Dawntrail Benchmark Feedback - Female Miqo'te

I wanted to give my feedback for the changes I've seen with my female face 4 miqo'te in the benchmark, and thought it might be worth posting a new thread as I hadn't seen any general female miqo'te ones. I appreciate all the work the devs have gone through for this graphical update, and I think miqo'tes have gotten some of the better upgrades compared to most races, but there are many elements I find myself unhappy with and she doesn't feel the same anymore.

EW 6.58 left, DT benchmark right
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...78636338058cd&

My main thoughts are that I feel like many areas are being blended and softened and made incredibly shiny without thought for the general shape, in doing this losing all the quirks and traits that we all love of our warriors of light.

Nose - Currently her nose has a fairly large and flat shape and she has rounder nostrils, something I have always loved about her when many in-game noses tend to be smaller. In the benchmark has been blended into a shapeless, shiny form, nothing about the general shape of it remaining. She looks like she has had botched plastic surgery, and also been made into wax. Her nostrils look less defined, her nose in general smaller with smaller nostrils, and its overly way too shiny (something that seems to be apparent for all skin for some reason).

Eyes - Something I'm seeing often brought up is updated eyes looking dead and lifeless, which is apparent here too, plus very dark and full fake looking eyelashes. I feel like the new eyelashes are a downgrade, they feel way too intense and unrealistic and the originals have a far more natural look.

Lips/mouth - This is something I've seen many complaints about, as the new lips look somehow considerably flatter and the shape of the lip in general has completely changed for many people, my miqo'te included. Her current lips well defined puffy w shape with prominent round tubercles with her mouth being partially open and her teeth showing through. This has always been something I loved about these lips, giving them shape and volume, and I love that her mouth is a little open. Its now been reduced to a flat set of lips with basically a straight line between them, the original shape again lost, and the texture and depth seems to be less realistic, and they don't blend into the face in the same way and appear almost separate, like they have lipstick on.

Lighting/colours - For some reason I had issues with colours going very grey for her in the benchmark creator at times as seen below:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLHfmZUX...g&name=900x900

I really do appreciate all the work they've done, but many choices seem strange for the character upgrades, and as many of you know being with a character for 2000+ hours makes you love how they look a great deal :(

This is the first screenshot I took comparing them, as I was very unhappy with the differences! But they do tend to look better in the benchmark and this area seems to be the worst for lighting. But I really do find the skin to be far too glossy and fake looking, it looks like a doll, shiny and made of plastic.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLHfE2SW...jpg&name=large

I agree with a lot, though I would add that quite a few eyebrows are changed, which of course quite heavily impacts the feel of someones facial expression.

With the changes to eyebrows, eyelashes, mouth and skin, it almost looks like my character has applied heavy amounts of cheap make-up. There is a kind of lack of eye-contact which seems to almost make my character look high, though that might be much more lighting and angle dependant than before, so I rest my judgement on that part a bit.

Still, my wishes were not for my character to look like she is high and has applied a lot of cheap-make up, which partially looks like a vain attempt to look more sultry, especially with the eyelashes (if I am allowed to be a bit less prosaic in my criticism haha).

https://i.imgur.com/A5K17L2.png
Left is old, right is new.

Thanks for this topic.

So, my thoughts, which I have already described in other topics. Only this time there are more comparison images.

I believe that something happened to the very model of the face of all the miqo in the lower part. I won’t even write about the lips themselves, their shape and texture, everything is more than obvious here and this has already been said in many topics.

There is a complex problem here: the mouth + those around it.
Here you can see that a horizontal dent has appeared, passing through the mouth itself and affecting the corners of the lips + cheeks. In directed light it looks terrifying.

https://i.imgur.com/JqY5ZBX.png


I made a small collage in different locations and under different (but directional) light and at different camera angles.

Here you can see exactly where this dent begins and where it ends. Nothing like this had ever been seen on any Miqo face before.


https://i.imgur.com/6oNapGo.png

Many people say "oh, it's just bad light, look at the benchmark."
Well. I looked at the benchmark many times and I want to say that everything is even worse there.

I would also like to note that I have not seen anything like this in any other race.

The light falls on her face and ugly hollows appear on it.

https://i.imgur.com/d9hwTe4.png

Some people say "correct the gamma". No, it's not a gamma issue. It's not a question of skin color. It's not a matter of choosing the type of lips. It's not a question of bad light. This happens in any light, if it is directional.

Of course they might tell me “don’t put she in the light.” But I don't want to hide her from the light, is she a vampire? I want to continue to admire her in any light. I want to take screenshots with directional light, it's my favorite type of light. I don't want to turn away from the monitor screen when the light falls on her face. I just want this to be fixed before 7.0 comes out.

This is a really serious error. Please, SE, pay attention to this.

Hi! Wanted to share this of face 4 on Miqo'te catgirl. <3
Overall, I think it's nice, a softer look - I'll write a few notes below!


