Healer's strike answer and Tank identity

Hello everyone..

After the spread of a clip of Xeno and the attack that happened to the developers of ffxiv, some of whom attacked and some of whom are still searching for the truth.. I would like to suggest some positive changes related to the mechanics of playing as a tank and a healer.

from my analysis I see there is a huge problem with Identity to healers and tanks.. and I believe that isn't the case for DPS and to give guide line.. changes will have clear goals and it will be as follows:

• Add more engagement to Healers and Tanks
• Clear Identity and purpose of why this specific role exist
• Make the role less braindead without making the game hard
• Reduce unnecessary healer and tank skills

What are changes?

• Changes of what is Tank buster and how it will be working
• How tanks will be acting when they receive a tank buster.
• Do we really need healer or support? yes but with a bit changes to its kit
• New roles? healers or supports?

Let's start:
Changes of what is Tank buster and how it will be working
let's take an example if someone play ninja and choose the wrong order of skills it will spawn rabbit in its head or playing blackmage and fail its combo will require starting its rotation, tanks have no down side if any skill fails not only that but no actual reward.

how we can add reward to tanks? give them more mechanic to manage.
the first mechanic come to my mind is Tank busters why?
all dungeon boss or elite monsters have tank busters
all raids have tank busters

most of the content have this mechanic and it already exist in 2 forms:

• Magic tank buster
• Physical tank buster

What if we can utilize this mechanic to tanks kit? and how it will be done?

How tanks will be acting when they receive a tank buster.
each tank will have 2 mitigation and each mitigation will be counter of of specific type of tank buster.. I will take examples:

Warrior:
Bloodwhetting -> counter to Physical tank buster.
Vengeance - > counter to Magic tank buster.

There will be a clear identification if this specific tank buster is magic or physical.

If Magic tank buster mechanic done correctly it will give bonus effect to team members based on job..
example:
- If Warrior it will give team member a max HP raised for X time or until they got the first hit.
- If Paladin it will give team member a Damage reduction for X time or until they got the first hit.
- If Gun breaker it will give heal + regen for team if they are 80% hp or less.
- If Dark Knight it will give barrier for team until they got first hit or X time.

by this change it will give a quick action to tanks to act so it will not be braindead (not just click any mitigation and pull 2 packs and do 1+2 rotation)

What about Physical Tank buster?
If Physical tank buster mechanic done correctly it will give bonus effect to tank based on the job..

example:
- If warrior it will give next inner release extra combo + self buff.
- If Dark Knight it will give next Delirium extra combo + self buff.
- If Paladin it will give next Requiescat extra combo + self buff.
- If Gun Breaker it will give next Gnashing Fang extra combo + self buff.

If tank misses its tank mitigation tank will receive extra damage (as we see today) and lose the effect.
If tank pick wrong tank buster counter it will just lose the effect only.

by the way I am just suggesting there is an area of improvement if I am missing anything.

last thing I need to add and I will tell the reason why:
- Tank Mastery II : Reduces damage taken by 40%. Furthermore, grants a bonus to maximum HP based on your vitality attribute, and a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute.

why? because other suggestion regarding new Healer role.
Do we really need healer or support? yes but with a bit changes to its kit

currently healer do:
80% - 90% healing or shielding
5% - 10% support ( bonus damage, damage taken reduce, increase direct hit, exc..)
5% or less doing actual damage.

most of dungeon healers can't use their actual healing abilities because of no need for it and most of the time they just use 111111 combo 90% of the time.. that give healer less value to the team why not just change this role and add some improvement?

Tanks and DPS is already having access of too many healing + mitigation spells.. just reduce its cooldown so not all mitigation will be done by just a 2 healer.

my idea is change what Healer role to 2 roles:
- Magical Support:
White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian, Sage
- Physical Support:
Bard, Dancer

how will Magical + Physical support will work?
let's give an example:
50% will be healing.
20% to 40% will be support buffs
30% to 10% will be damage skills.

so physical and magical supports will split into 2:
- Supports that lean more into buffs. (Astro)
- Support that lean more into DPS. (White mage)
so it will give healer much more than just a heal.

