I would love to see Role Actions replaced

I find role actions to be a useful tool for understanding different roles, but also a big part of why I find various jobs to be homogenous.

My preference would be for them to be separate job-specific spells, weapon skills, and abilities that work more cleanly into each job's lore. It would also help with button bloat since you could roll extra charges into existing abilities rather than have a separate button.

E.g., PLD could get Shield Bash as an ability with unlimited charges, but a buff on the target that prevents future Shield Bashes for 10s.

Mind you, these are just examples, and the designers would surely do a better job.

Swiftcast might not work the same on every job. E.g., it could roll into Triplecast earlier which we could get earlier.

That's not to say that certain core capabilities wouldn't be retained, like Esuna, but it could operate differently per job. E.g., maybe it's a group cleanse on one job, but an oGCD on another.

BLM could just ditch Lucid Dreaming completely as it doesn't work past a pretty early level and is strictly inferior to any level of Umbral Phase.

Other examples, ideas, and critiques encouraged.

I honestly think Role Actions are just the most honest part of the homogeneity in jobs, which makes them obvious targets for scrutiny while distracting from the majority of the offenders. Like for example, how much of any tank's "unique" kit is nearly identical to those of other tanks? 1-2-3 combo, 1-2 AoE combo, tank stance, invuln, enmity ranged attack, gap closer, 120 second damage reduction CD, short cooldown damage reduction for party member, short cooldown damage reduction for self. There is so little to every tank that is actually distinct to them and gives them a meaningful personality or play style beyond the VFX. It's a similar situation for healers, too.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I honestly think Role Actions are just the most honest part of the homogeneity in jobs, which makes them obvious targets for scrutiny while distracting from the majority of the offenders. Like for example, how much of any tank's "unique" kit is nearly identical to those of other tanks? 1-2-3 combo, 1-2 AoE combo, tank stance, invuln, enmity ranged attack, gap closer, 120 second damage reduction CD, short cooldown damage reduction for party member, short cooldown damage reduction for self. There is so little to every tank that is actually distinct to them and gives them a meaningful personality or play style beyond the VFX. It's a similar situation for healers, too.

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Honest, sure, but I also think they limit the design potential of the jobs because they're a fixed design element that you have to design around. This is especially egregious as it prevents you from adding additional access or charges to their tank-specific kit. You definitely need certain capabilities to be represented by all the various jobs of a role, but they don't have to agree. What if the movement prevention of Arm's Length were moved to Salted Earth? If you want the tank to feel different you could make all their defensive cooldowns also offensive. You could give Arm's Length movement restriction as just a default trait that's always on except when you choose to disable it.

There's definitely a lot of design space that could be used, but the role actions shrink that space quite a bit it seems.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

Honest, sure, but I also think they limit the design potential of the jobs because they're a fixed design element that you have to design around.

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I suspect that for SE, it's actually flipped around: role actions solve the problem of having to design around 354 different ways that a problem might be answered by the player.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I suspect that for SE, it's actually flipped around: role actions solve the problem of having to design around 354 different ways that a problem might be answered by the player.

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I agree that they're likely a design shortcut. Reducing design space isn't a bad thing on a time budget, but I do feel like it adds to homogeneity. It would be harder for them to widen the design space, but I do believe it would lead to better outcomes long-term.

I'd like to see every role action returned to being exclusive to the class/job it originated from. Then, if other classes and jobs need that functionality back, they should, at the very least, get an action with an animation that's specific to those classes and jobs. And sure, there's plenty of room here, I think (I hope?), for providing that functionality in some way that isn't necessarily an exact copy.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

I'd like to see every role action returned to being exclusive to the class/job it originated from. Then, if other classes and jobs need that functionality back, they should, at the very least, get an action with an animation that's specific to those classes and jobs. And sure, there's plenty of room here, I think (I hope?), for providing that functionality in some way that isn't necessarily an exact copy.

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So...Troubadour/Tactician/Shield Samba. For the record, when either BRD, MCH and DNC use Peloton, they each have a unique animation for it too. I always found it odd, but nice.

Role actions don't need to be replaced, they just need a more clear cut definition of what dictates a skill being a role action, and which roles should actually get them. Right now, it's a bit jumbled and could use some refinement. I'll break it down:

Healer:
Repose - Removed
Esuna - Returned to each healer with their own version and animation
Swiftcast - Fine as is
Lucid Dreaming - Fine as is
Rescue - Fine as is
Surecast - Fine as is

Tank:
Rampart - Returned to PLD. Other tanks given their own version and animation
Low Blow - Fine as is
Provoke - Fine as is
Interject - Removed from tank role action and moved over to healer role actions
Reprisal - Fine as is
Arm's Length - Fine as is
Shirk - Fine as is

Melee DPS:
Second Wind - Fine as is
Bloodbath - Fine as is
Leg Sweep - Fine as is
Feint - Fine as is
Arm's length - Name changed (suggestion: Invigorate) Grants knockback and draw in immunity. Slow effect replaced with grants 2% damage increase when barrier is struck, duration 8s
True North - Fine as is. *deleted if positional are removed in 7.0

