Viper skill page is a complete mess.

Viper skill page is a complete mess when most skills cannot be assigned to a hotbar and they are all listed bottom of the action list from lowes level to highest level while using other display mode that shows combo skills more clearly, which means i have to re-reading all skills tooltips on skill page constantly.

To make viper action page more sense, the skills that can be assigned to a hotbar should have some kind of button that shows list of combos that can be used with the skill that can be assigned to a hotbar.

I know i can look skills tooltips while attacking striking dummy but i don't want use both controller and mouse simultaneously when with controller i can't see skill tooltips when using cross-hotbar.
And yes i play FFXIV with controller on PC.

While I highly appreciate their initiative to introduce PvP-combos in PvE, they have taken it way too far for Vipers. 8 skills, including interconnected ones, are used by two buttons. It's been two hours now, and I'm still trying to figure out all the Viper skills up to lv30, wherein the most difficulty is coming from lv30 4 new skills.

Sorry, but I think I need a break.

TBH, it's really not necessary to even pay attention to the skill page. I just used the skill names to figure how to set up my crossbars:

1. Skills ending with "Fangs" are your single target combo buttons.
2. Skills ending with "Maw" are your AOE combo buttons.
3. Serpent's Tail is your oGCD button after combo finishers.
4. The "Dread" skills are your Darth Maul combo starters (Dreadwinder single target; Pit of Dread AOE).
5. Twinfang and Twinblood are your oGCDs in between your Dread 3-part combos.
6. Uncoiled Fury, Serpent's Ire, and Reawaken are self-explanatory.
7. Writing Snap is your "I screwed up and have to peel away from the boss" ranged failure attack, never to be used.

That's really all you need to know in terms of setting up your bars initially. You may want to adjust for comfort once you unlock Reawaken.

If you haven't already, I recommend finishing the initial viper quests. There is an instanced fight where the NPC explains each part and that's when I realized how simple the job is. Once I realized how much "follow the glowing button" was true, I went back to PCT.

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Originally Posted by Kranel_San

While I highly appreciate their initiative to introduce PvP-combos in PvE, they have taken it way too far for Vipers. 8 skills, including interconnected ones, are used by two buttons. It's been two hours now, and I'm still trying to figure out all the Viper skills up to lv30, wherein the most difficulty is coming from lv30 4 new skills.

Sorry, but I think I need a break.

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Have you tried hitting a striking dummy? When you see how things fit together, it should make it easier to see what is going on, rather than relying on pure text.

It's almost like all the people who asked for condensed buttons had no clue what they were actually asking for, if they thought it was going to make a typical PvE rotation more intuitive to play. All it does here is make a simple rotation seem more complicated than it is.

Viper hotbars have so much empty space too, what's that point in not letting you dedicate slots?

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

TBH, it's really not necessary to even pay attention to the skill page. I just used the skill names to figure how to set up my crossbars:

1. Skills ending with "Fangs" are your single target combo buttons.
2. Skills ending with "Maw" are your AOE combo buttons.
3. Serpent's Tail is your oGCD button after combo finishers.
4. The "Dread skills are your Darth Maul combo starters (Dread Maw single target; Pit of Dread AOE).
5. Twinfang and Twinblood are your oGCDs in between your Dread 3-part combos.
6. Uncoiled Fury, Serpent's Ire, and Reawaken are self-explanatory.
7. Writing Snap is your "I screwed up and have to peel away from the boss" ranged failure attack, never to be used.

That's really all you need to know in terms of setting up your bars initially. You may want to adjust for comfort once you unlock Reawaken.

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...would you mind sharing your hotbar set up for this? I am struggeliiiing x'D

My 93 Viper just did the first dawntrail dungeon on Viper and itll take some getting used to but holy hell im spending more time looking at my hotbar then the fight

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Originally Posted by IzVale

...would you mind sharing your hotbar set up for this? I am struggeliiiing x'D

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I play on controller on PS5 (crossbars). If that's what you mean, I don't mind sharing once I get home.

In my very little bit of playing this morning I have learned that I just need to press the highlighted skill and that green combo ender is flank and red is rear. I don't even try to understand what is going on because it feels like it is all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Amenara

In my very little bit of playing this morning I have learned that I just need to press the highlighted skill and that green combo ender is flank and red is rear. I don't even try to understand what is going on because it feels like it is all over the place.