How team will look like?
In 8 man party:
- 2 Tanks.
- 2 Support (Magical or Physical)
- 4 DPS

in 4 man party:
1 Tank, 1 Support (Magical or Physical), 2 DPS.

in this way it will also improve queue for dungeons and raids.

New roles? healers or supports?

please give me your thoughts and why you think these changes will work or will not work.


Thank you

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Originally Posted by Tunda

my idea is change what Healer role to 2 roles:
- Magical Support:
White Mage, Scholar, Astrologian, Sage
- Physical Support:
Bard, Dancer

how will Magical + Physical support will work?
let's give an example:
50% will be healing.
20% to 40% will be support buffs
30% to 10% will be damage skills.

so physical and magical supports will split into 2:
- Supports that lean more into buffs. (Astro)
- Support that lean more into DPS. (White mage)
so it will give healer much more than just a heal.

How team will look like?
In 8 man party:
- 2 Tanks.
- 2 Support (Magical or Physical)
- 4 DPS

in 4 man party:
1 Tank, 1 Support (Magical or Physical), 2 DPS.

in this way it will also improve queue for dungeons and raids.

New roles? healers or supports?

please give me your thoughts and why you think these changes will work or will not work.


Thank you

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I like the idea of revamping the healer role into support. I do think this is a good way to modernize the trinity.

Got some good ideas in there.

As a BRD main, I don't want BRD to be moved to a 'support' role. It uses a bow, and has too many archer mechanics that I would not want to give up. Let it be a DPS. Like yeah, it should have buffs, and some utility, but if PCT can paint cartoons for damage then BRD should have no problem using music for damage as well.

Aside from that, I do mostly agree that healers could be re-contextualized as 'supports' to some degree. And gonna share this thought again, but I think tanks should have the ability to be incredibly sturdy, but their reliance on self healing is overused, and I think I would rather they have stronger active shielding, and mitigation to achieve their sturdiness. Yeah, there is some overstepping with some DPS jobs, but most of the gameplay problems lie with the tanks, and healers, and how they interact with each other, and how they interact with fights.

Restructuring the Roles alongside with Jobs would be pretty good for 8.0

In a dream world, they would make everyone greedy DPS baseline and have somekind of role subset skills that allow most or all Melees to swap to Tanking role and most Range&Casters to swap into Healing role.

However such large scale change is unlikely, so the next best step is to shift Healers into support. I'd rather see them throw buffs on short CD to teammates than repeat cast their one damage skill, if they are super averse on expanding the damage kit.

Quote:

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If Magic tank buster mechanic done correctly it will give bonus effect to team members based on job..
example:
- If Warrior it will give team member a max HP raised for X time or until they got the first hit.
- If Paladin it will give team member a Damage reduction for X time or until they got the first hit.
- If Gun breaker it will give heal + regen for team if they are 80% hp or less.
- If Dark Knight it will give barrier for team until they got first hit or X time.

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Quote:

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What about Physical Tank buster?
If Physical tank buster mechanic done correctly it will give bonus effect to tank based on the job..

example:
- If warrior it will give next inner release extra combo + self buff.
- If Dark Knight it will give next Delirium extra combo + self buff.
- If Paladin it will give next Requiescat extra combo + self buff.
- If Gun Breaker it will give next Gnashing Fang extra combo + self buff.

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If I understand this correctly, the Tankbuster consumes the mitigation and provides a benefit for mitigating it correctly. Whereas if mitigated incorrectly, it would just consume the mitigation?
And if not mitigated at all, I think it should debuff to some degree.

The healer being switched to support seems good.
The Phys Support may get a lot of backlash from BRD and DNC Mains, but the idea of support classes is not something that should be ignored.

Good post, I liked it a lot =]

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Originally Posted by NoOneofConsequence

If I understand this correctly, the Tankbuster consumes the mitigation and provides a benefit for mitigating it correctly. Whereas if mitigated incorrectly, it would just consume the mitigation?
And if not mitigated at all, I think it should debuff to some degree.

The healer being switched to support seems good.
The Phys Support may get a lot of backlash from BRD and DNC Mains, but the idea of support classes is not something that should be ignored.

