The devs look foolish for NOT removing Resurrection/Verraise from SMN and RDM

It's such a joke, how you were finally apparently considering to finally get rid of this feature that causes an eternal imbalance of casters, even at the optimal chance when a new caster is introduced. BUT you just decide that removing Resurrection on SMN (and Verraise on RDM for that matter) was not a good time now? What is going to change in 2 years that will make you change your decision? Just do it!

It's an actual joke that you think that removing resurrection from SMN "is against the identity of SMN". You know what SMN's identity is? Summoning monsters, not resurrecting people. And technically, if you cared so much about such small details in the identity of jobs, what about Paladin? Why doesn't Paladin have a Raise?

SE has constantly removed small pieces of identities from jobs over the years in pursuit to contest the meta (Their biggest sin is DRK in StB). The biggest change that you could make to help your attempt to fight class imbalance in the meta, is to remove the raises from SMN and RDM. Or if you're so insanely desperate to keep it, turn it into a role skill with 0 MP cost but a 3 minute cooldown and 5s cast time. Because that's really what it really should be, a singular attempt at rescuing an attempt, not a slave for raising.

Casters are not healers, as such they should not be capable of repeatedly raising, or raising at all.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

Casters are not healers, as such they should not be capable of repeatedly raising, or raising at all.

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with this logic rdm shouldnt have vercure either.

I think this is one of the dumbest things to complain about, tbh.

The degree of support magic is one of the few things that are preventing those three casters from all feeling like the same variations on "blast em with fire." In a game without elemental affinity there are far fewer axes to differentiate mages on.

RDM especially needs all its support magic to feel at all like a hybrid of BL/WH magic. And there is nothing wrong with SMN having a clutch raise in its pocket.

Why should they be foolish?
Keep it (yet) is nice. They can support healers, when a lot of player died or, when the healer is going to the ground.
In my eyes should there be more classes with ress option. Instant of less classes (or make phoenix feather buyable and useable in a fight). It make it easier for the healers. And make it less important, that the group fails, because 1-2 people maked mistakes (leaded once to a wipe, because i forgot, that i had ress as a Red mage).

I dunno. Certainly sounds like a mountain out of a molehill to me.

I've always appreciated having Resurrection. In ideal scenarios, Summoners and Red Mages aren't bringing damage to the table in the same vein as Black Mage. As for Pictomancer, it's far too early to tell, but given it seems to have a proclivity for buffing they are likely going to bring their own useful niche to encounters that will make up for what I assume will be their lower-end damage, yet still not having a rez ability.

Point is, if you took Resurrection and Verrraise away from their respective classes, you'd need to either tweak their damage to be more in line with Black Mage or give them some other kind of utility to warrant their existence.

I don't really care about the devs looking foolish. I DO care about Summoner having a single mote of potential for fun and enjoyment, and if you take Resurrection away then that mote is gone.

EW SMN gameplay is pure ass -- being able to save runs with clutch rezzes is the only thing the job has going for it over any other.

I'm in favor of them being removed from both completely but as others said here atm both jobs are kinda drowning in tears of their players, so I can see them being kept as an 1min oGCD down in the line, maybe as a role action for all casters. That way they can still have their rezz utility without being throw around as a backup healer. I know some people like the rez mage fantasy but really that is only punishing on themselfs, people dying and having 3 potential rezzers to pick them back up doesn't make them learn the mechanics faster. Bonus points if they died right before a body check comes up and we're on burst phase >.>

Rdm in other ffs was always using a mix of different kinds of magics (mostly white and black, but there are exception) trading access to higher tier spells for a bigger utility. In xiv in particular it still follows this same principle in lore, with an added bonus of fencing skills. Problem is, other than rezzing the only utility spell we have atm is like Expedient on Scholar, bard buffs, pictomancer is getting party buffs when it comes. . Protect, shell, stoneskin and stuff were removed from base jobs and are now only present in Bozja.

So rdm is in a state where, other than which verdamage color you pick (since we don't even have dots on thunder and aero) the only job fantasy on casting side is on rezz, cure and magick barrier because all other forms of utility are not even present anymore other than a specific scenario. Remove them, and we gut job fantasy even further (because rez mage was never its real fantasy, sorry not sorry) and homogenize but we don't have anything else going rn. And this is not even touching on the healer side of it, otherwise I would yapp even further.

