Is this the first time Native Mesoamerican culture has been represented in FF?

After the Indian expansion which is Endwalker...

(Nidhana says hi)

We now have *drum roll*

https://i.ibb.co/rb6Y3j3/new-dawntra...1ymivfseb1.jpg

This is very "Reminscent" in Maya:

https://i.ibb.co/t4bJnbD/1-4-OEq4swt...-IDMo-OIg.webp

I looked through all other Final Fantasy game and I believe this is the first time Maya or Aztec has a Representation in the game.

I would like to see an Africa expansion next, where we can explore Mali, or Ethiopia :o

Seems like troll topics are like 80% of these forums.

SAD!

I like that they're trying to depict cultures that are uncommonly depicted in most media, especially video games.

Also this specific area is not mesoamerican, but south american based (bolivia/peru, aka aymara/inka/etc), as you can probably tell by the villages up the mountains, the llamas and allpacas, the stone houses with straw roofs, and the colourful cloaks and capes. We had the mayan pyramids in Ronka.

Weren't the Ronkan ruins in ShB in the Rak'tika Greatwood based on South American culture and architecture as well? Seemed like they were to me.

The ones in Rak'tika were clearly mayan pyramids. South american cultures never built pyramids as far as I know, only fortresses.

However some actually quechua names or concepts were sometimes used in Ronka yes, like the riddle construct turning scions into cards after wrong answers being called a Huaca. But most were mesoamerican (like most of the landmarks in the Raktika map).

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Originally Posted by Valence

The ones in Rak'tika were clearly mayan pyramids. South american cultures never built pyramids as far as I know, only fortresses.

However some actually quechua names or concepts were sometimes used in Ronka yes, like the riddle construct turning scions into cards after wrong answers being called a Huaca. But most were mesoamerican (like most of the landmarks in the Raktika map).

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I'm not versed in pre-Columbian American history or the nuances of architecture, so I won't argue. But doesn't Peru have pyramids? That's in South America, not North America.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I'm not versed in pre-Columbian American history or the nuances of architecture, so I won't argue. But doesn't Peru have pyramids? That's in South America, not North America.

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If you count the Moche temples or things like Huaca del Sol pyramids I guess but... they're not pyramids geometrically for sure. Just very massive temples. If you want the classical pyramids you'll have to look at Mayas (pre 1000 AC), or Aztecs (post 1000 AC), which are mesoamerican. The Incan Empire (1200/1400 AC) and the civilizations that came before in South America are separated by thousands of kilometers, it's a very different type of culture and visuals. The former are tropically based, the latter live on top of the Andean mountains (even though the Incan Empire at its height had little to envy to the roman empire in surface, and had a lot of different cultures integrated into it).


( I'm very excited for that area in DT, I'm a big fan of quechua/aymara cultures )

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you count the Moche temples or things like Huaca del Sol pyramids I guess but... they're not pyramids geometrically for sure. Just very massive temples. If you want the classical pyramids you'll have to look at Mayas (pre 1000 AC), or Aztecs (post 1000 AC), which are mesoamerican. The Incan Empire (1200/1400 AC) and the civilizations that came before in South America are separated by thousands of kilometers, it's a very different type of culture and visuals. The former are tropically based, the latter live on top of the Andean mountains.

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Alright, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Erzaa

I'm not versed in pre-Columbian American history or the nuances of architecture, so I won't argue. But doesn't Peru have pyramids? That's in South America, not North America.

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People colloquially refer to South American megastructures as pyramids, and everyone would know what you’re talking about if you did, so no worries. Some were pyramids, some were stepped temples (ziggurat), some were “something else, but close enough”.

Pyramid is a lot easier to remember than Ziggurat, that’s for sure!

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Originally Posted by Azureskies01

Seems like troll topics are like 80% of these forums.

SAD!

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it went better for a while, but HE is back. It took 4 years for them to ban him last time... So I guess we're stuck with him until the end of the game, this time.

I thought Ronka could very comfortably be Mesopotamian rather than Mesoamerican. The stylings, especially the clothing, did not look Mesoamerican to me.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I thought Ronka could very comfortably be Mesopotamian rather than Mesoamerican. The stylings, especially the clothing, did not look Mesoamerican to me.

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The whole vibe of "pyramids under the jungle canopy" and use of the stereotypical Nahuatl "tl" sound in local names like Lozatl and Dwatl feels a lot more Mesoamerican than Mesopotamian.


But I think FFXIV is at its best when things are more vaguely inspired by real life places rather than a 1-for-1 like Hingashi is. Everything that could be interesting about Hingashi is taken away by the fact that it's very nearly a carbon copy of Edo-era Japan down to its own history.