Good post, I liked it a lot =]

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To simplify the game I just said that the effect will not apply... but 15% damage taken increase isn't a bad addition.

Regarding Bard is moving to support dps since existing.. and now DNC and BRD is more support than ever why not
just accept the truth

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Originally Posted by ThaCa

Restructuring the Roles alongside with Jobs would be pretty good for 8.0

In a dream world, they would make everyone greedy DPS baseline and have somekind of role subset skills that allow most or all Melees to swap to Tanking role and most Range&Casters to swap into Healing role.

However such large scale change is unlikely, so the next best step is to shift Healers into support. I'd rather see them throw buffs on short CD to teammates than repeat cast their one damage skill, if they are super averse on expanding the damage kit.

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I agree that is my point: I want to stop spam 111111 and do actual impact for healers.. I understand this is not the best approach for some people like to spam things.. but for me it is just boring

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Originally Posted by mallleable

As a BRD main, I don't want BRD to be moved to a 'support' role. It uses a bow, and has too many archer mechanics that I would not want to give up. Let it be a DPS. Like yeah, it should have buffs, and some utility, but if PCT can paint cartoons for damage then BRD should have no problem using music for damage as well.

Aside from that, I do mostly agree that healers could be re-contextualized as 'supports' to some degree. And gonna share this thought again, but I think tanks should have the ability to be incredibly sturdy, but their reliance on self healing is overused, and I think I would rather they have stronger active shielding, and mitigation to achieve their sturdiness. Yeah, there is some overstepping with some DPS jobs, but most of the gameplay problems lie with the tanks, and healers, and how they interact with each other, and how they interact with fights.

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BRD in dawntrail is more supportive than ever and DNC too but I see your point

I doubt Bards and Dancers want to heal 50% of their time. A lot of dancers seem unaware they even have defensive skills and a heal.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I doubt Bards and Dancers want to heal 50% of their time. A lot of dancers seem unaware they even have defensive skills and a heal.

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Simplifying heal abilities make it in their rotation.. I don't think it will be a hard job example: fairy in scholar

Personally if they made Bard a pure support healer I’d literally never touch another job lol

this is good in concepts but in practice probably not so much you'd make too many people mad for trying to change or force implement their favorite things into something else and the developers have stated on record they don't wish to strip things of their identity or force players into a designated playstyle.
i do understand its frustrating to want to do more as a healer than just mindlessly spam one button with the occasional other button but what i think would be even better than trying to rework jobs as a whole is to allow healer's kits to do damage that as a bonus heals your team mates we could bring DoTs back for this purpose even like say at the end of the duration of them it explodes dealing damage and healing allies within a certain radius. i think it would be much of a more middle ground that way so that healers can do both healing and damage at the same time

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I doubt Bards and Dancers want to heal 50% of their time. A lot of dancers seem unaware they even have defensive skills and a heal.

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If they made ranged DPS heal because healers want more uptime on dps then i'd stop playing both classes. A ranged DPS is a DPS. A healer is a healer.
it shouldnt be complicated to figure out who should be doing what.

I do like the idea of rewarding supports for using the correct support at the proper time. Mitigating a TB rewarding with damage buffs in various forms like delirium combos, etc, is actually great. It introduces variations into fights depending on the fight. You could even apply the same principle to healers on single target mitigation like benison, etc. This tends also to go into the same direction I had in mind to give all tanks a cover like ability working like Guardian in pvp, and triggering rewards to the user as well as preventing really bad things to happen to party members.

However I don't think that changing the identity of jobs like Bard would be a good idea. Having been on the end of such dramatic changes, it's been awful, and it was not even trying to change a DPS into a support.

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Originally Posted by ShadowyZero

this is good in concepts but in practice probably not so much you'd make too many people mad for trying to change or force implement their favorite things into something else and the developers have stated on record they don't wish to strip things of their identity or force players into a designated playstyle.

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I agree it would feel bad for many

Cries, Rage and Despair while shouting at the skies, thinking about DRK gameplay in HW/SB

For tank individuality, I think they should bring back the split between Physical and Magic damage.

