain some story holes.

Example: A villager killed without reason by "enemy". The family who wants revenge. The Mystic who grans magic apon a mask to impersonate the man. The family of said man whom takes you in and helps you find the criminals etc"

Short point. without embelishing to the why of the mystic or the who of the enemy. by injecting the fantasy "magic" card you can produce a more solid story because of it.

Personally i think Phasing would be better used on the NPC level then area. Then you and your friends can be in the same area yet the NPCs for each of you can potentially be different or in different states. The issues of your friends disappearing is resolved.

I think if we put faith in the writes in tandum with the developers i belive they could indeed find a way to include persistant enemy areas that give you a form of, or gradual access. And even if that form of access is at some point removed. then they can provide a way to obtain something different