There are only 3 casters, soon to be 4, one is going to be bottom of the barrel when it comes to damage. 1 is the producer job, 1 was reworked for people who don't like it and are doubling down on the rework, 1 is the job they're trying to sell in the new expansion and 1 is red mage

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

Casters are not healers, as such they should not be capable of repeatedly raising, or raising at all.

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Healers are casters, so your statement makes no sense.
And even if one tries to untangle what you may have meant, there is no fundamental reason why non-healer roles can't have some healer tools, just like healers have some damage-dealing tools despite not being a dps role.

If anything they should double down on job specific revival skills just so they are so abundand and you won't feel the need to bring that one caster to your team composition in the first place. Summoner can summon the eidolon of rebirth, Paladin has defensive holy magicks and Monks usually can use their Chakra enlightenment to get things flowing again.

But yeah I agree, Ressurection and Physick needs to finally go and from the ashes, they should get phoenix resurrection already

As I have repeated in various posts, you can remove the ress from both smn and rdm, however they will be played much more than blm because even if you watch netflix on one side and prime video on the other, you can play them without penalty. Unfortunately the caster class has 3 jobs where 2 of them: one is highly mobile and simplistic, the other is embarrassingly powerful for a single instant cast button spam and should be a class limited to roulette only.

RDM main here, if they removed my Verraise I would rage quit, lol. One of the reasons why I love RDM is because I can save my clumsy PUGs from wipes without having to play a boring healer!

is it wrong to say i was waiting for this to pop up again? every time an expansion shows the jobs this topic always shows up?

RDM has had access to healing magic from straight up the very first game in the series, this is like saying "casters don't wield swords" (another thing RDM has done since, literally, FF1)

while i can see the argument for removing res from summoner as its just a relict of a bygone age and just a vestige of arcanist, removing verraise is dumb its part of rdms core identity

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

And technically, if you cared so much about such small details in the identity of jobs, what about Paladin? Why doesn't Paladin have a Raise?

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Good question since its one of Cecil's spells he learns at level 40.

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Originally Posted by Zzzlol94

SE has constantly removed small pieces of identities from jobs over the years in pursuit to contest the meta (Their biggest sin is DRK in StB). The biggest change that you could make to help your attempt to fight class imbalance in the meta, is to remove the raises from SMN and RDM.

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You don't like them removing aspects of jobs but you want them to remove aspects of job? This just seems self-destructive. Especially since red mage has always been a job since its inception 1987 as one who can use both white and black magic, especially with the raise spell.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

Good question since its one of Cecil's spells he learns at level 40.

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That depends on which Cecil you're talking about. :p

Did someone force you to play RDM/SMN instead of BLM during prog or what's the cause for this intense hatred for the other casters having a raise? If not then why are you so upset over jobs that you don't play? Do you want to play other jobs but don't want the 'I have to raise'? Just communicate with your static's healers...

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

That depends on which Cecil you're talking about. :p

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Fair lol, meant his paladin self.

Foolish? Your argument is the most immature thing ever lol...

You are arguing for removing the uniqueness of jobs for the sake of "balance", aka, "Please, it's not fair that other jobs have what I don't daddy please fix"

You don't even play the jobs you are talking about lmao XD just another jealous black mage. There is no need for every caster to be the same, would be boring.

EDIT: Also "Casters are not healers"... eh yes they are lmao? Summoner and Red mage have ALWAYS had res and heals. Just because you play BLM and only care about unga bunga damage doesn't mean every caster should be the same. There is 0 reason to remove support skills from those jobs and everyone arguing for it are either 1) jelly blackmages or 2) red mages who rather play something else with higher dps but are to lazy to actually go play it.

They did say they were considering removing res from SMN but that's only because of PICTO coming in. PICTO will be support oriented and SMN will become more damage oriented than PICTO is. Damage will go BLM > SMN > PIC > RDM likely, so it would make less sense for SMN to keep it's res. Red mage? Yeah res isn't going away or limited anytime soon, thankfully.

I think if they take my verraise from me, ill just stop playing lol

Its a mix of black and white mage - if anything it needs at least one more heal, aoe hot or something...

I will never understand why casters having Raise is a problem. But then, I already don't understand why "rez tax" is a thing. It's punishing enough to have to spend the cooldowns and mana on the rez, which means you're not dealing damage. RDM dealing a lot less damage because it can chain rez just means it's relegated to being a prog-only job because the moment your static learns the fight, you just take a BLM instead.