Physical Ranged DPS:
Foot Graze - Removed
Leg Graze - Removed
Head Graze - Fine as is
Arm's Length - Name changed (suggestion: Sharp Focus) Grants knockback and draw in immunity. Slow effect if barrier is struck removed and replaced with gaze attack immunity. Duration 8s
Second Wind - Removed
Peloton - Fine as is (BRD still retains its animation for whatever reason, so I do suggest adding an animation for DNC, while MCH can keep the current animation)
Side step - *New role action. Instantly step 5 yalms to either flank. Charges = 2, Recast 30s

Magical ranged DPS:
Addle - Fine as is
Sleep - Removed
Swiftcast - Fine as is
Lucid Dreaming - Name changed (suggestion: Refresh) effect changed to restore 12% MP, recast 60s
Surecast - Fine as is

If SE was willing to introduce an actually interesting facet of new gameplay around crowd control and debuffs, I'd want to keep things like repose or foot graze but otherwise right now... It's very tied to things like deep dungeons or eureka, which I think could warrant SE to keep them, but perhaps not inside the main toolkit of those jobs and instead in a secondary kit proper to specific types of content.

Also if you remove lucid from BLM, all the BLM mains that claim to like non standard lines will lose half of their lines, amusingly enough. It's one of the main skills making non standard possible, behind transpose.

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Originally Posted by Valence

If SE was willing to introduce an actually interesting facet of new gameplay around crowd control and debuffs, I'd want to keep things like repose or foot graze but otherwise right now... It's very tied to things like deep dungeons or eureka, which I think could warrant SE to keep them, but perhaps not inside the main toolkit of those jobs and instead in a secondary kit proper to specific types of content.

Also if you remove lucid from BLM, all the BLM mains that claim to like non standard lines will lose half of their lines, amusingly enough. It's one of the main skills making non standard possible, behind transpose.

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I wouldn't necessarily remove Bind and Sleep effects from the game, but you could then spread them out and give them different cast times, target styles, and durations.

BLM could pick up a multi-target sleep effect, SCH could pick up a multi-target Rescue, PLD could get a multi-target Immovable, DRK could get Rampart, but with spikes/damage back. There's lots of design space to make things feel different. Each of those 5-6 role abilities per job would be opportunities for distinction between the jobs in those roles.

In very broad strokes, you have roughly two choices:

The FF14 approach means that there's a level of homogeneity among classes in a role, but it also means that any combination of classes is viable.

The WoW approach means that there's less homogeneity among classes in a role, but it also means that some classes will underperform or overperform on any given patch/raid/fight.

Both approaches have their tradeoffs.

We've had more heterogeneity in the past and it didn't lock jobs out of content (yes, even PLD in HW). I'm sure there is middleground options between wow and current xiv. Constantly repeating the sutra defending homogenization as a way to flagellate ourselves as if we didn't deserve better because it would be worse is depressing.

For foot and leg graze I'd like "additional" Effects

Foot graze for example could cause a small aoe stun on and around the target.
While Leg graze could have a small Reduction effect like 3% that lasts 15s and can be applied around every 60s

Idk I feel like those skills would benefit a lot from additional effects.

If anything we will probably see role actions increase as they introduce more jobs. You already see how job design is getting more and more simplified

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

In very broad strokes, you have roughly two choices:

The FF14 approach means that there's a level of homogeneity among classes in a role, but it also means that any combination of classes is viable.

The WoW approach means that there's less homogeneity among classes in a role, but it also means that some classes will underperform or overperform on any given patch/raid/fight.

Both approaches have their tradeoffs.

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One trade off being blandness and the over being imbalance.

Personally I've always been someone who prefer imbalance over blandness but it's not like they could meet us half way like they did with stormblood heck even SHB was way less bland then EW and arguably more balanced.

If you make everything bring the same thing, then in the end all you ever bring a job for is marginally more damage which is the situation that happened with the mid patch, so unironically being so safe with balance and design leads to imbalances because if everything brings the same utility, mobility ect. You might as well go with what does a little bit more damage and is easier to play.

The down side for being imbalanced is generally made out to be something so bad, you are always going to get people locking out Jobs even EW couldn't stop that, Crusading against uniqueness and fun job design doesn't solve this issue at all, it generally just makes the game more boring and worse for everyone.

My last point is people bring up "bring the player not the job" but if every Job is the same then whats the point of having multiple jobs in the first place? I suppose the argument is you can't be locked out of your favourite job anymore but my favourite job being practically deleted was the better solution? aka 6.2 PLD.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I wouldn't necessarily remove Bind and Sleep effects from the game, but you could then spread them out and give them different cast times, target styles, and durations.

BLM could pick up a multi-target sleep effect, SCH could pick up a multi-target Rescue, PLD could get a multi-target Immovable, DRK could get Rampart, but with spikes/damage back. There's lots of design space to make things feel different. Each of those 5-6 role abilities per job would be opportunities for distinction between the jobs in those roles.

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See this is the sort of thing that I absolutely agree with. The role actions could all take cues from the different flavors of other job-specific actions and identities.

