Dawntrail Ninja looks boring

Let me preface this by saying that I have been playing Ninja at a raiding level since Eden's Promise in Shadowbringers. Since I picked it up I have delved deeply into the theorycrafting side of the job, and am incredibly familiar with all aspects of the job.

The Ninja that has been shown off in the Dawntrail Media Tour videos, for me and the people I know, has been incredibly disappointing. While the masses can be seen reveling that the job hasn't changed, I am displeased for the same reason. When an expansion comes around it is typically a time when your beloved job finally gets a refresh, a new coat of paint, a new set of skills that you can look forward to using. For Ninja that isn't the case. The iteration of Ninja that has been shown to us is almost identical to it's current state, and arguably identical to the iteration of Ninja we had received post patch 5.1.

There are some changes that I agree with, such as the removal of Huton as a buff and turning it's effect into a passive trait. This makes Ninja at a low level far more enjoyable as you do not have to spend one of your shiny Mudra charges on Huton for upkeep from levels 45 to 54. Instead you can spend it on Raiton, which I feel most can agree is cooler and therefore more fun. Changing Trick Attack to be an AOE is also a great change, and is one of the few additions to Ninja being added that can potentially lead to some interesting optimization later on.

But I would not be making this thread and expressing my disappointment with the changes, or lack thereof, if the Ninja that has been shown to us was anywhere near what I was hoping for, and I wasn't hoping for much.

Kazematoi, or the Kunai Gauge, is exceptionally underwhelming. It's only purpose is to ensure that Armor Crush still has a function after the removal of Huton management. Despite the removal of Huton management Ninja still engages in a meaningless dance between Armor Crush and Aeolian Edge. Our core combo is bland and needs something new added to it, because as it stands it is just a boring cycle of 1-2-4, 1-2-3, 1-2-3, 1-2-4. If we simply got a new GCD or combo that wasn't strong enough to be put into buffs but strong enough that you'd want to use it out of buffs, that would be a good step in the direction to making Ninja's filler less mundane. Even something similar to Viper's Dreadwinder combo where you have a charge system on a cooldown, that isn't strong enough to be put into buffs but is stronger than your normal 1-2-3 combo. This, or something like it, would provide much needed variation to Ninja's filler.

Bhavacakra and Hellfrog Medium have both received upgrades, but unfortunately the way they have been implemented is underwhelming. Instead of upgrading Bhavacakra and Hellfrog Medium to completely new skills, instead Mug temporarily augments them into the new versions which you can only use once per two minutes. That is a fairly common trend surrounding all of Ninjas "new" kit, you only get to see it once every two minutes. The exception to this being Trick Attack's upgrade, Kunai's Bane. So not only will the job play the same as it has for the past two years at least, it will continue to look the same for 100 of every 120 seconds. I would've preferred if these were permanent upgrades instead of temporary augments that are locked behind a two minute cooldown.

Tenri Jindo is Ninja's capstone ability which can be executed after successfully performing Ten Chi Jin. When I first saw this skill I was hoping that it was a GCD, something to put in burst and potentially allow for one of our stronger skills to fall out of buffs and be used elsewhere. Instead it is an oGCD that can only be used after Ten Chi Jin, where a lot of oGCDs already are used. Meisui still exists which also provides a whole Bhavacakra, and with the addition of Tenri Jindo we now have three oGCDs directly tied to TCJ. Not to mention that Mug still gives 40 Ninki so if you have more than 5 Ninki going into your two minute window you're looking at another Bhavacakra being weaved somewhere. if Dream Within A Dream was removed there would have been room to weave this Bhavacakra after Hyosho Ranryu, but it still exists, and TCJ is weaved after Raiton so there's no room there either.

This kinda sums up why most of the DT job changes in general are boring.

Most of the jobs just got extensions to two minute cooldowns or upgrades to existing skills so the only thing they're doing differently is hitting an extra button and/or substituting a button during the burst window

To play devil's advocate, making Ninja easier is not altogether a bad thing. Some of the changes are very welcome.
Ever do main scenerio or levelling roulette where you're at level 50 or lower and no way of maintaining your Huton except for re-casting it? It sucks. Having a permanent Huton will be amazing.
AoE trick attack will give us better damage during AoE pull phases, which comprise what, 90% of most dungeons? It will improve not just our damage, but the entire party's, and give TA a purpose outside of boss burst windows.