While it's nice that we're venturing outside Euro or Japan-centric fantasy for once, I don't want it to be "yeah, this is Mexico but with lizard people" and I hope they get a little more creative in their details.

I don't believe that there is so much a specific culture they are deliberately focusing on; it's just the worlds and locales that they are envision sometimes mirrors the real world, and they've always drawn inspiration from a lot of stuff with their designs.

These of course are factionalized imaginary worlds we are talking about; so it's best to look at a lot of this that way, and probably healthier.

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Originally Posted by Sea-Wolf

After the Indian expansion which is Endwalker...

(Nidhana says hi)

We now have *drum roll*

https://i.ibb.co/rb6Y3j3/new-dawntra...1ymivfseb1.jpg

This is very "Reminscent" in Maya:

https://i.ibb.co/t4bJnbD/1-4-OEq4swt...-IDMo-OIg.webp

I looked through all other Final Fantasy game and I believe this is the first time Maya or Aztec has a Representation in the game.

I would like to see an Africa expansion next, where we can explore Mali, or Ethiopia :o

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They have Aztec references in Stormblood , in The Peaks. other places as well, but I do believe we will see more of it in DT than other previous expansions.

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Originally Posted by 1313

They have Aztec references in Stormblood , in The Peaks. other places as well, but I do believe we will see more of it in DT than other previous expansions.

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Wasn't there a big controversy over the headress that was part of a Stormblood gearset back then? I know I wasn't comfortable wearing it being part native and female a headress would have been highly disrespectful for me to wear. That was a personal choice. I seem to remember there being a pretty big hoohaw about it though.

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Wasn't there a big controversy over the headress that was part of a Stormblood gearset back then? I know I wasn't comfortable wearing it being part native and female a headress would have been highly disrespectful for me to wear. That was a personal choice. I seem to remember there being a pretty big hoohaw about it though.

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I don't recall hearing anything about it, but I was a little sprout back then and rarely read patch notes or anything.

All I'll say is this is probably the end for square enix as far as "real life" locations if their track-record holds true. Future locations will be highly fantastical, to the point of hilariously fantastical like what you'd see in disney/kingdom hearts. After "native america" there's nowhere else to go in their playbook.

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Originally Posted by Rekh

All I'll say is this is probably the end for square enix as far as "real life" locations if their track-record holds true. Future locations will be highly fantastical, to the point of hilariously fantastical like what you'd see in disney/kingdom hearts. After "native america" there's nowhere else to go in their playbook.

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Africa is a place that exists.

Stuff from African cultures shows up in the game as being Meracydian and we haven’t been there yet.

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Originally Posted by Sea-Wolf

After the Indian expansion which is Endwalker...

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Citizens, is this forum inhabitant the one they call Titanman? It wasn't known to me a mere troll would help spread cultural awareness and sensitivity, but it is a pleasant surprise nonetheless.




Fair winds and full sails.

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Originally Posted by Valence

The ones in Rak'tika were clearly mayan pyramids. South american cultures never built pyramids as far as I know, only fortresses.

However some actually quechua names or concepts were sometimes used in Ronka yes, like the riddle construct turning scions into cards after wrong answers being called a Huaca. But most were mesoamerican (like most of the landmarks in the Raktika map).

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Don't spread misinformation. Rak'tika was inspired by ruins in Cambodia and Angkor Wat. For example Koh Ker resembles the pyramids we saw in game. It had nothing to do with America even if it seems like it did.

"The designers drew inspiration from everywhere including different types of textures found on the ground. The Ronkan ruins of the Rak’tika Greatwood were inspired by Angkor Wat in Cambodia and other ruins. For example. Lastly, Kholusia’s design is based on a real-life coast in the UK called The Seven Sisters."

https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...hadowbringers/

It's funny cambodia's brought up; all these tropical regions are all singuarily inspired and connected, just not in the way most think. But they all share a single connection. It would a college level course to explain but feel free to research.

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Africa is a place that exists.

Stuff from African cultures shows up in the game as being Meracydian and we haven’t been there yet.

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The x factor is square enix haha, they're stuck in the 1950s when it comes to viewing the world; allegedly.

https://i.imgflip.com/2lhszu.jpg

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Originally Posted by Myrany

Wasn't there a big controversy over the headress that was part of a Stormblood gearset back then? I know I wasn't comfortable wearing it being part native and female a headress would have been highly disrespectful for me to wear. That was a personal choice. I seem to remember there being a pretty big hoohaw about it though.