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*struggles in colorblind*

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Originally Posted by LynxDubh

*struggles in colorblind*

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I was really wondering how VPR would feel for people who are colorblind. On other jobs, I have a pattern to where I put flank vs rear buttons. We can't do that with VPR, so the color is the only quick way for me to know.

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Originally Posted by tangentcat

I was really wondering how VPR would feel for people who are colorblind. On other jobs, I have a pattern to where I put flank vs rear buttons. We can't do that with VPR, so the color is the only quick way for me to know.

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MrHappy said he memorized what one of the flank/rear icons looked like and just hit the flashing one of the flank/rear pair, since they always show up together.

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Originally Posted by tangentcat

I was really wondering how VPR would feel for people who are colorblind. On other jobs, I have a pattern to where I put flank vs rear buttons. We can't do that with VPR, so the color is the only quick way for me to know.

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Same. I've always kept the same placement for flank and rear attacks on my hotbar jjst for consistency. Surprise! It doesn't work that way for Viper. I'm just using the green/red recognition and I can't imagine trying to specifically watch the icons otherwise lol.

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Originally Posted by ShaolinMike

TBH, it's really not necessary to even pay attention to the skill page. I just used the skill names to figure how to set up my crossbars:

1. Skills ending with "Fangs" are your single target combo buttons.
2. Skills ending with "Maw" are your AOE combo buttons.
3. Serpent's Tail is your oGCD button after combo finishers.
4. The "Dread" skills are your Darth Maul combo starters (Dreadwinder single target; Pit of Dread AOE).
5. Twinfang and Twinblood are your oGCDs in between your Dread 3-part combos.
6. Uncoiled Fury, Serpent's Ire, and Reawaken are self-explanatory.
7. Writing Snap is your "I screwed up and have to peel away from the boss" ranged failure attack, never to be used.

That's really all you need to know in terms of setting up your bars initially. You may want to adjust for comfort once you unlock Reawaken.

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Ya the job looks complicated from first impression but it is actually one of the most simple Melee jobs in my opinion.

Viper basically only has to focus on using a 1234 Combo with there being 2 types for both single target and AoE.

Normal Combo always starts with two skills on Combo 1 which is either a raw damage attack or a Debuff attack that makes the enemy take +10% more damage.

Then skill 2 is just use any of the two Combo 2 skills. The order does not matter since the one you did not pick will be your next Combo 2 skill.

Skill 3 is the one players need to pay attention on because the color of Combo 3 skill determines their position for flank or rear. Red skills are Rear attack skills and Green skills are Flank attack skills.

Then end the combo with the Finisher skill being the skill that is Serpent's Tail.

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Burst skill is the same but the position attack is on Combo 2 skill

Just use the starting Combo 1 skill then use one of the two Combo 2 skills being the Flank or Rear attack skill.

Depending on which Combo 2 skill you use for Burst combo determines which skill will be used first between Twinfang and Twinblood. Then just use the other Combo 2 skill you did not use to finish off the Burst combo chain.

After that it is just waiting until the Burst skill combo cooldown is over by using Normal combo then use Burst Combo again.

They were clearly going the Samurai route with one combo giving you haste and the other giving you a damage buff. Thing is the buttons light up arbitrarily and your combo will always end correctly as long as you press one of the two glowing buttons. That's not intuitive at all.

There is oversimplification and button bloat. Viper is leaning towards the former. Having two single target buttons and two aoe buttons that went through their 1-2-3 and ending with Death Rattle/Last Lash would have been the best way to go.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's almost like all the people who asked for condensed buttons had no clue what they were actually asking for, if they thought it was going to make a typical PvE rotation more intuitive to play. All it does here is make a simple rotation seem more complicated than it is.

Viper hotbars have so much empty space too, what's that point in not letting you dedicate slots?

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Bad take. All the classes people are asking for them to condense have a simple 1, 2, 3, (or 4) combo and they want that condensed. Viper has a lot of crossover in the combos which ends up making it more like mnk, which are exceptions to the rule and do not translate smoothly into a condensed rotation.

It's dummy simple but explained absolutely horribly and the tooltips are deeply unhelpful.