Make PLD and WAR better at tanking Physical damage, GNB and DRK for Magic.
Also, make DRK into a Regen based tank like WAR and reduce their mitigation options.

Then get the developers to actually make fights that can use of a more sustain based tank by having higher consistent damage and less focus on just the occasional tankbuster, and don't make every boss just do Magic damage.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

As a BRD main, I don't want BRD to be moved to a 'support' role. It uses a bow, and has too many archer mechanics that I would not want to give up. Let it be a DPS. Like yeah, it should have buffs, and some utility, but if PCT can paint cartoons for damage then BRD should have no problem using music for damage as well.

Aside from that, I do mostly agree that healers could be re-contextualized as 'supports' to some degree. And gonna share this thought again, but I think tanks should have the ability to be incredibly sturdy, but their reliance on self healing is overused, and I think I would rather they have stronger active shielding, and mitigation to achieve their sturdiness. Yeah, there is some overstepping with some DPS jobs, but most of the gameplay problems lie with the tanks, and healers, and how they interact with each other, and how they interact with fights.

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OP is probably thinking more of a "Regular", or... "Classic" Bard/Minstrel. Probably something along the lines of more buff side effects.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

As a BRD main, I don't want BRD to be moved to a 'support' role. It uses a bow, and has too many archer mechanics that I would not want to give up. Let it be a DPS. Like yeah, it should have buffs, and some utility, but if PCT can paint cartoons for damage then BRD should have no problem using music for damage as well.

Aside from that, I do mostly agree that healers could be re-contextualized as 'supports' to some degree. And gonna share this thought again, but I think tanks should have the ability to be incredibly sturdy, but their reliance on self healing is overused, and I think I would rather they have stronger active shielding, and mitigation to achieve their sturdiness. Yeah, there is some overstepping with some DPS jobs, but most of the gameplay problems lie with the tanks, and healers, and how they interact with each other, and how they interact with fights.

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Maybe moving healers into the support role could be done together with moving ranged phys DPS further into the DPS space?

This would mean they'd have to step away (at least to a degree) from their current support identity and leave the biggest chunk of it with healers.
But on the other hand it might allow them to get some fresh and unique DPS rotations.
I agree with the picto comparison. I think they can retain a few supplementary support skills but it wouldn't be their main responsibility anymore and their skills wouldn't (be able to) compete with those of the support role.

For tanks, it'd be great if the tank busters were changed to cleaves. So many tank busters now are just single target hits. In other MMOs I know them to not only hit hard, but also make sense why you have the tank turn the boss away from the party. And those hard hitting cleaves, which instantly kill any non-tanks, aren't neccessarily announced by big flashing circles. There is a reason why a tank has big defense and a big HP pool: To lure those party-wipers away and face them alone. This is also one of the moments the heal has to step in and heal the tank up. Not, like SE's favourite god-class warrior, patch itself back up.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

Maybe moving healers into the support role could be done together with moving ranged phys DPS further into the DPS space?

This would mean they'd have to step away (at least to a degree) from their current support identity and leave the biggest chunk of it with healers.
But on the other hand it might allow them to get some fresh and unique DPS rotations.
I agree with the picto comparison. I think they can retain a few supplementary support skills but it wouldn't be their main responsibility anymore and their skills wouldn't (be able to) compete with those of the support role.

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Bard is more support than ever.. I would love to play bard if I can get instant queue and give an actual identity.. game could just add Hunter class which use bow as a dps range.. but bard is always a support class in every game or fantasy

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Originally Posted by Tunda

Bard is more support than ever.. I would love to play bard if I can get instant queue and give an actual identity.. game could just add Hunter class which use bow as a dps range.. but bard is always a support class in every game or fantasy

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To add to this, in the context of Final Fantasy Bards have always been pure support jobs that assist the party with buffs and healing (usually regen), so in the grand scheme of things there’s more precedent for the job to be a healer (and essentially none for it to be an archer).