Things I like more: Thicker lashes, eyebrow colour matches hair, sharper clan marks!

Things I like less: Flatter shadows feels less dynamic, less hair shine feels less healthy, missing strong white flare in eyes feels less alive, lipstick could blend more into skin than hard edges.


Before
https://i.imgur.com/n9hmFAW.png

After
https://i.imgur.com/voa9kFY.png

I also have noticed that nontraditional skintones, such as grey shades on Keepers which originally had more blue or neutral undertones, now have red undertones, to the point that in most cutscene lighting in the benchmark, they end up with jarring red coloring to the point it made me feel like my char had allergies. I also miss, among my teeth being nerfed and my cute lil lip gap being gone like y'all were demonstrating, that the lighting covers up the nose smudge on face 4 keeper the minute you enter into literally any source of light. I had a thread about the nose specifically on grey tones here that I started.

Eyes looking dead and souless is because of the issue i brought up here. Least for eyes in general.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-from-the-eyes

Basically they change how the reflection in the eyes works from a static dot that follows the camera, to multiple dots that follows the position of the sun.

Meanwhile plenty of eye options for all races have had their slant changed a bit... Often from stern looks being changed to sultry.

The contrast between the pupil and iris seems to have been reduced as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirisRay

Thanks for this topic.

So, my thoughts, which I have already described in other topics. Only this time there are more comparison images.

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The massive horizontal crease is just too much, it completely destroys the face in every lighting, every expression, every angle
it looks absolutely deformed. I can't look past it, it's so prominent

https://i.imgur.com/gZOWvxr.png

Oh, I'd also like to +1 that I wish the eyelash fullness was a toggle, as I don't really like how much thicker they are on my character. She used to have a more resting neutral or bitchy face, and now she looks all cutesy in a way that is very disconcerting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirisRay

Thanks for this topic.

So, my thoughts, which I have already described in other topics. Only this time there are more comparison images.

I believe that something happened to the very model of the face of all the miqo in the lower part. I won’t even write about the lips themselves, their shape and texture, everything is more than obvious here and this has already been said in many topics.

There is a complex problem here: the mouth + those around it.
Here you can see that a horizontal dent has appeared, passing through the mouth itself and affecting the corners of the lips + cheeks. In directed light it looks terrifying.

https://i.imgur.com/JqY5ZBX.png


I made a small collage in different locations and under different (but directional) light and at different camera angles.

Here you can see exactly where this dent begins and where it ends. Nothing like this had ever been seen on any Miqo face before.


https://i.imgur.com/6oNapGo.png

Many people say "oh, it's just bad light, look at the benchmark."
Well. I looked at the benchmark many times and I want to say that everything is even worse there.

I would also like to note that I have not seen anything like this in any other race. I checked absolutely everyone, I looked at the benchmark for each race and no one else has anything like this.

The light falls on her face and ugly hollows appear on it.

https://i.imgur.com/UjKJDhf.png

The lower part of her face is broken. Honestly, I don’t know where to write so that those who can fix it can see it.
Some people say "correct the gamma". No, it's not a gamma issue. It's not a question of skin color. It's not a matter of choosing the type of face or lips. It's not a question of bad light. This happens in any light, if it is directional.

Of course they might tell me “don’t put she in the light.” But I don't want to hide her from the light, is she a vampire? I want to continue to admire her in any light. I want to take screenshots with directional light, it's my favorite type of light. I don't want to turn away from the monitor screen when the light falls on her face. I just want this to be fixed before 7.0 comes out.

This is a really serious, critical error. Please, SE, pay attention to this. Please, fix this.

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I think this has always been the case, but the new shaders just make it more apparent. Think of how Prae makes your face look in some cutscenes.
https://i.imgur.com/Jam0Ko2.png
You can see the indent next to the mouth casts a shadow on both. Some polygon tweaks sure, but I think it comes down to Miqo having "fuller" cheeks than some others, so their models curve in more toward the bottom. I do think it is even more apparent on mouth 4 though, as the mouth is narrower so widens that "dip", thus giving you a constant puckered look.

I don't have too much to add beyond what's already been stated, but the one thing that really got me was the nerfing of the female Keeper of the Moon fangs. We want proper fangs on them! But all we got for them was normal human teeth.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jakkal

I don't have too much to add beyond what's already been stated, but the one thing that really got me was the nerfing of the female Keeper of the Moon fangs. We want proper fangs on them! But all we got for them was normal human teeth.

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This this this. There's a big thread for it over here but it's worth linking in here too so it's all in one place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celestiyall

This this this. There's a big thread for it over here but it's worth linking in here too so it's all in one place.