1st hit, no glow in gauge, do you want debuff yes/no,

2nd hit, red glow in gauge, hit side that's glowing or if both glow just hit one,

3rd hit, blue glow in gauge, hit side that's glowing or if both glow they're literally identical, positional based on choice in step 2 (right -> rear, left -> flank) and hit Serpent's Tail.

Meanwhile a real tooltip to explain this basic interaction:

Delivers an attack with a potency of 300.
360 when executed from a target's rear.
Potencies are increased by 100 while under the effect of Hindsbane Venom.
Additional Effect: Grants Flankstung Venom
Flankstung Venom Effect: Increases potency of Flanksting Strike by 100
Duration: 40s
Effect cannot be stacked with other viper venom effects.
Additional Effect: Increases Serpent Offerings Gauge by 10
Can only be executed after successfully landing Swiftskin's Sting.

※This action cannot be assigned to a hotbar.
※Swiftskin's Sting changes to Hindsbane Fang when requirements for execution are met. (Swiftskin's Sting isn't even on your hotbar)

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's almost like all the people who asked for condensed buttons had no clue what they were actually asking for, if they thought it was going to make a typical PvE rotation more intuitive to play. All it does here is make a simple rotation seem more complicated than it is.

Viper hotbars have so much empty space too, what's that point in not letting you dedicate slots?

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The idea would be to fill that space with new abilities that have more interesting interactions than "Please press these in the specified order. Look, we'll even light them up for you so you don't have to think." Because that quite literally is *all* there is to Viper. Just follow the glowing button. Its singular non-damage ability is a gap closer.

This would be a half developed class even if its combos weren't condensed this way.

"Hit the glowy button" is not an acceptable explanation to me. That's just not how my brain works. I need to know HOW skills relate together. On that note I will attempt to explain the Job:
I can only speak on the lvl80 rotation. For now, I will ignore the AoE rotation (which is quite simple) and focus on the basic single target rotation. The ST rotation is why this class feels so incomprehensible.

The Viper's gameplay is meant to relate to the Viper's signature 2 sword style. Viper essentially has a 1-2-3 combo split between 2 buttons. This is meant to serve as the Viper's Job identity. These 2 buttons are meant to alternate in sequence to constitute the single target rotation. You are meant to alternate between these two buttons in a 3 step process.

The 2 combo buttons begin as the skills named Steel Fangs and Dread Fangs. Both these skills (and their future morphs)have 3 steps in their combo progression: Step 1, Step 2, Step 3, Repeat. In Step 1, I will refer to these original 2 skills not by name but simply as (button)1 and (button)2. For sake of explanation don't worry about the names or effects of skills. For sake of simplicity, pretend that Dread Fangs (in Step 1) doesn't exist. We will always start Step 1 by casting Steel Fangs (Button 1). This leads us into Step 2. I call these skills in Step 2, x (button 1, previously Steel Fangs) and y (button 2, previously Dread Fangs). Your input in Step 2 will lead to a pair of unique finisher skills in Step 3. x will lead to Button 1 becoming, what I call, skill 1a and Button 2 becoming skill 2a. y will lead to Button 1 becoming skill 1b and Button 2 becoming skill 2b. 4 distinct finishers - 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b. The rotation is meant to alternate between those 4 finishers.

Step 1 1
|
Step 2 x | y
| |
Step 3 1a 2a | 1b 2b

To simplify - there are 4 combo finishers: 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b
The combo sequence to arrive at these finishers is as follows:
1a = 1 - x - 1 (Flanksting Strike)
1b = 1 - y - 1 (Hindsting Strike)
2a = 1 - x - 2 (Flanksbane Fang)
2b = 1 - y - 2 (Hindsbane Fang)

A pattern emerges. Step 1: repeated Button 1 input. Step 2: alternating 1/2 button inputs every round. Step 3: alternating button inputs every other round.

(CONTINUED IN REPLY TO THIS POST)

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Normal Combo always starts with two skills on Combo 1 which is either a raw damage attack or a Debuff attack that makes the enemy take +10% more damage.

Then skill 2 is just use any of the two Combo 2 skills. The order does not matter since the one you did not pick will be your next Combo 2 skill.

Skill 3 is the one players need to pay attention on because the color of Combo 3 skill determines their position for flank or rear. Red skills are Rear attack skills and Green skills are Flank attack skills.