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The headdress and gearset you're thinking of is the New World glamour set, which ran afoul of a rather common pitfall—the garments and garb it references have proper cultural significance that SE's replication fails to convey. Thus, even if the effort was well intentioned, it comes across as insensitive or exploitative.

The controversy over it was big enough that the developers commented on it during the first Dawntrail reveal, iirc.

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

The headdress and gearset you're thinking of is the New World glamour set, which ran afoul of a rather common pitfall—the garments and garb it references have proper cultural significance that SE's replication fails to convey. Thus, even if the effort was well intentioned, it comes across as insensitive or exploitative.

The controversy over it was big enough that the developers commented on it during the first Dawntrail reveal, iirc.

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TY for reminding me. Good to know my memory isn't totally shot.

Seekers of Adoulin was the first.

Re: Controversial Wear (Native Headress, etc)

Unfortunately here in Japan there are a lot of X archetype wears Y costume. Most often seen with things like Ninjas, Knights or Pirates in anime. Or more closely to how “holy religions” almost always wear pseudo Christian nun/priest attire. Often the costume itself isn’t really associated with anything beyond this archetype, neglecting culture/values/significance of whatever the costume in question is.

For the “costume” of Native American dress, your average Japanese person doesn’t really think anything beyond “it’s just a thing that people who like being in the wild wear”. So, fantasy RPGs with a “Ranger”, “druid” or other similar nature-based identity will often wear something that screams Native American.

The anime/manga Goblin Slayer is a good example of this:
The Lizardman Priest in Goblin Slayer wears Native American inspired gear. Though arguably more generic/less controversial.
The Dwarven Shamen is from general Japanese monks including Yamabushi (a mountain monk, essentially clothing like a Tengu)
The human priest is essentially a nun.
Etc etc.

Does it make it right? No, no..not at all. Just giving context on the why you can expect to see this, and see the Japanese side not really “getting” or “seeing” the problem until it’s pointed out strongly.

https://www.mundodeportivo.com/alfab...ect_ratio=16:9

There have been bits and pieces I think.

Nice that someone mentioned the New World set. I am from EU so in no way I thought anything but "hey that's cool!" about it. 5 year old me was age appropriate native american culture inspired popculture fan x'3 Maybe the controversy was among the NA player?
Always wanted to make mitra vibe glam out of it for miqote, since they had character wearing war bonnet-esque headdress. The glam is still wip.

https://i.imgur.com/HbQLc8W.jpeg

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Originally Posted by MikkoAkure

Africa is a place that exists.

Stuff from African cultures shows up in the game as being Meracydian and we haven’t been there yet.

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Actually, Banri Oda's track record leads me to believe he might influence Yoship to lead us to Meracydia eventually; he's like the only dev that gets my vote of good work over there. He'd be one to come up with some really interesting lore, like those in Meracydia who are followers of Sophia, Sephirot, and Zurvan.

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Originally Posted by Sea-Wolf

After the Indian expansion which is Endwalker...

(Nidhana says hi)

We now have *drum roll*

https://i.ibb.co/rb6Y3j3/new-dawntra...1ymivfseb1.jpg

This is very "Reminscent" in Maya:

https://i.ibb.co/t4bJnbD/1-4-OEq4swt...-IDMo-OIg.webp

I looked through all other Final Fantasy game and I believe this is the first time Maya or Aztec has a Representation in the game.

I would like to see an Africa expansion next, where we can explore Mali, or Ethiopia :o

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ik this is a troll, but im actually hyped. i love mayan history and mythology

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Don't spread misinformation. Rak'tika was inspired by ruins in Cambodia and Angkor Wat. For example Koh Ker resembles the pyramids we saw in game. It had nothing to do with America even if it seems like it did.

"The designers drew inspiration from everywhere including different types of textures found on the ground. The Ronkan ruins of the Rak’tika Greatwood were inspired by Angkor Wat in Cambodia and other ruins. For example. Lastly, Kholusia’s design is based on a real-life coast in the UK called The Seven Sisters."

https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...hadowbringers/

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Good to know. The very nahuatl naming scheme is very misleading since nahuatl is, after all, very much mesoamerican, and not indochinese.

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Originally Posted by WeebPolice

Citizens, is this forum inhabitant the one they call Titanman?

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Yeah it's him lmao.

its so close now i hope they do s.a justice

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

its so close now i hope they do s.a justice

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In what ways?

I felt thavnair was a very poor imitation of india/indian culture. If that's the level they're going for with south america it'll just be south american in name only with a few obscure landmarks that amount to nothing important in the game. Nothing india-related amounted to anything meaningful in thavnair.