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Originally Posted by PercibelTheren

I will never understand why casters having Raise is a problem. But then, I already don't understand why "rez tax" is a thing. It's punishing enough to have to spend the cooldowns and mana on the rez, which means you're not dealing damage. RDM dealing a lot less damage because it can chain rez just means it's relegated to being a prog-only job because the moment your static learns the fight, you just take a BLM instead.

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Yeah. I can't help feel like the same people who would complain about some casters having a rez are also the kind of people who would yell at me in an instance when I'm on SMN for not rezzing someone because their Swiftcast is on cooldown or something.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

I think if they take my verraise from me, ill just stop playing lol

Its a mix of black and white mage - if anything it needs at least one more heal, aoe hot or something...

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Please no, remove heals from nonhealer jobs entirely. Warrior's shake it off already invalidates the healer role to some degree. We don't need more people taking our role when we have barely much to answer in the first place. Raise is fine, that is a whole different thing, but leave healing to the actual healers lel.

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Originally Posted by Katish

Please no, remove heals from nonhealer jobs entirely. Warrior's shake it off already invalidates the healer role to some degree. We don't need more people taking our role when we have barely much to answer in the first place. Raise is fine, that is a whole different thing, but leave healing to the actual healers lel.

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do not touch my warrior...I want my unga to bunga for eternity with and without healer

although not sure how they will remove the skill as it comes from level 12 arcanist, Unless they add a Trait that turns Raise into an offensive/utility skill or, push resurrection for scholar to level 30+ so sch will not be able o resurrect in sastasha

DPS res should be changed to only function as a preventative. As in it should function like excog and be applied *before* lethal damage is taken.

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Originally Posted by Axxion

is it wrong to say i was waiting for this to pop up again? every time an expansion shows the jobs this topic always shows up?

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Well, I mean, Yoshida is the one that brings it up every expansion. Maybe that why this continue to pop up every time. Or maybe we can't react to what the FFXIV team says.

I feel like it's just a bit at this point.

Verraise is an important part of RDM. Summoner is dead to me now since Endwalker so I don't care if they take it away from that.

This is sadly one of these devs vs players. Where not very skilled or even skilled at all players are clinging to a skill that They THINK is helping them. Sure. Let's go into dead ends and res the dead party on the first boss. Then again, and again. Your dps is in the toilet and your rotation miss aligned, all the sup have brink of death (watch that get removed now) and the dng takes 5 minutes more

But what's that I hear you say
"oh my god, its just 5 minutes of you're time more I'm asking! You can spare that Right!" It's not just you asking it. Its every party in there and every time it happens someone else is asking for me to res spam. I might aswell have played healer now.

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Originally Posted by Ianmaru

with this logic rdm shouldnt have vercure either.

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It shouldn't have a raise.

I feel that subtracting Verraise from the RDM takes away a lot of their personality, but I agree with the structural problems that caster raise causes.

In my eyes, a sensible solution would be to just make it very situational and give a 180s recast time. This way it becomes more of a job perk rather than a defining identity element that ends up being problematic.

Summoner's Ressurection could get a similar treatment of 180s recast, with the caveat that is only available during the Phoenix phase.

Feels good knowing I'm going to win no matter what happens.

If raise sticks around I will continue to be indispensable for prog and the savior of casual parties everywhere.

If raise gets removed I'll be doing black mage damage with ranged mobility and a literal one button rotation.

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Originally Posted by CNitsah

Well, I mean, Yoshida is the one that brings it up every expansion. Maybe that why this continue to pop up every time. Or maybe we can't react to what the FFXIV team says.

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I understand that , however by the same person though? the op brings this up every expansion and leaves. Notice that the op never came back to the topic.

I want them to address the SMN RDM vs BLM and now PIC problem. I hope they talk about it in the next live letter. There are no other roles like caster... PIC looks like a very fun job, and groups are likely going to ask their casters to play SMN or RDM because Rez is strong utility. This puts PIC in a weird spot at the beginning of the expansion, as many people are going to want to play the job, until most people go back to their "mains".

I'm fine with SMN and RDM having Rez, but there honestly needs to have some kind of limitation. Maybe put it on a 10 minute CD or something.

No other job deals with this weird disparity between jobs. Imagine if the other roles were divided like this? Maybe jobs like NIN, DRG, and RPR provided some buff that helped a group progress further into the fight, while MNK, SAM, and VPR were more of the pure DPS jobs and were capable of dealing 10% more damage.