I got a question! (PLD)

Why do PLD still have clemency? I mean is there an equivalent to that with other tanks and if not why do they still have this button. Also can be said for shield bash but I’ll leave the focus to the former.

Flavor and sustainability are the two most likely candidates. They are a paladin after all, they should be able to heal themselves somewhat.

It's both on the GCD and breaks it, so it isn't really meant to be something you can use freely, it's meant to be something to fall back on if you need it.

As for shield bash...I fall under the assumption it's only survived this long because of Deep Dungeon.

Ok I get flavor Holy knight etc. but then why does any other tank have a flavor button?

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Ok I get flavor Holy knight etc. but then why does any other tank have a flavor button?

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They did

It’s actually shocking how much flavour has been ripped out of this game over the years

Oh sorry that was a typo I meant doesn’t if that help clear things up. But if that didn’t thank you for you input I’m well aware I’ve been playing since HW. I’m just saying why do PLD have this button? If one people complain about it and two no other tank has something like that in any fourm and also to be clear I’m focusing only on this move we can talk about others in another thread. I hope that didn’t come off jerkish I mean no disrespect

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Oh sorry that was a typo I meant doesn’t if that help clear things up. But if that didn’t thank you for you input I’m well aware I’ve been playing since HW. I’m just saying why do PLD have this button? If one people complain about it and two no other tank has something like that in any fourm and also to be clear I’m focusing only on this move we can talk about others in another thread. I hope that didn’t come off jerkish I mean no disrespect

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I mean it’s hard to talk about just one button because square seems have no rhyme or reason as to what old “flavour” buttons they retain

Like you said shield bash is another, you could argue cure 1/benefic 1 is another as are flavourless defensives like shade shift

But the still here because square hasn’t done their “spin the wheel to delete random skills”

I love that answer (not a gotcha I truly do) But now I must ask. Would it fair is fair should SE remove buttons like this? Or give the other jobs an equivalent? If you don’t see either please explain your viewpoint cause I think fair is fair.

I personally am against the removal of Clemency. It is niche, i know, but it is still useful. Another scenario, Raise should not exist given one can just respawn and run back or in the case of boss arenas, wipe and repeat, but again, the convenience it brings is there. Same with Clemency

So again, no. Just because you might find it "not useful" or "consumes extra space", doesn't mean it has to be removed. We already got EW SMN as an example of the bad case of oversimplification.

I respect your stance since that’s what I asked for. I’m well aware of its utility, I’m not arguing that. So to reiterate my statement. Fair is Fair… right? (If you don’t get what I mean tank balance and job fairness) note my stance isn’t that I don’t like clemency, idk if I made that clear. I love the ability to massively heal people. But!! It’s an ability that no other tank has. So should other tanks get something equivalent to that or just remove it. Your stance is don’t remove it.. ok but each tanks should have an equivalent because… Fair is Fair. If otherwise it’s not fair and SE is doing a disservice to other players

Note we are mainly focusing one this spell

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Note we are mainly focusing one this spell

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A single ability alone is a horrible way to judge things. Clemency is in direct competition for resources with DPS abilities, limiting its use.

If you honestly want to talk about unfair advantages over others, go look at what Warriors have and get back to us on that.

I don’t believe so, my goal simply is to keep focus on what is the topic. As per se the topic you brought up didn’t have anything to do with clemency. But! Since you brought it up. What does warrior have that PLD doesn’t? (I’m only going to hear the one response and reply no offense I just want to go back to the subject at hand)

Clemency is a conflict with dps that’s why Holy Spirit and circle heal per hit now right? So now you solve that need why do you need clemency? There is a logical reason to remove it and a logical one to keep it but if you keep it other tanks should have something of it’s equivalent right?

Clemency's main purpose is it is not meant specifically for duty content per-se, but solo-content, allowing PLD to survive in situations they probably wouldn't otherwise.

And the amount of times I've been in a party and had to heal because the healer is distracted meeting DPS checks or is.. not very skilled, and my health has dropped to dangerous levels which even mitigation wouldn't help me survive, so you better believe I've going to cast Clemency to heal myself - I wouldn't use it on myself if my health is above half my total HP though. And it is useful when cast on someone else as it will also heal you by half that amount if you do so, so there is benefit for PLD to make use of it in emergency situations.

