NIN Huton Feedback

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• :) Offensive wind ninjutsu
• :o No more awkwardness when cutscene/untargetable/death causes Huton to drop (Huraijin was a good try)
• :D No more pain burning a ninjutsu to reapply Huton in lvl 50 content

NIN eats good for another expansion :cool:

Eh as someone who used to be a nin main, i don't like that the buff is just another trait. Doesn't really feel like anything. On top of that the ninjitsu is only "wind" in aesthetic without actual elemental affinities or some kind of ability behind it. Just another button for another attack in a rotation.

Yeah that's what 50 content needed, fewer buttons to press.

They gave me a new jutsu
Didn’t take hit on away
New management
So far not bad but I do worry that the new gauge is going to be bland in comparison if it’s just hey you should use armor crush and then hey you should us AE that’s lame

Good change, wonder what, if anything, they will do with hurajin?

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Originally Posted by Vatom

They gave me a new jutsu
Didn’t take hit on away
New management
So far not bad but I do worry that the new gauge is going to be bland in comparison if it’s just hey you should use armor crush and then hey you should us AE that’s lame

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It honestly probably has more nuanced application then maintaining Huton because now you'll probably want to be entering burst phases with as many kunai as possible where as before you'd just want to have enough remaining duration to not have to Armor Crush during a burst.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Yeah that's what 50 content needed, fewer buttons to press.

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its 1 less press
you just raiton more

I will miss the transformation macro I made...

Huton, swap to a 'naked' outfit while the wind is going to see the silhouette, swap to the real outfit just before the wind ends.

Huton becomes AoE Suiton, that's the entire change.

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Originally Posted by vetch

Yeah that's what 50 content needed, fewer buttons to press.

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It won't make it more boring if that's what you fear. Busywork can't improve anything, especially not something devoid of interest in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

the new gauge is going to be bland in comparison if it’s just hey you should use armor crush and then hey you should us AE that’s lame

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The old gauge was already that

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Originally Posted by Duskane

its 1 less press
you just raiton more

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And never have to think about how to spend a resource. Less thinking isn't a good change.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

It won't make it more boring if that's what you fear. Busywork can't improve anything, especially not something devoid of interest in the first place.

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I don't respect your opinion and wielding the word 'busywork' like a talisman won't add engagement or decision-making back to 50 NIN. 'Busywork' is what people always crow about when systems that they personally dislike are removed, but the accumulated effect is that the MSQ is now miserably gameplay-free for the first 200 hours.

The whole point of a videogame is to confront the player with artificial systems to navigate.

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Originally Posted by vetch

I don't respect your opinion and wielding the word 'busywork' like a talisman won't add engagement or decision-making back to 50 NIN. 'Busywork' is what people always crow about when systems that they personally dislike are removed, but the accumulated effect is that the MSQ is now miserably gameplay-free for the first 200 hours.

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That's because all fights follow simple scripts that we have done a thousand times over. The number of different buttons we have to press can't possibly change that, the game's very design philosophy renders it unable to present any engaging combat gameplay.

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The whole point of a videogame is to confront the player with artificial systems to navigate.

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Yeah, and FFXIV is pretty bad at creating artificial systems that are interesting to navigate.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

That's because all fights follow simple scripts that we have done a thousand times over. The number of different buttons we have to press can't possibly change that, the game's very design philosophy renders it unable to present any engaging combat gameplay.



Yeah, and FFXIV is pretty bad at creating artificial systems that are interesting to navigate.

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But enough talk about normals!

I'm happy that it will hopefully be somewhat balanced at the beginning of the expansion . From what we've seen everything looks like flashier upgrades or replacements to existing abilities and doesn't seem like our main expansion ability will alter the rotation like TCJ, Bunshin and Raiju did . No waiting till X.08/X.1 to balance and fix NIN for old Trick Attacks balancing issues .

Once upon a time I would've argued against hutons removal but a system that just increases gcd is just a outdated design that added nothing to its core gameplay loop other then something to maintain during downtime . We'll still have to maintain our mudras, ninki and now balance kunia which will probably be used for Aeolian Edge and I'm guessing Raijus . Honestly it's only a 20 potency difference between AE and AC now, stacking one to increase the other sounds way better in design then just maintaining a timer .

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

That's because all fights follow simple scripts that we have done a thousand times over. The number of different buttons we have to press can't possibly change that, the game's very design philosophy renders it unable to present any engaging combat gameplay.