I would mind less that every job has the same slots in their kit if every ability functioned slightly differently for different playstyles/niche uses. I like these suggestions specifically: BLM multi-sleep (Sleep II), SCH multi-rescue (Regroup), DRK-rampart spikes (Dark Spikes). Other suggestions: bring back Virus as Summoner's variation of Addle; bring back Paladin's Flash as a multi-provoke; bring back Kaiten as Samurai's true north that does additional damage (jk, just bring Kaiten back please). In general I see this idea as having potential to bring back action animations that were removed.

I would also better spread out the available status effects of role actions. Tanks can still stun, but melee DPS shouldn't be able to stun at all; replace it with bleed. Ranged Phys can keep heavy, Magical DPS can keep sleep, but Healers should have Sleep replaced with Blind and Silence I think (and make most dungeon boss skills vulnerable to those statuses). That way Healers can have more proactive, offensive-ish decision-making in between heals that isn't just more DPS, but also in a way that complements casters having outright offensive spells and sleep.

It wouldn't change the balance of trials that substantially, since most of those instances are single-target. But it would make the jobs feel more engaging in dungeons and solo content.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Repose - Removed
Sleep - Removed

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Replace Repose with Sleep
Increase the size of Sleep's AoE
Make sleep last a number of attacks to make it function as a stun with separate diminishing returns


Additionally, make BRD's The Warden's Paean into a role skill and replace it with some other support skill.

There's also the ability to add role-restricted abilities to a job here or there. I don't think BRD having a cleanse is game breaking. RDM and SMN having a rez isn't game breaking either. You could give MNK knockback effects, I like the previously mentioned PLD multi-provoke. I could see a job somewhere getting an invuln ability. I could see DRG with a multi-knockback on Stardiver.

Another thing about a lot of these abilities is that they don't work on bosses anyways. They just add flavor in dungeons, MSQ, FATEs, etc. And these are just ideas being thrown out. Some aren't going to work or won't work with the given kit, but they the intention does seem to counter the current direction that a lot of players seem to be annoyed by. I'm not against reducing button bloat (though I disagree with the term), but if they're going to reduce the number of buttons, the flavor has to come from the parts that are kept and that can be difficult with fewer ingredients.

Damage imbalances are trivial to fix. Increase some potencies, problem solved until next patch.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

For foot and leg graze I'd like "additional" Effects

Foot graze for example could cause a small aoe stun on and around the target.
While Leg graze could have a small Reduction effect like 3% that lasts 15s and can be applied around every 60s

Idk I feel like those skills would benefit a lot from additional effects.

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Yes please make my role interesting again I beg of you even if it's only worth in dungeons it's still 90% of the game anyway i'll take it ;_;

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Originally Posted by Valence

Damage imbalances are trivial to fix. Increase some potencies, problem solved until next patch.



Yes please make my role interesting again I beg of you even if it's only worth in dungeons it's still 90% of the game anyway i'll take it ;_;

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I'd love for some added utility to Phys ranged, It says in the job guide they provide support to allies (which they barely do, they have one extra raid wide utility...), Phys ranged will always have to be the lowest DPS category so giving them more to offer rather then just "the 1% buff" would be great. I think it's only fair honestly.

Personally these are just small role action changes, I'm hoping for more then that for phys ranged x).

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd love for some added utility to Phys ranged, It says in the job guide they provide support to allies (which they barely do, they have one extra raid wide utility...), Phys ranged will always have to be the lowest DPS category so giving them more to offer rather then just "the 1% buff" would be great. I think it's only fair honestly.

Personally these are just small role action changes, I'm hoping for more then that for phys ranged x).

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AoE Extreme Caution for MCH, "Motion triggered mines"
AoE Silence for BRD, "Let me sing!"
Pull over DNC seduction from PvP

While I really enjoy the idea of mobs exploding and doing the mid-air flip, I doing they have all those animations. Still, a stun would be cool.

A lot of these aren't going to be viable, but I'm certainly enjoying the act of creativity

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Originally Posted by Sjol

AoE Extreme Caution for MCH, "Motion triggered mines"
AoE Silence for BRD, "Let me sing!"
Pull over DNC seduction from PvP

While I really enjoy the idea of mobs exploding and doing the mid-air flip, I doing they have all those animations. Still, a stun would be cool.

A lot of these aren't going to be viable, but I'm certainly enjoying the act of creativity

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I mean a AOE stun is more a dungeon thing while the "weak" mitigation is nice to have in general

Theirs sadly not loads you can add utility wise outside of, Healing, speed, Stuns, Reduction and Shielding. I think Speed buffs would be nice for bard for example, and things like Bards esuna to have more uses, I love it when tanks have buster's with DOT's at the end for example bards can help that by saving a Healer a esuna ect. I'm sure they can be more creative aswell with added utility it just it's something that isn't easy with ff14's design

It's important for Utility to not take away from healers job but more be supportive and help their job, which sadly Healers job without other player's utility isn't that really impactful outside of hardcore, So I do hope future fights actually take into account healer's having resources.