Formerly it was also useful when Divine Veil required a healing spell to execute, in that it allowed me to buff my party up without waiting for damage or the healer to heal me, but that's no longer neccessary.

Also, the other tank Jobs all have their own regenerative-style healing abilities which PLD does not have, so Clemency instead is a burst heal to compensate.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I don’t believe so, my goal simply is to keep focus on what is the topic. As per se the topic you brought up didn’t have anything to do with clemency. But! Since you brought it up. What does warrior have that PLD doesn’t? (I’m only going to hear the one response and reply no offense I just want to go back to the subject at hand)

Clemency is a conflict with dps that’s why Holy Spirit and circle heal per hit now right? So now you solve that need why do you need clemency? There is a logical reason to remove it and a logical one to keep it but if you keep it other tanks should have something of it’s equivalent right?

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The element of choice and opportunity cost is what gives more depth to a job. Clemency fills that just fine. Everything isn't about your personal DPS. Should the healer struggle and you are sure that the next raidwide will kill a DPS, you Clemency them. A dead DPS deals less dps because of the weakness debuff.

Solo content I guess you mean deep dungeons. I can see a reason but all the other tanks see to get by find there so I don’t see a problem that can be solve with adjustments.

Yes you are giving a great reason to keep it. I agree but I can also spin that and say drk can’t keep someone alive only prolonged death. Gnb only when it has corundum (no aurora doesn’t it’s just prolonged death) WAR can when there is NF but you have to still hit the enemy (note these are not equivalent abilities they are TBN competitors)

Again I ask what is the equivalent ability to ability to Clemency?

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Originally Posted by Vatom

I don’t believe so, my goal simply is to keep focus on what is the topic. As per se the topic you brought up didn’t have anything to do with clemency. But! Since you brought it up. What does warrior have that PLD doesn’t? (I’m only going to hear the one response and reply no offense I just want to go back to the subject at hand)

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Bloodwhetting. AKA 4 Benedictions, a shield, and flat mitigation every 25 seconds. So, you know, just god mode on ~95% of the game's content that it can be used.
Or maybe Shake it Off? The ability to shield and heal the entire party repeatedly? What other tank does that?
How about Equilibrium? 2200 potency worth of healing at absolutely no cost to anything.
Inner Release guarantees Direct Crits while serving as an extra Arms' Length allowing them to ignore more knockback mechanics than anyone else on top of the rare cases of any of the other assortment of things it prevents from being done to you.

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Clemency is a conflict with dps that’s why Holy Spirit and circle heal per hit now right? So now you solve that need why do you need clemency? There is a logical reason to remove it and a logical one to keep it but if you keep it other tanks should have something of it’s equivalent right?

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Again, a single skill is a horrible way to judge things and a horrible way to balance things. Warrior aside, tank healing capabilities are roughly in line with one another. Not a perfect 1:1, but fair enough even if the ways they go about it are different. If everyone has to have the exact same button, what's the point of having any more than one of each type of job anyway?

Thank you I will respond to the BW and then move on. (Please understand I not being combative when I say this)

BW was the answer to TBN being busted so everyone got a TBN
Are they balanced right now (debatable) but they are not clemency or a replacement for it HS is and intervention. Also BW doesn’t heal to to full all the time but it does comeback fast I’ll give you that. But If you want to start pointing out broken things we can look HG but that will derail the conversation.

It’s not be maybe I’m not explaining well enough I do apologize.
WAR has more healing due to having less mit not a good enough reasoning. (Their mit is a different form I’m aware instead of brick their a meat shield)

Yes if I follow SE logic then yes everyone should have the same thing just flavor different. For example (all the TBN competitors)
If they give everyone one of those then why not? If your going to complain about job identity, should have spoke up sooner they when they gave PLD healing on HS and HC. Or when everyone got a TBN. Or when tank stance was taken. That ship is arriving in Dawntrail. If to yell loud enough maybe the next expansion.

Ok here is a better question from the whole kit from all the tanks. Since you can spot it , what is clemency or better yet what is that flavor ability that doesn’t intentionally contribute to the kit.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

what is that flavor ability that doesn’t intentionally contribute to the kit.