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No, having more things to practice and master is something they can do to stop things getting stale. A gameplay loop that asks for softskill practice and decision-making makes even faceroll content more interesting.

It's specifically the FF14 developers that don't realize this -- every other bigtime MMO from WoW to GW2 to Warframe figured out that you can shore up weak combat content by making the kits themselves fun to operate, whether that be done through skill interactions or great-feeling movement or in-depth upgrade crafting or satisfying weapon play, and that these hooks can start working on the player from level one.

FF14 just... doesn't attempt any of that sort of fun and instead relies on its MSQ, visual spectacle, and encounter design to sustain interest, so when that content falters, the game falters.

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Yeah, and FFXIV is pretty bad at creating artificial systems that are interesting to navigate.

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That's because interesting systems aren't the product of repeatable mechanical templates like Limit Cut, but rather arise from the interplay of many little optimizable elements like resource management and positioning that have been ruthlessly purged from FF14 over the last decade.

if they're getting rid of Huton can they at least bring back pre-ShB Shadow Fang or something please? I'm not exactly stoked at the prospect of having another bank and spend gauge.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

The old gauge was already that

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So wouldn’t I be happy if it’s different….? I don’t get your implication here.

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Originally Posted by vetch

It's specifically the FF14 developers that don't realize this -- every other bigtime MMO from WoW to GW2 to Warframe figured out that you can shore up weak combat content by making the kits themselves fun to operate,

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The pve in these games is just as weak as ffxiv's. The only good experience i ever had in WoW was pvp. I don't remember sticking to warframe or gw2 long enough to get to try the pvp there, if they even have any.

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Originally Posted by Taliriah

That's because all fights follow simple scripts that we have done a thousand times over. The number of different buttons we have to press can't possibly change that, the game's very design philosophy renders it unable to present any engaging combat gameplay.

Yeah, and FFXIV is pretty bad at creating artificial systems that are interesting to navigate.

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The irony here is that I generally agree with this statement and even your comments about how the other MMO's didn't keep my attention either. That said the ability they took away was essentially haste. The took away, the only unique ability NIN had. It gave flavor to the class and it gave you something to actually work towards in keeping it up to maximize your damage. Admittedly in EW this became insanely basic compared to ShB where it felt more engaging, but getting rid of it and adding it as a trait literally does nothing.

Saying that their combat design is bad doesn't actually critique the issue in a way that provides any meaningful path forward. And removing the ability and labeling it "busy work" as opposed to a unique design choice (which we are losing more and more of these days) which just needed to be dialed back was DEFINITELY not the answer. I mean the busy work at the very least is more fun than mind numbingly doing the same rotation over and over and over with every action you do either just being "damage button", "defense buff button", and "heal button" with 90% of the time pressing "damage button" which has almost no real variance just aesthetics.

Again I understand not being stoked with the combat, believe me i'm not either but supporting them making it more butchered seems so odd. Wouldn't you want them to ADD to the ability? Wouldn't you want them to ADD to the jobs uniqueness? Aren't you bored of them doing less? I mean ffs if that's busy work then why not just make the game an auto play with micro transactions and a Habbo Hotel crossover since the "endgame" is already glam (the word even) and housing. Not everyone wants a braindead experience and things like that were actually helping alleviate the issue. And now that its a trait what REALLY makes it any different from Viper which is just another fast attacking job. Buttons are gonna be stackable, so you better believe each ability is getting its own stack, so its not like we will need to memorize the presses anymore. In fact mark my words. Since they have homogenized more, adding the stacking is going to make people realize the issue probably twice as much as they did before.

Anyways no hate towards you, just passion.

Ok, that's yet another layer being removed. Can I at least have my ST DoT back then? No?

Screw this.

''NIN eats good for another expansion'' Yeah about that...

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Originally Posted by Mecia

''NIN eats good for another expansion'' Yeah about that...

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Yeah, what about that...?

The only new ability I noticed in the job trailer was the Ten-chi-jin "finisher", and everything else seems to just be potency upgrades on existing abilities like Hellfrog/Bhavacakra, Mug, Fan of Knives, etc.

