It feels like NPCs in side quests are too nice and reasonable

I've done pretty much all the side quest content and it generally feels like all the NPCs are super nice and reasonable, which removes a lot of tension and also is very unbelievable. It's one thing when you're opposed to someone or something and you come to understand their point of view but stay opposed to them, but it's quite another for everyone to always come to agreement. Sometimes people just can't agree, and the game seems to really want everyone to all get along. It's made a lot of the side quests boring for me and something that I find myself speed-reading through more and more often. I was wondering if it was only me. :D

They do overdo it compared to what is realistic, but also...

People are actually reasonable if they aren't taking things, within their own narrow logic. A really diplomatic person can actually find themselves creating common ground with people a lot.

The Warrior of Light is meant to be the best diplomat in the universe, getting warring nations to become allies and develop trade relationships with eachother. It happens with the dragons. Then in the First, unifying everyone to work together after being conquered. And well it always happens. We put a lot of focus on the fighting ability of the Warrior of Light, but a big part of it we don't talk about is how extraordinarily diplomatic their silence and mannerisms (nods and dances) is.

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Originally Posted by Sjol

I've done pretty much all the side quest content and it generally feels like all the NPCs are super nice and reasonable, which removes a lot of tension and also is very unbelievable. It's one thing when you're opposed to someone or something and you come to understand their point of view but stay opposed to them, but it's quite another for everyone to always come to agreement. Sometimes people just can't agree, and the game seems to really want everyone to all get along. It's made a lot of the side quests boring for me and something that I find myself speed-reading through more and more often. I was wondering if it was only me. :D

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IMO too often games fall into the exact opposite end of this spectrum. I think one can like, count on one hand how many quests don't end with the quest-giver and/or their friends betraying you in Skyrim, or dying for arbitrary reasons. Because it feels like the writers can't imagine the player being okay with splitting loot or not being the leader of a faction. Fallout 4 was like this too, and Witcher 3 to a similar extent, even though yeah, the logical thing is to not turn on the literal demigod/person with a nuke/monster hunter and get immediately turned to giblets.

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

IMO too often games fall into the exact opposite end of this spectrum. I think one can like, count on one hand how many quests don't end with the quest-giver and/or their friends betraying you in Skyrim, or dying for arbitrary reasons. Because it feels like the writers can't imagine the player being okay with splitting loot or not being the leader of a faction. Fallout 4 was like this too, and Witcher 3 to a similar extent, even though yeah, the logical thing is to not turn on the literal demigod/person with a nuke/monster hunter and get immediately turned to giblets.

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I'm all for people not challenging the god-killing character, but they're also way too understanding with other NPCs. It's a little too "power of friendship" will fix everything. Things work out too easily and side quests always seem to wrap up with things being better than they started. A lot of powerful people try to fix things and make them worse instead or even more common, make them different but just as bad.

Amazing diplomats exist in real life, too and cannot necessarily bridge the differences between people that built up over literal generations. People aren't reasonable a lot of the time and history is replete with many instances of people sticking with their side at the detriment to the whole.

While I don't expect for the protagonists to spend 7 months real time working out trade deals, I do expect more friction. The number of complex problems we've solved with a few minutes of work breaks my suspension of disbelief more often than not. That's not good story telling if you're in the story and you realize that this isn't how people actually behave. Again, this is mostly about the side quests instead of the MSQ (though that's had more problems recently).

I remember when we got to Ondo Cups after having drained their ocean and thinking about how reasonable they were about the fact that we did it and how we still haven't fixed it. I'm not talking about betrayal. I'm talking about obstinance and disagreeableness. One can chose not to agree to help others without aggressing on the god killer.

How far along are you? There are definitely some side quests where even a people person like the Warrior of Light gets a frosty reception. You may not be seeing them yet. And I don't mean just current expansion. I just went through Stormblood on an alt and there are plenty there.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

How far along are you? There are definitely some side quests where even a people person like the Warrior of Light gets a frosty reception. You may not be seeing them yet. And I don't mean just current expansion. I just went through Stormblood on an alt and there are plenty there.

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I've done all the side quests that aren't locked behind Eureka progression. And initial reception isn't what I'm necessarily concerned about. It's more that all problems are resolvable with the power of friendship and/or murder. Real people hold grudges and are inconsolable. Real people have unfixable trauma. The MSQ deals with those themes, but the side quests generally don't, with the exception of the raid series sometimes. But I'm mostly thinking of the side quests where the resolution isn't murdering a weapon of war.

I agree. Though I can't point out specific instances out of memory, I do vividly recall experiencing the feeling of "well, that went way too smooth..." a few too many times.