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Considering these things are part of the kits and didn't just happen accidentally, I'm assuming more so you just mean things that stick out like a sore thumb.
Warrior: Shake it Off. That is a healer ability through and through, just flavored as making everyone too angry to die. It even eats any of your other mitigations.
Dark Knight: Dark Mind. Flavor is just protecting from the main people Dark Knights in the setting were hunting, corrupt church dudes aka mages, and yet it's so utterly useless if you're not taking magic damage specifically.
Gunbreaker: Aurora. You've got healing magic bullets because they needed some excuse for self healing here to keep up with anyone with better reasons for it.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

Thank you I will respond to the BW and then move on. (Please understand I not being combative when I say this)

BW was the answer to TBN being busted so everyone got a TBN
Are they balanced right now (debatable) but they are not clemency or a replacement for it HS is and intervention. Also BW doesn’t heal to to full all the time but it does comeback fast I’ll give you that. But If you want to start pointing out broken things we can look HG but that will derail the conversation...

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Okay, to touch on everything here

TBN isn't really "busted", and never has been. It's just in Shadowbringers the power creep of tbn was starting to show since tbn is more powerful the higher your hp pool is. TBN excels at throwing damage into the trash bin because it's a 25% HP shield, this does mean it's more powerful with other mitigation such as Rampart or Shadow Wall because they reduce the damage intake.

As for the balancing of them, all of the short CD's are balanced EXCEPT for Bloodwhetting. Even in single target it's more powerful than tbn is. I can provide basic math for explanation, but I won't provide that much deep detail unless you actually want it.

PLD's self-sustain is only overdone because it's on your confiteor combo, I think if it were just HS it would be fine. GNB is probably the most balanced aside of DRK.


And Hallowed ground is actually the worst invuln since Living Dead got buffed, due to its CD being so long.

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If they give everyone one of those then why not? If your going to complain about job identity, should have spoke up sooner they when they gave PLD healing on HS and HC. Or when everyone got a TBN. Or when tank stance was taken. That ship is arriving in Dawntrail. If to yell loud enough maybe the next expansion.

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I've been screaming into the void for DRK's combat identity since Shadowbringers, many of us have on and off of the forums (I didn't start on here until around Endwalker, though). As well as letting us position bosses.

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Ok here is a better question from the whole kit from all the tanks. Since you can spot it , what is clemency or better yet what is that flavor ability that doesn’t intentionally contribute to the kit.

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• Warrior: Shake it off, but that honestly needs to be nerfed because it's pretty ludicrous how potent it is when we have a role dedicated to healing.
• Dark Knight: If it weren't for the addition of Oblation, I would have said the fact that flat mits actually make TBN stronger, but with Oblation it seems they've been aware for a while. If they still aren't somehow, then interaction rather than any single button is my pick.
• Gunbreaker: ...idk, camouflage? Parry on a defensive is pretty weird to be in modern ffxiv, but it thematically makes sense when you consider their weapons are lightweight and allow for faster reactions.

TBN was added in Stormblood as an answer to Sheltron working on all damage types. In exchange, Intervention was added so that you could apply a similar effect to your party members. Raw Intuition was repurposed in Shadowbringers to give WAR an equivalent, and GNB gained Heart of Stone on release.

Sheltron, Raw Intuition, and HoS were all upgraded this expansion to add additional defensive effects and self-sustain. TBN didn't because it relies on the shield breaking to remain damage neutral, so Oblation was added as a separate action rather than going the same route as the others. If the MP cost didn't exist, it would have likely ended up designed similar to Arcane Crest, where an upgraded TBN/Oblation breaks to give you a heal/regen. I suspect that's what they did originally aiming for before realizing that it wasn't going to work in practice. Oblation has a very impressive animation for a thoroughly underwhelming effect.

I think adding built in heals to Holy Spirit/Circle was a mistake. I would have much rather that they had given PLD some sort of gameplay condition to gain a swiftcast proc for Clemency to make it situationally damage neutral, while leaving in the option to hardcast it in emergencies.

I also wish that a Shield Swipe approach could have been incorporated into Bash to preserve that 'counter' style gameplay. Bash definitely has niche uses in certain content types, but it's a fairly boring action.