As for making Ninja easier... ever see the numbers of people playing Reaper? There's a reason for that. It's an easy dps class.
NIN and MNK aren't seen as often because a lot of players can put out similar numbers with RPR, while having half the key presses or mental stress.

Will I miss the current NIN? Yes. But the future one doesn't look half bad either. Let's wait and see how it plays.

Everything looks boring in Dawntrail.
Story is looking like a beach episode, combat is an extention of EW class design but further simplified and everyone got the same new thing.
There's a hillarious amount of overlap of decline in gameplay quality between Warlords of Draenor and Endwalker.
I think 14 has peaked, and reached a stagnation point in SHB.
Endwalker just had the benefit of a worldwide pandemic, a bad WoW expansion and very big streamers trying it out. Which makes it less obvious.
All those streamers left dissatisfied with the gameplay loop, the Zodiark/Hydaelin story arc concluded and the pandemic is over.
I've seen *so* many people quit the game in the last 2 years. And general interest in Dawntrail seems kinda low.

Speaking only for myself, though I suppose I number among the OP's "masses," I could not disagree more.

Currently, NIN is one of my favorite classes from any MMO, and I've played quite a few. (I was fortunate, I think, to start playing FF14 during ShB as I don't think I would have liked the prior mudra implementation.) The flow of ShB NIN played great for me: the ebb and flow of satisfying burst windows and calmer intermissions is my jam. EW made NIN even better by dropping some things like shadowfang and adding some things like phantom kamaitachi and raiju. Love EW NIN.

Now, DT is coming with updates to current moves (some situational during burst), a new gauge for intermissions, and a new oGCD magic finisher with a sweet graphic while keeping the flow of NIN through the last two expansions. Yeah, I'm hype for that.

Sorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They are going all in on the combo system this expansion to free up hotbars. I think they are going a little too far, but we'll have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Aaramis

To play devil's advocate, making Ninja easier is not altogether a bad thing. Some of the changes are very welcome.
Ever do main scenerio or levelling roulette where you're at level 50 or lower and no way of maintaining your Huton except for re-casting it? It sucks. Having a permanent Huton will be amazing.
AoE trick attack will give us better damage during AoE pull phases, which comprise what, 90% of most dungeons? It will improve not just our damage, but the entire party's, and give TA a purpose outside of boss burst windows.

As for making Ninja easier... ever see the numbers of people playing Reaper? There's a reason for that. It's an easy dps class.
NIN and MNK aren't seen as often because a lot of players can put out similar numbers with RPR, while having half the key presses or mental stress.

Will I miss the current NIN? Yes. But the future one doesn't look half bad either. Let's wait and see how it plays.

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Not once was it said that Ninja is being made easier so I don't know who you're play Devil's Advocate for. I stated that I am okay with the Huton change, I agree that is benefits low-level Ninja a lot and makes it more enjoyable. Nothing about difficulty was mentioned though. If anything, the job's difficulty isn't changing at all because the job itself is barely changing. If anything the job is going to be slightly MORE difficulty now because players will have to weave in another oGCD after TCJ, which may prove to be a challenge for those who struggle to double-weave.

Trick Attack/Kunai's Bane only affects our own damage so I don't know why you're talking like it's still a party buff. But I do agree that AOE Trick is also a nice QoL change which may lead to rotational changes in fights with two bosses. But Trick Attack will never have a purpose outside of burst windows because it itself is the start of the burst window, as by being a buff it creates the burst window.

I'm personally happy ninja isn't changing much , honestly it's like the only job that truly didn't stop evolving in its rotation till lvl90 . If it's just flashier moves and power bursts this time around I'm all for it . Having to deal with changes like at the beginning of Shb and EW and for it to be clunky and underpowered for TA's balancing issues and waiting til X.08/X.1 for major reworks for it to be even viable for hardcore content was the worst ... I basically had to unsub after the msq both times till ninja got somewhat fixed . I've prolly played like 6 different versions of NiN in the past 5 years and it's in a good place, no need to break the job again just to rebuild it . I get to go into an expansion feeling like a MotherF***'N NINJA ASSASIN and this version being the most selfish dps that it has ever been makes me happy

I think the kunai gauge is more or less equal to what it replaces, not mad at it.