To be fair though, my own narrative brainstorming has run into an issue with this- there's a point where you have to move on from this sort of thing, or it'll heavily bog down the pacing as it gets stuck in the minutiae of it all

I feel the merchant in the lv 45 DRk quest is a bit of a jerk. Sure later on he tells us that we actually did him a favor by returning those wares all bloodied. The masked Miqo'te from the allied beast tribe quests is constantly a sleezy jerk. Then there's Kageyama who isn't a great guy who we run into multiple times via the unlock for Kugane Castle, SB Hildibrand and Tataru's endeavor. Don't forget Forelmort the uncle of Jannequinard and Carvallian who is a jerk to us no matter. The I'd bring up Ungust, Lolorito or Laurentiis but they all appear in MSQ. Though Lolorito is also a jerk in twice in the ARR Cul quests.

If you think the NPCs are nice, you should do the Zodiac relic quests, especially the wherefore art thou zodiac step, you'll find a new hatred for NPCs let me tell you.

I think that it's ok for sidequests in the game to be roughly the opposite of the doomerism that is ubiquitous across all forms of social media.

A little escapism to optimism is, I think, ok for FF14.

I mean it's the driving force of FFXIV's entire motivation for the last 10 years, NPCs are both way too nice and at the same time incredibly greedy and unhelpful, I know it's for gameplay reasons but it's so ridiculous to me that we have to buy things still, like, we literally saved the planet from an intergalactic threat that was wiping out life from the universe and when we get home we still have to pay for new boots? We have to pony up for chunks of meteorites to get a new weapon? We literally saved EVERYONE from even the afterlife being destroyed and Tataru isn't paying my damn Aetheryte fees?

It's wild.

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah

If you think the NPCs are nice, you should do the Zodiac relic quests, especially the wherefore art thou zodiac step, you'll find a new hatred for NPCs let me tell you.

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Oh, I have. I've got six ARR relics because, "[I'm] a sadist". I appreciated some of the personal conflict and that everyone wasn't overly nice. Sometimes it's okay for people to co-exist and be productive without liking each other. Yanno, like in the real world.

I understand that a lot of it is influenced by Japanese culture and that's okay. It does mean coming from a non-Japanese context it feels almost toxically nice. This idea that with enough niceness everything with be smoothed out and nothing bad will happen. I've worked for Japanese companies, though, and they have the same work issues as everywhere -- they just look a little different.

I didn't start this to say that there aren't any jerks in the game or that there aren't at least some problems that end up unsolvable. And Gerolt has a habit of being one of the better rough characters and I think it works for that character. And while his roughness can be cliche at times, it's better than someone who is always positive and nice. There's a certain amount of tension that's necessary for dramatic storytelling and people not getting along is part of it. And, sometimes, there just aren't good answers. I'm reminded of the plot point out of the MCU (not necessarily the best writing out there), but they had to deal with the idea that you suddenly have a population come back wanting to regain the property they lost like houses, but the world had moved on.

I guess I'm looking for more "no right answer" side quests. We do get those in the MSQ, though less and less often, it feels. It doesn't have to be every one, but it would be nice if it was more often.

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Originally Posted by Equitable_Remedy

I think that it's ok for sidequests in the game to be roughly the opposite of the doomerism that is ubiquitous across all forms of social media.

A little escapism to optimism is, I think, ok for FF14.

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I'm not saying everything needs to be doom and gloom. There's a spectrum between okay outcomes and good ones. And sometimes positivity is the thing some of us would like to escape, though I understand that it might not be a common sentiment. I've certainly met my share of toxically positive environments where all problems are swept under the rug. For me, escapism is seeing us succeed in something hard where people aren't getting along and don't want to admit to there being a problem. The escapism becomes the success. ;)

I am using an automatic translation tool. Sorry if there are any mistakes.
I agree with this thread.
Sometimes when I play the FFXIV story, I think, "The world where everyone is right and kind is too bright and hard for me. I want to escape to a dimly lit cave".
In that cave, there are "people who are not right", "people with a bit of a heart problem", "people who have sinned in the past". (including the usual me, who is not a WoL).
They have to put up with each other, but they are not condemned to death by the righteous.

*Additional Information
The quality of the scripts varies... In terms of light and darkness, the unresolved barbarian issue and the story of the people of The Garlean Empire, for example, were close to my taste.

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

IMO too often games fall into the exact opposite end of this spectrum.

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This is my experience too.
I think grimdark for the sake of grimdark is banal af.
No point, no meaning, wow!
But each for their own. If this is your or anyone's favourite way to catharsis - now that angle I can actually undertstand, even get behind sometimes.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I liked the grumpy monk historian purely because he didn't immediately start fawning over the player character.

Considering how depressing and rife with betrayal the MSQ can be, it's nice to have *some* kind of win in other quests where not everyone wants to stab you in the back (or front, some of those MSQ NPCs aren't picky on where the dagger goes, lol).