Calling any of hs/hoc/bw balanced when compared to how they were in shadowbringers rings a bit hollow. bw is massively overtuned, but PLD/GNB/WAR are all sitting at over 3x the hp they'd have had mitigating an exactly lethal hit last expansion. (even allowing survival on 1hp with nascent)

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Calling any of hs/hoc/bw balanced when compared to how they were in shadowbringers rings a bit hollow. bw is massively overtuned, but PLD/GNB/WAR are all sitting at over 3x the hp they'd have had mitigating an exactly lethal hit last expansion. (even allowing survival on 1hp with nascent)

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Yeah, in hindsight I could've done better there. Especially since what I said doesn't align with my current thoughts.

The best "balance" they had with the short cd's was back in Shadowbringers, and Warrior's was only really busted in dungeons (albeit more satisfying to pull off). The tanks just have too much sustain in general. (obligatory bar Dark Knight here)

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Originally Posted by EusisLandale

snip.

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Roughly yes thank you.

Well in these factors you are not wrong but they do have their equivalents as well (note though they have equivalents they don’t all have flavor)

Shake it off, missionary, heart, divine veil and passage of arms
(If anyone can complain in this realm it’s GNB and DRK)

Dark mind, vengeance, bulwark, camouflage( each of these are all relevant tank flavor CDs SE just jumbled when they are placed)

Aurora, intervention, nascent flash, oblation (all serve the purpose of giving someone a pat on the back. WAR being special only because they kinda fused it with their main sustain)



Note that all of these have equivalents and serve a purpose to the tank role

A PLD trend and of course someone has to say WAR is “over tuned”. Every other tank literally has multiple the utility tools then we do and still you cry for more of WARs blood. We’ve been the red headed stepchild since stormblood and excepted we’ll never be allowed out the basement.
Vatom isn’t even a WAR main or standing on WAR defense topic and yet, so why choose this as another opportunity to kick a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

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I agree it never was but a lot of people said it was and that’s why everyone got an equivalent.

WAR being more powerful has trade offs due to it needing it and it’s their core gimmick. It’s technically fair

HG is inconvenient now sure but you take no dmg even the devs don’t know how to combat that in a effective means (not saying remove it just call it for what it is)

Hi DRK main here been awhile but yes I was there

Also that was a one off response to an off topic just like this one, I will not continue to deviate.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

WAR being more powerful has trade offs due to it needing it and it’s their core gimmick. It’s technically fair

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Sorry if I sound combative to you, but what downsides? Every single cooldown they have is free with no cost bar Fell Cleave/Decimate, they have FAR more sustain than they actually need. They're basically immortal in dungeons with little to no effort and provide the most potent party utility by a mile. Paladin needs to gimp itself to use Passage of Arms outside of big aoe damage when the boss is untargetable. (i.e Ultima transition phase in Orbonne). They can sustain themselves with Holmgang easily.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

A PLD trend and of course someone has to say WAR is “over tuned”. Every other tank literally has multiple the utility tools then we do and still you cry for more of WARs blood. We’ve been the red headed stepchild since stormblood and excepted we’ll never be allowed out the basement.
Vatom isn’t even a WAR main or standing on WAR defense topic and yet, so why choose this as another opportunity to kick a WAR.

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What the hell are you talking about? WAR is the entitled spoiled rich kid of the tanks and you want to go off and say it's the red-headed step-child?

• You got buffs to Shake it Off that the healers are supposed to handle (healing through bleeds). not once, but TWICE
• The already potent heal on Equilibrium wasn't enough, now you also have a potent HoT on it
• You have the strongest short cd (and by a landside in dungeons)
• You stole convalescence and got it tacked onto Thrill of Battle
• You guys complained until you got your damage buffs (even though it was the boss that was overtuned) and now you're the defacto tank because you have no downsides left

Warrior is overtuned, it isn't a debate of whether it is or it isn't. It just is, whether you want to admit it or not.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Sorry if I sound combative to you, but what downsides? Every single cooldown they have is free with no cost bar Fell Cleave/Decimate, they have FAR more sustain than they actually need. They're basically immortal in dungeons with little to no effort and provide the most potent party utility by a mile. Paladin needs to gimp itself to use Passage of Arms outside of big aoe damage when the boss is untargetable. (i.e Ultima transition phase in Orbonne). They can sustain with HG(edited )

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This isn’t about a tank being better. It’s about fair is fair. I stated I will not continue to deviate the conversation. So again I ask what is the “Equivalent” to clemency for the other tanks?