In fact, with AoE Trick Attack, I feel that NIN was the most fortunate of the dpsers, which in general is pretty bad. Basically Dawntrail job design boils down to 'bland follow up attacks'.

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Originally Posted by Aaramis

To play devil's advocate, making Ninja easier is not altogether a bad thing. Some of the changes are very welcome.
Ever do main scenerio or levelling roulette where you're at level 50 or lower and no way of maintaining your Huton except for re-casting it? It sucks. Having a permanent Huton will be amazing.
AoE trick attack will give us better damage during AoE pull phases, which comprise what, 90% of most dungeons? It will improve not just our damage, but the entire party's, and give TA a purpose outside of boss burst windows.

As for making Ninja easier... ever see the numbers of people playing Reaper? There's a reason for that. It's an easy dps class.
NIN and MNK aren't seen as often because a lot of players can put out similar numbers with RPR, while having half the key presses or mental stress.

Will I miss the current NIN? Yes. But the future one doesn't look half bad either. Let's wait and see how it plays.

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What sucks about recasting Huton? Just do it? People say "It sucks" as if it's a given, but you're recasting an ability to maintain a really powerful buff. That's fine. I hate the Huton changes because I liked the old timer gauge and the animation looked better than the new one imo

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Originally Posted by velswen

What sucks about recasting Huton?

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Usuing limited ninjustu charges in combat to reapply Huton rather than to cast Raiton/Katon is not particularly satisfying.

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Originally Posted by velswen

What sucks about recasting Huton? Just do it?

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That's the thing , it's just something you do without any real meaning or purpose . It's not like it's tied to other abilities like how you needed to maintain Huton for Shadow Fang because its alignment was directly dependent on it in Shb. To me AE and AC are basically the same , both same ninki gain and only a 20 potency difference ... woop dee do ... at least now they get to play off of each other. It will also make pre-Raiju gameplay alittle more worthwhile because you'll have something to stack up for especially pre 70 before your real burst window toolkit fills out.

Also I just think Ninja as a job should be naturally fast ... I mean you get a trait to make your legs faster but you need wind ninjitsu to make your arms move faster ?!?!?! should be the other way around lol

I personally HATE syncing with ninja but as I've thought about it , it's really one of the best things they could've done to make it fun to play at all level ranges . I also could never stand the Wind Mill , I always kept it on simple mode lol

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Originally Posted by Ilyn

both same ninki gain and only a 20 potency difference ... woop dee do ...

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Wait till you hear how a Dread Fangs combo and a Steel Fangs combo on Viper generates the same Serpent Offerings but one is 100 potency less.

This is the case for basically every melee with a buff. The GCD that applies the buff is a weaker counterpart but maintains the buff, while also generating the same amount of gauge resources.

Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush are not "playing off of each other" any more than they currently do pre-DT. You still alternate between the two, you still need to maintain a buff with Armor Crush (which is less potency that a buffed Aeolian Edge), and they both still provide the same amount of Ninki. Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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So there is more interplay between the two than before if we're doing more AC per AE. AC actually changes the potency of AE now, and we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense that rarely works out in DF trials or raids because nobody uses a pull timer.

Then for the rest of the changes, trick attack will now feel worthwhile in AoE, and tenchijin has way more AoE value. AoE ninja is going to feel 100x better for those who do a lot of dungeons. Mug got an interaction added to it with your ninki spenders and a new animation.

How can you complain about these changes if you loved ninja already? It is just becoming objectively better in every single way with added nuance.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense

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you know that hide resets Mudra^^
you basicly Mudra Huton -> Hide, gg

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

So there is more interplay between the two than before if we're doing more AC per AE. AC actually changes the potency of AE now

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Just because it changes the potency does not change the fact that the job plays identically. That is the primary issue I have with Dawntrail's iteration of Ninja, it plays just like it has since 6.1.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

and we don't have to waste mudra or bother with pre-pull nonsense that rarely works out in DF trials or raids because nobody uses a pull timer.