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Originally Posted by Burmecia

This is my experience too.
I think grimdark for the sake of grimdark is banal af.
No point, no meaning, wow!
But each for their own. If this is your or anyone's favourite way to catharsis - now that angle I can actually undertstand, even get behind sometimes.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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I think my and, by the accounts of a few others on here, issue is that the game introduces grimdark material, but then NPCs don't behave in a way that's even remotely realistic. Half my town is dead, my husband is dead, our neighbors are dead, but "everything is going to be okay". If the game is going to have such high stakes and injuries to the populace at large, shouldn't the people we meet be more messed up?

Did you ever do that quest where some dude has a harem of poachers and basically holds that girl's older sister hostage and there's literally nothing you can do?

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Originally Posted by DiaDeem

Did you ever do that quest where some dude has a harem of poachers and basically holds that girl's older sister hostage and there's literally nothing you can do?

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Oh, I do, and I've enjoyed gutting him (or rather watching other people gut him due to the Yokai Watch event) every time the FATE spawns.

Early on, at least, I believe the lore is that side quests are essentially people petitioning the local adventurer's guild for assistance. That kinda predisposes them to being nice and reasonable, I'd say, else they wouldn't be asking for help in the first place.

This is also a MSQ issue.

"Bob is 110% against our plan, which contradicts his entire worldview."
*Scion gives a 15-second speech*
"Bob will now die for our plan, as needed."

The scions can never be wrong or show sustained negative emotion and you must also get your way for gameplay reasons, so everyone hugs by the end of a quest.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

This is also a MSQ issue.

"Bob is 110% against our plan, which contradicts his entire worldview."
*Scion gives a 15-second speech*
"Bob will now die for our plan, as needed."

The scions can never be wrong or show sustained negative emotion and you must also get your way for gameplay reasons, so everyone hugs by the end of a quest.

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Other games have managed for the protagonist to be wrong, though and show negative emotions. It does require an extreme suspension of disbelief for people who have been generational enemies to suddenly be like, "well because you brought me soup AND talked to me for 30 seconds, I'm now a diehard fan and will go against my own people". It really is ridiculous how quickly people change their mind to support you. I would kind of love to find out that some people who were agreeable were talking bad about us behind our backs because they're afraid we'll murder them. That would at least be more realistic.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

This is also a MSQ issue.

"Bob is 110% against our plan, which contradicts his entire worldview."
*Scion gives a 15-second speech*
"Bob will now die for our plan, as needed."

The scions can never be wrong or show sustained negative emotion and you must also get your way for gameplay reasons, so everyone hugs by the end of a quest.

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where were you during literally any scene with thancred in shadowbringers

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

where were you during literally any scene with thancred in shadowbringers

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Honestly, it's been a while since I did that content, but it's funny that you have to go back five years for an example.

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

where were you during literally any scene with thancred in shadowbringers

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The MSQ generally doesn't have the problem I'm talking about which is why I was just talking about side quests.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

Honestly, it's been a while since I did that content, but it's funny that you have to go back five years for an example.

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heh I had been going through my screencaps recently looking for the old DRG meter and I had taken just, so many ShB screencaps at that time. Got to basically speedrun the story through File Explorer xD

But yeah we've had multiple points where the scions have absolutely screwed up. The one of course that everyone remembers is the Crystal Braves, but also:
- Urianger almost getting us killed by the Warrior of Darkness
- the scions trying and failing to get the ala mhigan resistance to do anything other than be cannon fodder for the first half of StB
- ...most of shadowbringers (yshtola grilling urianger about how absolutely screwed we are behind our backs is very spicy)

It could be argued that in Endwalker, everyone is very busy trying to not die, and yes in real life crisis situations people tend to shut up and work together regardless. I would argue that the way the Garleans were handled probably could've been better on the scions' part - no good plan ends with having your diplomats wearing bomb collars on them.

this is a sidetrack tho. To be honest I actually haven't done most of the "yellow" sidequests yet, which was why I had mentioned on the first page something that had bugged me about other RPGs I had played.

That's fair. I just notice a lot more "someone is being unreasonable->oh OK they're 110% on board" content than "scions screw up->external party corrects them."

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Originally Posted by Ancalagon_Blacktalon

But yeah we've had multiple points where the scions have absolutely screwed up. The one of course that everyone remembers is the Crystal Braves, but also:
- Urianger almost getting us killed by the Warrior of Darkness
- the scions trying and failing to get the ala mhigan resistance to do anything other than be cannon fodder for the first half of StB
- ...most of shadowbringers (yshtola grilling urianger about how absolutely screwed we are behind our backs is very spicy)

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Being wrong and failing and being humbled is part of the classic heroes journey and I really liked those parts. I like it when my character fails from time to time. It mirrors my own motivation to succeed after failing.

Centuries of story show us success without failure is boring. If the writing is serving the characters instead of the characters serving the story then you can call it good marketing but you would be hard-pressed to call it good writing.