All I ask for is a justifiable reason it’s there against other tanks that don’t have something similar. This is why I said to ignore the other abilities because people get locked in on the wrong thing. Each job has a way of tackling opposition (for a lack of words Flavor) if this is a flavor button what job(tank) has a button just for flavor and isn’t apart of it’s essential kit. You don’t need clemency now, yes it’s amazing to save party members I agree helps feed into that hero fantasy. But!! Fair is Fair right? If they have this then other tanks should to, maybe not same same in execution but solve the experience none the less.

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

Entitled and spoiled huh…
BW is the strongest CD…really? What’s the purpose of a tank’s CD? To prevent death. Pop BW and press nothing see how far it gets you. GNB pops HoC you get the same mit plus a guaranteed heal for free. Can you do the same with BW??? I guess that’s what makes it the best.
You brought up convalescence right. What was WARs original tank stance, the one they changed for homogenization purposes…a heal potency increase and increased health. How can something we had all along be stolen???
Shake it off…you mean our 1 true party utility? PLD has 4, GNB has 3, DRK has 3. That’s called balance by value instead of numbers.
You brought up damage…I love this one. WAR has always been the damage tank. We had a dps stance that was actually relevant and completed the concept of what a WAR was supposed to be. “You hurt me, I hurt you more before you can kill me”. WAR always lacked traditional tankiness. Less mit, but more damage/health and health on hit as a compensator. Remove the damage, remove the heal, and you have the version of WAR we complained about. An identity less shell of its former shelf. Add in the fact WARs are swinging a weapon as big as another person…yea, it should do marginally more damage than someone swinging a toothpick.
Spoiled…really. PLDs complained about WAR having more damage during HW. PLDs complained about their stance switch only increasing their auto attack speed. PLDs complained about not having health per hit. PLDs complained about not having magic mit baked into their shields soft mit (the only tank who has that by the way). Every single expansion since, PLDs have gotten every single thing they asked for while WAR got dismantled for two complete expansions in a row, but we're the spoiled ones??? Spoiled but there was an entire section of time when WARs weren’t considered for the MT role, because of their lack of mitigation. We’ve always been considered the OT. How does that translate to spoiled rich kid??? I guess because we finally complained at the end of ShB that makes us “spoiled” huh. I think it makes us justified in demanding positive change.
If you had said vengeance is the best tank cd, I woulda agreed, but you didn’t. Mit plus damage is strong in anyone’s book and no other tank has something comparable.
Wow…there goes all your attempts at valid points. By all means…try again.

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Originally Posted by Vatom

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

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In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

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Thank for your stance on this matter. I also feel that way. That feeling is one of the things that makes FF so special. I just ask for more of that on the grounds of fairness to keep the meta at bay and if we can’t do that they should lose it. Or like one said revert back to when I had a place and take healing off of HS. I personally would rather others gain than losing something, it never feels nice.

Since it does link to the topic at hand I will respond to HS and HC sustain but remember their equivalent is other tanks combos into a heal so I will not humor anything else.

If you have any input on this please by all means

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

big amount of text

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You have got to be trolling at this point.

Bloodwhetting grants: Self-healing, a shield, and flat mitigation. You can press nothing but Bloodwhetting in basically everything except savage and ultimate and you'll be golden. Even Nascent Flash, the one you place on another party member, heals you.

1 true party utility? You still have nascent flash (which is essentially just bloodwhetting but put on another party member), you have shake it off. that's two. and shake it off has far a shield that can be buffed (defaults to 15%), heals, AND grants a HoT.

Paladin:

• Intervention: basically just Holy Sheltron but on another party member
• Cover: is virtually almost never used except for cheesing after it got neutered at Shadowbringers launch
• Clemency: you need to break your GCD to even cast this
• Passage of Arms: You literally cannot use this without sacrificing damage unless the boss is untargetable and dishing out aoe

Dark Knight:

• TBN: the actual same effect as if it were casted on yourself, Nascent Flash puts it to shame.
• Oblation: it's just 10% mit on a single party member or yourself lol
• Dark Missionary: it's exclusively 10% magic mitigation to the party

Gunbreaker:

• Aurora: just a flat regen on a single party member, not bad.
• Heart of Corundum: the same as if it was cast on yourself. Still less effective than Nascent Flash because Nascent Flash is literally just giving someone else Bloodwhetting, but it still heals you for some reason.
• Dark Missionary copy paste

Warrior's lack of mitigation hasn't been a problem since 2.1 as I recall. Also, convalescence was in Paladin's kit before Defiance got that added in, so, no, you still stole it from Paladin.