Then end the combo with the Finisher skill being the skill that is Serpent's.

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Aso just just some stuff i noticed.

The 2nd parts of the combo will determine the positional of the 3rd part of the combo. So if you use skill 1 it's going to be flank, skill 2 will be rear. Because of the way your 3rd part combo buff works, it forced the 2nd part of the combo to alternate.

The 3rd part of the combo will buff 1 of the 4 3rd part combo. In practice it looks like this 2-1-1-2.
Your starting position in this sequence will depend on your first combo. I prefer to start with 2-2-2.

Now if we put these together with my stating point
It will look like this. 2-2, 1-1, 2-1, 1-2. You can see a patern here where you press the same button twice and when if crosses. Here's its, double press, double press, cross, cross. And this is how you can memorize the combo.

My full combo would be
2-2-2, 1-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-1-2.

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Originally Posted by Jag227

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Now that we understand the theory, we can simplify the rotation to simple 1 or 2 button inputs. This rotation properly rotates between the 4 finisher skills. Full rotation:
1 - 1 - 1
1 - 2 - 1
1 - 1 - 2
1 - 2 - 2
REPEAT

To prove this is correct, place the 2 combo buttons (Steel Fang on 1, Dread Fang on 2 on your bar and press them according to this order. You will see this is the correct sequence of the "hit the glowy buttons" theory.

Now, notice how we never once used the skill Dread Fang - button option 2 during Step 1. This skill applies a 10% Damage Taken debuff to an enemy for 20 seconds (a very important ST damage debuff!) However, adding this skill into our rotation complicates it to an unimaginable degree. This skill is the reason Viper appears so incomprehensible. Watch what happens when we account for this skill. Since the debuff lasts for 20 seconds, it must be applied every 3rd round of our rotation (for optimal setup and 100% uptime)."2" in Step 1 represents "Dread Fang" The full rotation becomes:

2 - 1 - 1
1 - 2 - 1
1 - 1 - 2
2 - 2 - 2
1 - 1 - 1
1 - 2 - 1
2 - 1 - 2
1 - 2 - 2
1 - 1 - 1
2 - 2 - 1
1 - 1 - 2
1 - 2 - 2
2 - 1 - 1 (here for illustration, not meant to be used before Round 1)
REPEAT

This is what happens when you account for Dread Fang and maintain the pattern of alternating Step 2 every round and Step 3 every other round. Notice how we don't arrive back at our first round (2 - 1 - 1) for so long. Dread Fang alone transforms a 4-round rotation into a 12-round rotation.

(EDIT: The following is incorrect and corrected by @Shurrikhan)
Now, the debuff provided by Dread Fang - Noxious Gash - can be provided by another skill available to Viper - Dreadwinder. This skill holds 2 charges and refills every 40 seconds. Since each charge applies a 20s debuff, and we have 2 charges, we can achieve 100% uptime on the Noxious Gash debuff simply by using Dreadwinder ASAP when it becomes available. Also, this skill starts a separate combo chain which is far more powerful than our basic weapon combo anyway, so this leads to maximum damage potential.

From this, I can only conclude that Dread Fang should never be used. It is a wasted skill and only exists as a necessary placeholder skill for the 3 potential future skills that it morphs into as part of this single-button combo system implemented in this Job design. With the conclusion that this skill should never be cast, the Job becomes a lot more comprehensible to me. (Of course, I am exaggerating when I say it should "never be used". It can have utility when used to reapply that debuff to a new target on short notice.)

However, I find it impossible to track even the 4-round rotation. I cannot keep straight a rotation with such an alternating pattern. Step 2 alternates every round, and Step 3 alternates every other round. I forget which skill I just pressed all the time. In practice, this rotation feels impossible to keep track of, and almost forces you to play the "hit the glowy button" playstyle. It's far too complex otherwise. Especially when faced with complex boss mechanics. I would prefer to focus on the boss mechanics rather than be required to look at my skill bar constantly.

I would love to hear other's input on my thoughts. I'm happy to clarify, and explain other aspects of the Job as best I understand it, if needed. Perhaps 4 finishers is too much. For example, the AoE rotation is much more manageable with it's 2 finishers.