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As I've said in my initial post and follow-up posts, I agree with the Huton change. I think it is good for lower-level play, and as you say it takes away from pointless pre-pull nonsense. I am not against this point, and I find it so weird that people continue to refute as if I don't want any of the changes coming in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

How can you complain about these changes if you loved ninja already? It is just becoming objectively better in every single way with added nuance.

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Because, as is my primary point, the job plays almost identically to current Ninja, and arguably ShB Ninja. I do appreciate the QoL changes that Ninja is receiving, but these changes are overshadowed by the lack of impactful change that Ninja has received to it's rotation.
It has received nothing new to its filler, continuing to just 1-2-3, 1-2-4, with a Suiton when Trick Attack's cooldown is below 20s and before you overcap on Mudra charges.
The two minute window has ONE new oGCD that we push after TCJ. Mug only buffs the next Bhava/Hellfrog once per use.
With the exception of Trick Attack's upgraded AOE animation, all the new changes to the job we only see once every 2 minutes. Dokumori, Tenri Jindo, Zesho Meppo, Deathfrog Medium, are all things locked to a 2min cooldown, so for the rest of the rotation it is more of the same that we've had for years.

There are some interesting things they could've done.
They could've made Dokumori give a use for BOTH Zesho Meppo and Deathfrog Medium, and made Deathfrog Medium stronger than Bhavacakra so that you use both, instead of being stuck to Bhavacakra in single-target.
They could've made Tenri Jindo a GCD which would give options for what to push out of buffs. Maybe it allows you to push a Raiton out of buffs which can then be used during filler to maintain uptime if there's a melee disconnect.
They could've kept Huraijin and made it use up all stacks of Kazematoi, with its potency increasing per stack consumed, similar to the new Six-Sided Star.
We could've gotten a third AOE GCD, instead of being stuck with the same 1-2 AOE we've had since Heavensward.
We could've gotten upgraded Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush at least, since these have also been the same animation since ARR and Heavensward respectively.

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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I think it has cool stuff added to it without breaking the job design or flow. It's already a really busy burst window and it's even more busy now. The AoE changes are far more than just quality of life and personally those are the only real problems I had with the job.

I think they are currently in a difficult position because you can't really add much more to the jobs without pruning and people dislike pruning a lot. Especially in jobs that are borderline perfect as is like ninja. I think the only thing lacking in endwalker was AoE design, but now it is completely fixed for dawntrail and just as perfect as the rest of the job.

I get that there is little to no difference in the AC/AE rotation, but the interplay makes it feel better because it's not just maintaining a buff, it is actually increasing the potency of AE directly. Personally I really like the animation of Bhavacakra and wouldn't like it removed from the burst window entirely. I was sad to see it was changing, but now I know it's only one use every two minutes and bhava is still part of the burst. Just not twice. Adding a third AoE means adding another keybind to a job that already has a lot of keybinds for something as shallow as a combo chain. The nin aoe experience is totally refined in dawntrail and I think it is really good.

Is there something wrong with a job being so close to perfection that they can only really add a few cherries on top? The AoE changes are definitely significant though.

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Originally Posted by RyuuZero

you know that hide resets Mudra^^
you basicly Mudra Huton -> Hide, gg

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Can you at least read the entire sentence you're referring to before posting a silly response? Nearly everyone who plays nin in this thread thinks that the change is for the best.

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Originally Posted by Akashii

Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush are not "playing off of each other" any more than they currently do pre-DT. You still alternate between the two, you still need to maintain a buff with Armor Crush (which is less potency that a buffed Aeolian Edge), and they both still provide the same amount of Ninki. Nothing is actually new, you're just doing 1 more AC per AE than you used to.