The soft mit that Paladin has doesn't actually amount to much when blocking is rng and can't be buffed outside of Bulwark.

Vengeance isn't anywhere near the best cd, that was surpassed as soon as TBN was released. And bar the counter damage, is equal with Shadow Wall and the other 120s cd's. Let alone Bloodwhetting, have you even read what Bloodwhetting does? and it's on a 25s cooldown, not 120s

MT/OT issues stopped existing when Shadowbringers launched

If you're going to come here and rave like you currently are maybe have some actual foundational arguments instead of making yourself look like a clown

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Originally Posted by Vatom

This isn’t about a tank being better. It’s about fair is fair. I stated I will not continue to deviate the conversation. So again I ask what is the “Equivalent” to clemency for the other tanks?

All I ask for is a justifiable reason it’s there against other tanks that don’t have something similar. This is why I said to ignore the other abilities because people get locked in on the wrong thing. Each job has a way of tackling opposition (for a lack of words Flavor) if this is a flavor button what job(tank) has a button just for flavor and isn’t apart of it’s essential kit. You don’t need clemency now, yes it’s amazing to save party members I agree helps feed into that hero fantasy. But!! Fair is Fair right? If they have this then other tanks should to, maybe not same same in execution but solve the experience none the less.

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

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I respect your devotion to the topic, it's good to see people like you on here.

To answer it, no. We don't need an equivalent to Clemency. That's just going to homogenize the tanks further and take away that niche Paladin has in its kit. I don't want a clemency equivalent on the other tanks because they really don't need it. I play Paladin, but I don't main it, and I don't wish to get it shoved into my kit because "well this one has it, the others should too". I'm very against that sort of design. It's the Paladin's cake, I don't want them to be forced to give me a slice of it.

NF is tied to BW so it’s still once…why bring it up. You confirmed my points trying to give your weakness strength. Everyone’s utility skills cost damage since they don’t damage. Yes I went to the past since your bases for “stealing” came from a complete lack of knowledge. You aren’t worth my time in any kind of debt.
I’ll leave you with two life lessons.
1. When someone has to resort to insults during an argument, they already lost.
2. Never waste more energy than you need to discrediting rhetoric.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

NF is tied to BW so it’s still once…why bring it up. You confirmed my points trying to give your weakness strength. Everyone’s utility skills cost damage since they don’t damage. Yes I went to the past since your bases for “stealing” came from a complete lack of knowledge. You aren’t worth my time in any kind of debt.
I’ll leave you with two life lessons.
1. When someone has to resort to insults during an argument, they already lost.
2. Never waste more energy than you need to discrediting rhetoric.

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If you really are trying to say Nascent Flash isn't a party utility because it's tied to Bloodwhetting, when they could easily just be the same button, then you're delusional and have no place in this discussion lol. I even stated that Nascent Flash stills heals you anyway. Would you still say Bloodwhetting isn't party utility if you could put it on another party member? That would defeat your statement of TBN being party utility.

I gave you even just the most basic of objective fact through minor research and you brought nothing to refute, just take the L dude

To answer it, no. We don't need an equivalent to Clemency. That's just going to homogenize the tanks further and take away that niche Paladin has in its kit. I don't want a clemency equivalent on the other tanks because they really don't need it. I play Paladin, but I don't main it, and I don't wish to get it shoved into my kit because "well this one has it, the others should too". I'm very against that sort of design. It's the Paladin's cake, I don't want them to be forced to give me a slice of it.[/QUOTE]


Good reply, but you just proved the point Vatom is trying to make.
SE set the standard that you can’t have everything. You can’t do damage if you have utility. BRD, DNC, RDM are examples of this. Having more is supposed to cost you and SE claimed that cost was damage. I don’t disagree with that at all, but once you set a governing rule…stand by it totally.
Personally I’m in favor of jobs having a personal feel no one else has. As for balance…balance is making them all viable in their role, even in the uniqueness. Seems to me this entire trend was meant to be an eye opener to the real problem. SE breaks their own rules when it suits them. It also enforces the “they shouldn’t have that” nonsense that plagues the forums. We all strive for uniqueness (which is why glam is the true end game) so why not mirror that in job play-styles. Unfortunately, jealousy runs deep in this community and years of enabling this kind of crappy behavior has painted them into a difficult corner.