That said, short of someone going back in time and giving whoever decided to mash Bard and Archer/Ranger together a good shake, I don’t sadly think anything will ever be done about it

DPS and Tanks need to be more responsible about their missing a mechanic or getting damage.. healer shouldn't be a baby sitter.. healer should be a support who manage team buffs and provide utility to the team

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Originally Posted by Connor

To add to this, in the context of Final Fantasy Bards have always been pure support jobs that assist the party with buffs and healing (usually regen), so in the grand scheme of things there’s more precedent for the job to be a healer (and essentially none for it to be an archer).

That said, short of someone going back in time and giving whoever decided to mash Bard and Archer/Ranger together a good shake, I don’t sadly think anything will ever be done about it

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I think what they should do they should add a new job.. that have the same idea of summoner and scholar.. which is bard and ranger.. you can level both of them at the same type: one is support(healer) and other is pure range DPS like Machinist.
it is also very clear that dancer is not an actual DPS job is it clearly a support with DPS kit.. so it is fitting really good with support role

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Originally Posted by Xerkrosis

For tanks, it'd be great if the tank busters were changed to cleaves. So many tank busters now are just single target hits. In other MMOs I know them to not only hit hard, but also make sense why you have the tank turn the boss away from the party. And those hard hitting cleaves, which instantly kill any non-tanks, aren't neccessarily announced by big flashing circles. There is a reason why a tank has big defense and a big HP pool: To lure those party-wipers away and face them alone. This is also one of the moments the heal has to step in and heal the tank up. Not, like SE's favourite god-class warrior, patch itself back up.

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I believe that no one will disagree with tank buster + tank role changes .. but Square enix wont change warrior to have less heals or paladin having less block so healers can heal.. I think most of the people hate the idea of healing 90% of the time and having no choices..

the Idea of card system in astrologian is the best thing that square enix did but in the worst time.. Astrologian could fit in Support very easily with minor changes to its kit and keeping random cards exist

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I doubt Bards and Dancers want to heal 50% of their time. A lot of dancers seem unaware they even have defensive skills and a heal.

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10 min tutorial could teach people button number 4 heal people

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Originally Posted by Connor

Personally if they made Bard a pure support healer I’d literally never touch another job lol

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Personally I like bard.. but i can't see this job as a DPS its clearly a very support job with DPS kit.. same as Astrologian it is clearly a support job with Healer kit

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Originally Posted by MichiKyou

If they made ranged DPS heal because healers want more uptime on dps then i'd stop playing both classes. A ranged DPS is a DPS. A healer is a healer.
it shouldnt be complicated to figure out who should be doing what.

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why we need healers? man i can do any dungeon currently with "Modern Jobs" like warrior and red mage and monk with 50% of current healer kit with no issues

Just because thinking of support roles, I've always been a fan of the more clever forms of support.

Rogues and ninjas are typically assassins and sneaky glass cannons in games, but I always loved the debuff masters that armour crush and give people elemental weaknesses and stuff to help team exploit!

Or like, depending on the Final Fantasy, summoners are both some of the hardest hitting mages, and also some of the most versatile mages. They usually just lack in speed and consistency. (Red mages are faster and black mages consistently hit hard.) A summoner could be support in that there are dozens of summons that are either healers, buffs, or random bonuses. While the classic summons tend to be the big elemental damage spells.

Not sure I'm adding much but just voicing that since job identity is supposedly a thing down the line, who and how said classes actually help the game could maybe do with a bigger shake up!

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Originally Posted by Felfox

Just because thinking of support roles, I've always been a fan of the more clever forms of support.

Rogues and ninjas are typically assassins and sneaky glass cannons in games, but I always loved the debuff masters that armour crush and give people elemental weaknesses and stuff to help team exploit!

Or like, depending on the Final Fantasy, summoners are both some of the hardest hitting mages, and also some of the most versatile mages. They usually just lack in speed and consistency. (Red mages are faster and black mages consistently hit hard.) A summoner could be support in that there are dozens of summons that are either healers, buffs, or random bonuses. While the classic summons tend to be the big elemental damage spells.

Not sure I'm adding much but just voicing that since job identity is supposedly a thing down the line, who and how said classes actually help the game could maybe do with a bigger shake up!

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I agree having more variant type of support is the idea that I really want to be implemented in ffxiv

Have you heard of combo buffs?

Imagine ninja ninjitsu kit but in a supportive way