Yeah that sounds about right. You either have to memorize the 4 set of combos or 2 set and then reverse it for the next 2 set.

ST Fangs, AoE Maws.

Open first combo with Death's Design Noxious Gnash (+dmg taken from you debuff) via Dread Fang for 20s, then pick either Jinpu Hunter (Damage) buff with flank finisher or Shifu Swiftskin (Haste) buff with rear finisher. Thereafter, alternate, but using Steel Fang over Dread Fang except as needed to maintain Death's Design Noxious Gnash.

GCD-CDs (Winder/Pit buttons) open into Void Reaping/Cross Reaping Hunter's/Swiftskin where Hunter is again flank and gives Jinpu and Snakeskin is again rear and gives Shifu, again to be alternated (opener, A B; opener B, A). They also apply Death's Design Noxious Gnash for 20s while having a 40s CD, so that further reduces the number of Dread Fangs you have to use, though wholly overcapping on the debuff costs only 60 potency anyways, a la Armor Crush.

So ultimately you just have to remember whether your spammable combo finisher was most recently Flank or Rear and whether your GCD-CD combo finisher was most recently Flank or Rear... and alternate.

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Originally Posted by Jag227

Now, the debuff provided by Dread Fang - Noxious Gash - can be provided by another skill available to Viper - Dreadwinder. This skill holds 2 charges and refills every 40 seconds. Since each charge applies a 20s debuff, and we have 2 charges, we can achieve 100% uptime on the Noxious Gash debuff simply by using Dreadwinder ASAP when it becomes available. Also, this skill starts a separate combo chain which is far more powerful than our basic weapon combo anyway, so this leads to maximum damage potential.

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No, you cannot. Charges do not cool simultaneously, so only the actual recharge time matters for something's relative uptime. Dreadwinder provides 20s duration on a 40s CD. Accordingly, it will take the place of every other would-be Dread Fang, not all of them.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

No, you cannot. Charges do not cool simultaneously, so only the actual recharge time matters for something's relative uptime. Dreadwinder provides 20s duration on a 40s CD. Accordingly, it will take the place of every other would-be Dread Fang, not all of them.

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Ah, indeed you are right. Thanks. At least now I understand the context in which Dread Fang is necessary. That was seriously impeding my ability to understand the basic Job mechanics.

Now I'm wondering if I am better off always using the Noxious Gash opener of both the ST and AoE combo chains. For the sake of simplicity. Just sacrificing the slight damage bonus of Steel Fangs and Steel Maw openers. Otherwise things become so complex and messy. For example:

ST rotation
2-1-2
2-2-2
2-1-1
2-2-1
REPEAT

AoE rotation
2-1-1
2-2-2
REPEAT

At least that is a static rotation that is somewhat possible to memorize.

I wouldn't. You loose 60 potency everytime you do that. Might be better to just "hit the glowing button" instead of memorizing it.

Yeah, I just think I'd struggle looking at my skill bars so much, along with keeping track of buff/debuff timers and boss mechanics. Perhaps the Job is just not for me

I do the bare minimum reading and then just press the buttons that keep the dots /buffs up then press the fancy fun buttons when my dots / buffs are fine, Viper in a nutshell

(By dot I do mean the silly red rpr adjacent more damage thingy not actually a dot but blehblahbluh)

Yeah that's pretty much it but I am looking at my hot bar more then when I was playing other jobs

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

It's almost like all the people who asked for condensed buttons had no clue what they were actually asking for, if they thought it was going to make a typical PvE rotation more intuitive to play. All it does here is make a simple rotation seem more complicated than it is.

Viper hotbars have so much empty space too, what's that point in not letting you dedicate slots?

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Condensed hotbars are fine (PCT does it fantastically with the 12 aetherhue skills existing on 4 buttons) but VPR just doesn’t make the way the combos flow into each other make any sense in the hotbar explanations. You basically just have to bash a training dummy to understand what’s going on with VPR

you can have condensed combos without the action tooltips making no sense

I think what annoys me most about it is that the added this neat "combo chain" view to the skill page, and then it just completely fails to work AT ALL for both of the new jobs that have the PvP-style baked in combo chains. That view, it if resembled the flow charts out there for the VPR and PCT rotations, would have been immensely helpful for figuring out what was supposed to go where. As it stands, the only way to figure out the combo chains from the skill page is to carefully examine each tooltip, and then cross-reference the shockingly similar ability names and buff names and such (like, seriously, how many abilities did we need with "Hunter" or "Swiftskin" in their name?!) At least they put in the effort to make the ability light-up ants on Viper actually properly useful.