But maybe south america gets the othard treatment where the culture there was actually a key component to stormblood. I doubt it though. It'll most likely all amount to "mamool ja this and that" with some offhand reference to mountain people.

PS. They won't wait to quickly switch us from the south america areas to the cyberpunk area early on. That's the area that will get a lot of lore, screen time, and overall development.

tbh with you I always think the venu bird people are based around native americans I mean they talk in a similar fashion with totems

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Originally Posted by kaynide

Re: Controversial Wear (Native Headress, etc)

Unfortunately here in Japan there are a lot of X archetype wears Y costume. Most often seen with things like Ninjas, Knights or Pirates in anime. Or more closely to how “holy religions” almost always wear pseudo Christian nun/priest attire. Often the costume itself isn’t really associated with anything beyond this archetype, neglecting culture/values/significance of whatever the costume in question is.

For the “costume” of Native American dress, your average Japanese person doesn’t really think anything beyond “it’s just a thing that people who like being in the wild wear”. So, fantasy RPGs with a “Ranger”, “druid” or other similar nature-based identity will often wear something that screams Native American.

The anime/manga Goblin Slayer is a good example of this:
The Lizardman Priest in Goblin Slayer wears Native American inspired gear. Though arguably more generic/less controversial.
The Dwarven Shamen is from general Japanese monks including Yamabushi (a mountain monk, essentially clothing like a Tengu)
The human priest is essentially a nun.
Etc etc.

Does it make it right? No, no..not at all. Just giving context on the why you can expect to see this, and see the Japanese side not really “getting” or “seeing” the problem until it’s pointed out strongly.

https://www.mundodeportivo.com/alfab...ect_ratio=16:9

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That’s because Culutural appropriation is a concept conceived of in the US. In most of Asia what we would view as problematic appropriation is viewed as APPRECIATING and EMBRACING their culture. In fact in China you can become “Han” by fully immersing and embracing their culture and lifestyle even if you are not racially Chinese.

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Originally Posted by KitiaraIornsight

That’s because Culutural appropriation is a concept conceived of in the US. In most of Asia what we would view as problematic appropriation is viewed as APPRECIATING and EMBRACING their culture. In fact in China you can become “Han” by fully immersing and embracing their culture and lifestyle even if you are not racially Chinese.

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Yeeaaaah nah; The Japanese get pretty upset when stuff from Japan is explained or used incorrectly.

Like the pajama “kimono” from whatever brand. The Sekigahara riflemen are pretty pissed off at Ubisoft as we speak over Assassins Creed.

I remember the Koreans getting pretty mad at the Chinese during that Olympics over wearing what (they said) was traditional Korean attire.

Everybody does it, but nobody seems to really care until it’s their stuff being copied.

Most cultures/companies just don’t think to check in the first place because they run on assumptions.

LA HEE area is maya for sure

I think the biggest issue here, as with the New World garb, is simple cultural oversensivity while completely failing to consider the initial motivations for implementation in the first place. People forget that there are actually aspects of their culture that are actually REALLY beautiful to others. A Chinese dress. An Indian ceremonial headdress. That sexy dancing salsa dress that’s usually red and twirls during some passionate dancing. Pyramids, shrines, temples. The list goes on.

Do SE artists draw inspiration from these things? Yes. Because they’re exotic. Because they’re off the beaten path. Elements that are refreshingly exciting in themselves, imaginative because we don’t get to see em everyday, and they’re interwoven into rpgic aspects to make the journey more believable, yet equally fanciful. So individual who IMMEDIATELY go in the polar opposite direction and say “How DARE you insensitivity drag aspects of my culture in here without proper respect!”. . .I fear. . .are missing the sentiment behind doing such in the first place. It’s not ment to be rude, it’s . . .actually pretty wonderful.

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Originally Posted by Ath192

Don't spread misinformation. Rak'tika was inspired by ruins in Cambodia and Angkor Wat. For example Koh Ker resembles the pyramids we saw in game. It had nothing to do with America even if it seems like it did.

"The designers drew inspiration from everywhere including different types of textures found on the ground. The Ronkan ruins of the Rak’tika Greatwood were inspired by Angkor Wat in Cambodia and other ruins. For example. Lastly, Kholusia’s design is based on a real-life coast in the UK called The Seven Sisters."

https://www.siliconera.com/final-fan...hadowbringers/

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thaaaaaaaaanks! i was about to put the same ! seems some here dont know anything outside their own continent , i almost immediately noticed the architecture being very similar to SEA , the ruins from Cambodia being the ones that resemble almost to a perfect point to the ones in Bunny Land