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All I'm saying is AE will be more impactful especially in lower level content where you can fit multiple AE inside a burst and more incentivized to do so . Right now if (for some reason) I have to use AC to reset my timer instead of AE I'm basically like "whatever" .. no big deal . Nothing new is fine, like I stated in an earlier post " I've prolly played like 6 different versions of nin in the past 5 years and it's in a good place, no need to break the job again just to rebuild it " the beginning of 4.0, 5.0 and 6.0 were not fun times .

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Originally Posted by Akashii

There are some interesting things they could've done.
They could've made Dokumori give a use for BOTH Zesho Meppo and Deathfrog Medium, and made Deathfrog Medium stronger than Bhavacakra so that you use both, instead of being stuck to Bhavacakra in single-target.
They could've made Tenri Jindo a GCD which would give options for what to push out of buffs. Maybe it allows you to push a Raiton out of buffs which can then be used during filler to maintain uptime if there's a melee disconnect.
They could've kept Huraijin and made it use up all stacks of Kazematoi, with its potency increasing per stack consumed, similar to the new Six-Sided Star.
We could've gotten a third AOE GCD, instead of being stuck with the same 1-2 AOE we've had since Heavensward.
We could've gotten upgraded Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush at least, since these have also been the same animation since ARR and Heavensward respectively.

There are so many more interesting things we could've gotten, and instead we got a QoL update for an expansion.

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The only thing I would want is for Kazematoi to get spent with Raijus as well as AE .
It's not just QoL and 1 new ability , it's a fully jacked up opener which is ninjas whole identity . Ninja is like the only job where it's combat loop didn't stop evolving till lvl 90 which IMO is a good stopping point

Hmmm I'm pretty sure Hakke Mujinsatsu didn't get added till Shb .. all we had was Death Blossom up to that point lol

It's just a wait and see now, you never know what changes they'll make by release and all the way till 7.1

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Originally Posted by HikariKurosawa

Is there something wrong with a job being so close to perfection that they can only really add a few cherries on top? The AoE changes are definitely significant though.

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Have to agree it's just icing on the cake :D .. Also I really don't see Huton being useful pre lv94 unless you wanna take a AoE damage loss to use TA on a Alpha type mob. Might be useful if you want everything to die at the same time Hmmm

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They are going all in on the combo system this expansion to free up hotbars. I think they are going a little too far, but we'll have to wait and see.

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I still think removing stuff to make stuff more interesting later on is just cope. The Devs could of added anything to SMN and they added another Demi-Summon and not only that but another bahamut with an aoe version of pheonix's targeted heal.
Does anyone really expect anything from 8.0 and not only that why are we even thinking about future expansions versions of jobs when we are 2 weeks away from the the newest expansion.

+1 and agree with Akashi. From Media Tour information, Dawntrail NIN is uninspiring. Slapping a new shiny oGCD every 2-minutes appears lazy on the dev's behalf. Of course people will eat it up because new awesome animation, but from a critical point of view, it's boring. Our job has been roughly the same since 5.1. Only good thing I feel was the Huton change for dungeons.

They could, trying to utilize what they already added and being simple:
- Extend Kunai's Bane to 20s, similar to other buffs. This would allow us to finally fit our entire burst in (this is more QoL though).
- Tenri Jindo a GCD, paired w/ the change above.
- I would have liked to see Deathfrog or Zesho more (or tie it to Kunai's Bane instead). And maybe if we could use both Frog & Zesho, and that they don't cost ninki.

Ideally I'd have liked a change to our basic combo path, or a new combo route (but maybe this is asking too much considering across other jobs the changes are bland). We spend most of our time spamming 1-2-3-1-2-3. This has been an issue with the job since 5.1. Our new gauge doesn't make this any more interesting either.

Oddly enough, I do somewhat prefer them giving little changes opposed to an entire rework that ruins a job (like EW SMN and what appears to be the BLM changes now), but that speaks more how much I don't trust their design philosophy anymore. I do love this game and I love the idea of ninja, but I can't help but feel increasingly disappointed at many of SE's decisions in regards to job design.

Sounds like they want to make major adjustments in 7.2 (unsure how true this is) and at least 8.0.

Looks like that got changed, Huton is an AOE now.

could have atleast updated the 123 combo from ARR since we are playing same job for 2 more years