There's also some buttons that are nonsensically separated despite having no reason to be. I'm distinctly annoyed that all the stuff tied to Serpent Tail isn't tied to Twinfang or Twinblood. 3 dynamic fill-in-the-blank oGCD buttons feels over-engineered. I get why Twinfang and Twinblood are separate, to support the 1-2 or 2-1 weaving after the twinblade attacks and Uncoiled, but having an entirely separate oGCD button just for the weaves after the 3rd combo slap and the Legacy weaves during Reawaken is super silly, imo. Just put them all on either Twinfang or Twinblood. Or both, actually. I have Twinfang and Twinblood tied to two of my mouse buttons for easy weaving, but I don't have a convenient third one for Serpent Tail.

Took me hours to figure out how twinfang and twinblood work, which is similar to gunbreaker combos. But once I understood I found no place on my controller bar where I could comfortably cast them in quick succession as they are meant to be when combos off the skills that turn them on. Chain is 5 buttons but cross not at is only 4. Dragoon has 5 button combo but they feed into each other so swap back and forth is natural. Viper skills are charges so it just a random one or 2 and done but having to juggle my fingers to find the correct buttons is maddening.

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Originally Posted by Blindheart

Took me hours to figure out how twinfang and twinblood work, which is similar to gunbreaker combos. But once I understood I found no place on my controller bar where I could comfortably cast them in quick succession as they are meant to be when combos off the skills that turn them on. Chain is 5 buttons but cross not at is only 4. Dragoon has 5 button combo but they feed into each other so swap back and forth is natural. Viper skills are charges so it just a random one or 2 and done but having to juggle my fingers to find the correct buttons is maddening.

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I have a system, that works for me, but it seems completely nonsensicle.

https://i.imgur.com/lbOILW5.png

You have the basic combo on the right, with Death Rattle on the left, then you have the Dreadwinder combo on the left, with the 2 oGCDs on the right.

My Viper is only level 83, so things might change, but at the moment, this works....for me. As a reference, Uncoiled Fury is on R2 > L2 cross. I did put Twinfang/blood there as well, but whether I use those ones or the ones on the main bar is yet to be determined.

I play since HW

Viper was one of the easiest job to learn, it's very intuitive

Reading through my level 90+ abilities, I found out that the button layout I find comfortable for me while right now while leveling wouldn't work at all once I go past level 90. This is actually atrocious design, I can't even wrap my head around creating a comfortable button layout that also lets me group utility buttons in a way that's consistent across any of the other jobs.

Why do Third and Fourth Generation chain into Serpent's Tail when the buttons they replaced originally chain into Twinfang and Twinblood respectively? In fact, why can't all of the ogcds turn into Legacy buttons during Reawakening?

I have to say it's a rough but I got the hang of it within 30 minutes. The tutorial is... Okay.
But afterwards I went to a striking dummy and basically just attacked then read the tool tips of what changed and I got the general idea of how it played.
Though I've played the game since ARR and played MMOs before this. I thought Viper was meant to be a noob friendly job, like yeah once you have figured it out it's easier but for anyone who hasn't played before I feel like this would give them an aneurism.

The media tour people did say the job is "deceptively difficult", but once its in your hands it starts to click. My controller hotbars are laid out in such a way nothing feels all over the place. Such a fun job compared to other DPS I've played before.

Probably going to make this my main going forward, since it's a two-sword aesthetic that I'm also drawn to that Ninja just couldn't give.

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Originally Posted by Tracewood

The media tour people did say the job is "deceptively difficult", but once its in your hands it starts to click. My controller hotbars are laid out in such a way nothing feels all over the place. Such a fun job compared to other DPS I've played before.

Probably going to make this my main going forward, since it's a two-sword aesthetic that I'm also drawn to that Ninja just couldn't give.

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Same. I've even learned how to use the vipersting gauge so I can watch the cool animations instead of staring at my crossbars looking for glowy buttons lol