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Originally Posted by A-Omega

...Good reply, but you just proved the point Vatom is trying to make.
SE set the standard that you can’t have everything. You can’t do damage if you have utility. BRD, DNC, RDM are examples of this. Having more is supposed to cost you and SE claimed that cost was damage. I don’t disagree with that at all, but once you set a governing rule…stand by it totally.
Personally I’m in favor of jobs having a personal feel no one else has. As for balance…balance is making them all viable in their role, even in the uniqueness. Seems to me this entire trend was meant to be an eye opener to the real problem. SE breaks their own rules when it suits them. It also enforces the “they shouldn’t have that” nonsense that plagues the forums. We all strive for uniqueness (which is why glam is the true end game) so why not mirror that in job play-styles. Unfortunately, jealousy runs deep in this community and years of enabling this kind of crappy behavior has painted them into a difficult corner.

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I've...never stated otherwise? I never said anywhere that Warrior should get all of it's healing removed, I only think it needs to be toned down a notch because it's ludicrously high right now.

Honestly Cover and Shield bash are both less useful I'd get rid of both way before clemency.

Clemency is
1. A good emergency tool that is actually consistent unlike cover.
2. Good Solo tool, blah blah "omg shield bash is like useful at stunning a mob"
3. A good progression tool, if you're learning a fight it's actually one of the best consistent skills at seeing fights longer and learning more.

Ideally clemency would be a OGCD MP tied ability leaving it so that if you spam it, by proxy you still lose damage because you have magic tied to damage, but good useage of it will lead to no such loss, maybe just remove healing on spell attacks though if this was ever a thing.

Do not mind me, I'm just gonna drop this for the repeated question of "what is the equivalent of XY on tank ABC". If there are questions, feel free to ask.

https://i.imgur.com/Hqp0xHZ.png

I did not include CD timers, mitigation % or heal/shield potencies for this spin, I am sure we can all read and refer to FFXIV's Official Job Guide (i.e. Ability list) for this. Here is a link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

Infuriate is Blood Weapon's equivalent, not Equilibrium. DRK doesn't really have an on-demand healing option. I would split resource generation and on-demand healing up because they're very different functions. If you're including resource generation on an otherwise defensive list, it probably makes sense to list gap closers (including Primal Rend) and include Shield Bash as well.

I think Clemency is a good choice aesthetically and illustrates how every instance of self-sustain does not have to be lifesteal. It just needs some situations in which it can be made damage neutral. PLD has historically had a few extra actions as a result of Stormblood, as it gained Total Eclipse as an extra action to offset Flash and had fewer action losses from the role action system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Do not mind me, I'm just gonna drop this for the repeated question of "what is the equivalent of XY on tank ABC". If there are questions, feel free to ask.

https://i.imgur.com/Hqp0xHZ.png

I did not include CD timers, mitigation % or heal/shield potencies for this spin, I am sure we can all read and refer to FFXIV's Official Job Guide (i.e. Ability list) for this. Here is a link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

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Thank you. The blood weapon/ aurora I might have to debate on that but overall agree.

But sir the equivalent was just part of the question. If I might annoy you a bit. Do that it should be removed or that other tanks should have something with it (for a lack of words) potential? Also a personal question, I do apologize this seems off topic but it does affect my outlook. What about PLD pass block?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Infuriate is Blood Weapon's equivalent, not Equilibrium. DRK doesn't really have an on-demand healing option. I would split resource generation and on-demand healing up because they're very different functions. If you're including resource generation on an otherwise defensive list, it probably makes sense to list gap closers (including Primal Rend) and include Shield Bash as well.

I think Clemency is a good choice aesthetically and illustrates how every instance of self-sustain does not have to be lifesteal. It just needs some situations in which it can be made damage neutral. PLD has historically had a few extra actions as a result of Stormblood, as it gained Total Eclipse as an extra action to offset Flash and had fewer action losses from the role action system.

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Beautiful response thank you, if they could solve this issue I think clemency can go very far.