Would be nice if they got something that actually changes up their rotation on a more fundamental level like forked/fleeting raiju.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Fan of Knives

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I assume you mean Death blossom? If so in the trailer it's not an upgrade to death blossom it's a new skill. Considering the nin use it right after bunshin, if it were a regular WS the clone would copy it with a delay. You can also count 5 regular WS replicated by the clone afterward. The animation seems to imply it's another skill unlocked by bunshin.

Doesn't change your point though, since it would just be another skill like phantom kamaitachi to use after bunshin.

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

I assume you mean Death blossom? If so in the trailer it's not an upgrade to death blossom it's a new skill. Considering the nin use it right after bunshin, if it were a regular WS the clone would copy it with a delay. You can also count 5 regular WS replicated by the clone afterward. The animation seems to imply it's another skill unlocked by bunshin.

Doesn't change your point though, since it would just be another skill like phantom kamaitachi to use after bunshin.

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It's probably just a AoE version of TA ( either upgrade or replacement ) as an adjustment to the new AoE Huton , my other guess is a AoE DwaD but unlikely .

@Most likely Bunshin was used just to build enough ninki to show off the new upgraded Bhav and Hellfrog with nothing new directly tied to it

You're actually happy with nin turning into an off brand monk? The most boring job of the game? With that change for the sake of casualization armor crush just became leaden fists.

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

You're actually happy with nin turning into an off brand monk? The most boring job of the game? With that change for the sake of casualization armor crush just became leaden fists.

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Ignoring the hyperbole, yes, I'm actually happy with what we've seen of NIN so far! Sorry! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

You're actually happy with nin turning into an off brand monk? The most boring job of the game? With that change for the sake of casualization armor crush just became leaden fists.

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Huton/Armor Crush as of now is neither deep or engaging and adds NOTHING to the rotation , it's just filler ... meaningless busy work . If my assumption that the kunia effects Raijus as well as Aeolion edge is correct , you'll have to balance and line it with Bunshin stacks to get the most of your weapon skills during burst which it'll add another layer to increase your damage . I'm personally excited for it

remove all busywork all the way down to ROG lvl 1
NIN at it's purest state

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

remove all busywork all the way down to ROG lvl 1
NIN at it's purest state

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Naw that's too busy. Make the game autoplay. The endgame is "glam" *swooshes hair* remember?

Guessing Huraijin will be removed, unless they want to transform it into some Dot or combo ender... And we've already lost Mutilate and Shadow Fang, and still have Aeolian Edge and Armor Crush- and Armor Crush's traits will need to be tweaked too. I'm relaxing in bed or I'd watch a video to see if Huraijin's animation was in the Jobs Trailer.

I like them adjusting Ninja in this way. I didn't like it when they removed ten second from our maximum Huton length, so this feels like a logical next step to making it better. I'll be happy to no longer be forced to waste a Ninjutsu charge for Huton sub54 when I would rather Armor Crush.

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Originally Posted by Ilyn

It's probably just a AoE version of TA ( either upgrade or replacement ) as an adjustment to the new AoE Huton , my other guess is a AoE DwaD but unlikely .

@Most likely Bunshin was used just to build enough ninki to show off the new upgraded Bhav and Hellfrog with nothing new directly tied to it

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I didn't consider TA, but seeing how they use it after the new huton it could be a possibility. I thought it could be an upgrade to DwaD but ultimately the animation kinda make me feel it's just a new WS to use after bunshin. In the trailer you see one nin in the air throwing the exploding kunais then another one quickly pop on the ground, do a couple of breakdancing steps and goes away. So it feels bunshin related, but maybe it's just a weird animation choice.

Ninja before
Prepull huton and use hide
2 AE 1 AC

Ninja now
No need for that annoying prepull
2AE 1 AC

Man I can't believe they ruined ninja.

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Originally Posted by Sesera

Ninja before
Prepull huton and use hide
2 AE 1 AC

Ninja now
No need for that annoying prepull
2AE 1 AC

Man I can't believe they ruined ninja.

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Apparently the whole depth of the nin came from looking at a timer outside of burst windows to check if it was under 30 seconds.
Oh that and the intense lvl50 gameplay where once every minute you had to press one extra mudra to turn your raiton into a huton...

It's been the same for every single expansion, some people like complaining over the most insignificant things.

I didn't mind maintaining the buff, but I sure as hell hated applying it. I would have preferred applying it during combat so long as it did damage. It was having to cast it pre pull that drove me batty. The change is a happy medium for me.