Can we move the PvP guys over to the PvE side of things?

Going out of my comfort zone and actually trying PvP, I have to say... wow, PvP actually has the tanks feel different from one another, having Dark Knight actually consuming it's own HP like it does in the previous games was so unexpected, it actually gave the job it's, for the lack of a better word, identity that it's been missing from PvE.

So can we actually hire these guys on for PvE job design, Square? Please?

One of the main reasons why I started posting here was to gush about how the jobs play in pvp, and how I want those mechanics to transfer over to pve. it's a bummer that we likely won't see any drastic job changes until 8.0. Gonna continue yearning for walking casts.

"But we couldn't release 3 ultimates per expansion if we did that!"
I bet a billion gil that would be their answer.

One of the things they feel proudest about is that "any job can clear ultimates." Very easy to do that when all jobs in each role play roughly the same with the same windows and whatever.

For the topic itself, yeah; just have a pve (casual) mode which uses pvp-like class skills/mechanics and pve (hardcore) for ultimates/savage.

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Originally Posted by AlucaDragonheart

Going out of my comfort zone and actually trying PvP, I have to say... wow, PvP actually has the tanks feel different from one another, having Dark Knight actually consuming it's own HP like it does in the previous games was so unexpected, it actually gave the job it's, for the lack of a better word, identity that it's been missing from PvE.

So can we actually hire these guys on for PvE job design, Square? Please?

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omg thankyou somebody else who feels this way

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Originally Posted by Rekh

For the topic itself, yeah; just have a pve (casual) mode which uses pvp-like class skills/mechanics.

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Honestly, this is what I kinda had hoped they would do for something like the most recent deep dungeon.
Just one piece of PVE content where we don't use the same combat system as in all the other places. And DD is self-contained and could easily support this without going meta-breaking.

Yeah that's what many people have been saying. Obviously pvp and pve are two very different beasts and translating them 1:1 into the other would make no sense, but the general gist of it is that pvp jobs have crazy identity and flavour compared to pve. I actually secretly expected that the lvl100 skills for dawntrail would be similar to pvp LBs and unique to their jobs. Much copium was had.

I agree, I am happy to see other people liking the pvp job design more.

These days I spend 95% of my game time in PvP. I mean it with every fiber of my being when I say that playing back-to-back Frontlines has been more enjoyable than any of the savage prog I've done in ShB/EW, and I owe it solely to how the jobs are designed. I know some parts of the job kits are contentious among the community (like SAM's Zantetsuken, PLD's Cover and DRK's Salted Earth), but I appreciate that the PvP team is willing to take risks for the sake of class identity, and that's enough to put it ahead of PvE for me. I am most likely going to stay a PvP main for the rest of my time here unless the PvE side of the game gets a massive shake-up.

19 jobs that I'd be more than happy to experience and play in PvP.

19 jobs that I have very little interest or motivation to play in PvE.

Pvp kits are good for PvP, however, they aren't going to translate into PvE at all. As an exercise, take a job from PvP and think about how that kit would work in a PvE setting, expand it into a more fleshed out job if you want, and see what you end up with. Keep in mind that things like WHM's Miracle of Nature or BLM's night wing, among other things, aren't going to be useful in a PvE setting.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Pvp kits are good for PvP, however, they aren't going to translate into PvE at all. As an exercise, take a job from PvP and think about how that kit would work in a PvE setting, expand it into a more fleshed out job if you want, and see what you end up with. Keep in mind that things like WHM's Miracle of Nature or BLM's night wing, among other things, aren't going to be useful in a PvE setting.

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As much as I love the PvP kits, I've sadly concluded that it just wouldn't work. One could argue that encounter design could be changed so that it expects crowd control actions like Night Wing, Miracle of Nature and Contradance. The likelyhood of that happening is as good as zero, of course, but even if CBU3 were willing to go to that extreme, the real issue is that it would still fail because the community has become so... I don't even know the word for this.. but they will complain at the slightest inconvenience--especially if it gets in the way of their beloved parse.

Take PvP Wyrmwind Thrust for example: the damage grows bigger the further you are from the target. People will inevitably complain about needing to track autos so that they don't miss a swing while out of range, and then ask for it to be removed. People will ask why DRK needs to drain HP to do damage when no one else has to risk their lives; the end result is homogenisation. AST's random cards? We all know how that story ends.

There's no way I can visualise being allowed to have an interesting kit in a game where people STILL take issue with things as basic as positionals and randomness. And timers too, apparently. Can't have shit around here

The old shadowbringer kits would have been sick in pve though...

changing who are the ones working on pve or pvp won't change anything, it's a specific design choice they could do a whole expansion and do nothing but touch jobs but if they dont change how they want them to work and be nothing will actually ever change.

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Originally Posted by Silhart

As much as I love the PvP kits, I've sadly concluded that it just wouldn't work. One could argue that encounter design could be changed so that it expects crowd control actions like Night Wing, Miracle of Nature and Contradance. The likelyhood of that happening is as good as zero, of course, but even if CBU3 were willing to go to that extreme, the real issue is that it would still fail because the community has become so... I don't even know the word for this.. but they will complain at the slightest inconvenience--especially if it gets in the way of their beloved parse.

Take PvP Wyrmwind Thrust for example: the damage grows bigger the further you are from the target. People will inevitably complain about needing to track autos so that they don't miss a swing while out of range, and then ask for it to be removed. People will ask why DRK needs to drain HP to do damage when no one else has to risk their lives; the end result is homogenisation. AST's random cards? We all know how that story ends.

There's no way I can visualise being allowed to have an interesting kit in a game where people STILL take issue with things as basic as positionals and randomness. And timers too, apparently. Can't have shit around here

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Lol, l ran into new dk in pvp from time to time. They would spam shadowbringer and insta melt themselves. Imagine that in a dungeon

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Originally Posted by Eastwall

Lol, l ran into new dk in pvp from time to time. They would spam shadowbringer and insta melt themselves. Imagine that in a dungeon

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Allow players to fail and let them learn from their mistakes.

Dark Knight being able to use hp in pve would be sick. Give something for healers to do in these dungeons

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Originally Posted by OliviaLugria

Dark Knight being able to use hp in pve would be sick. Give something for healers to do in these dungeons

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That was my thoughts exactly. I expected someone to say "Yeah but then that would cause too much stress on the healers!" To which I would say good, it's what their role is meant to do instead of just 11111111111'ing and occasionally 2'ing or 3'ing for the rest of the dungeon.

Reducing stress
Improving ease of use/usability

All buzzwords used in every PLL since ShB. You can count them, it's actually amusing.