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Oh thank you, I didn't even see that! Bring back our fangs!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cutestfox

The massive horizontal crease is just too much, it completely destroys the face in every lighting, every expression, every angle
it looks absolutely deformed. I can't look past it, it's so prominent

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I completely agree! I might even accept the disfigured shape of the lips themselves, but this crease is simply terrifying. It disfigures her face like nothing else, I don’t understand how I can even get used to it or cope with it. She was simply crippled. From some angles it even looks like a scar from a knife that was used to cut her mouth :( I can't look at it.

Therefore, I am sure that this is some kind of mistake and it needs to be fixed as soon as possible!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Khiana

I think this has always been the case, but the new shaders just make it more apparent. Think of how Prae makes your face look in some cutscenes.

You can see the indent next to the mouth casts a shadow on both. Some polygon tweaks sure, but I think it comes down to Miqo having "fuller" cheeks than some others, so their models curve in more toward the bottom. I do think it is even more apparent on mouth 4 though, as the mouth is narrower so widens that "dip", thus giving you a constant puckered look.

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It has never been more obvious. There was a slight indentation at the corners of the mouth, very natural, that never created that wild, huge crease.

They completely changed the shape of the mouth and did something to the cheeks next to it, so that instead of small dimples there were huge gaps. I don't think it was intended that way, I'm sure it was someone's mistake.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Khiana

I think this has always been the case, but the new shaders just make it more apparent. Think of how Prae makes your face look in some cutscenes.
https://i.imgur.com/Jam0Ko2.png
You can see the indent next to the mouth casts a shadow on both. Some polygon tweaks sure, but I think it comes down to Miqo having "fuller" cheeks than some others, so their models curve in more toward the bottom. I do think it is even more apparent on mouth 4 though, as the mouth is narrower so widens that "dip", thus giving you a constant puckered look.

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I too think that it has always been there, more or less.
And that it's how the new light and shadows work that really makes such features more obvious than ever before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirisRay

I'm sure it was someone's mistake.

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I constantly feel that this whole light and shadow isn't finished.
Comparing from live version and the benchmark it certainly doesn't look finished.
At least in the CC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I constantly feel that this whole light and shadow isn't finished.
Comparing from live version and the benchmark it certainly doesn't look finished.
At least in the CC.

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I believe this is in fact *not* the final product, and they are going to be working on things up until Dawntrail release as per the benchmark page, which is why now is the time for us all to talk about these things :)

https://i.imgur.com/vu5OHet.png

Here you can clearly see how a small dimple has turned into a huge depression. Moreover, this depression is oblong and stretches quite far from the mouth.

The shape of the lips and cheeks nearby has changed. Also, I believe that a strongly and unsightly altered shape of the upper lip also greatly influences this. That's the whole point, light has nothing to do with it. Plus, the “plastic” skin type only increases the effect.

The funny thing is, as you can see, not even a single hair in the eyebrows has changed :) The eyes, eyebrows, nose, and face shape have not changed. Nothing. Only the lips and the part around the lips. And this disfigures the character in a way... I can’t find the words, my English is very poor.
If it weren't for the terrible lips and this terrible effect, I would be pretty happy now. But disfigured lips without texture on them and this dent... All this is a waking nightmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Evergrey

I constantly feel that this whole light and shadow isn't finished.
Comparing from live version and the benchmark it certainly doesn't look finished.
At least in the CC.

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I also believe that this is not the end result. That’s why I’m in a hurry to write feedback now in the hope that it will be added to the list of urgent corrections.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AirisRay

https://i.imgur.com/vu5OHet.png

Here you can clearly see how a small dimple has turned into a huge depression. Moreover, this depression is oblong and stretches quite far from the mouth.

The shape of the lips and cheeks nearby has changed. Also, I believe that a strongly and unsightly altered shape of the upper lip also greatly influences this. That's the whole point, light has nothing to do with it. Plus, the “plastic” skin type only increases the effect.

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It is absolutely massive and completely part of the model, the fact it shows up so deep in every single angle and lighting and with every lip shape on this face
Its completely broken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cutestfox

It is absolutely massive and completely part of the model, the fact it shows up so deep in every single angle and lighting and with every lip shape on this face
Its completely broken

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I really hope this gets noticed, prioritized and fixed for 7.0! I hope SO much...

Another thing that bothers me is the change to the eyebrow toggle on Face 1 seekers.
They're much slimmer now.
https://i.imgur.com/PiQYcA2.gif

This combined with the fuller lashes gives my character quite a different vibe.
https://i.imgur.com/o3FGpHz.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/FBjEKDH.png

I hope I get to keep my big bushy brows in Dawntrail.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celestiyall

I also have noticed that nontraditional skintones, such as grey shades on Keepers which originally had more blue or neutral undertones, now have red undertones, to the point that in most cutscene lighting in the benchmark, they end up with jarring red coloring to the point it made me feel like my char had allergies. I also miss, among my teeth being nerfed and my cute lil lip gap being gone like y'all were demonstrating, that the lighting covers up the nose smudge on face 4 keeper the minute you enter into literally any source of light. I had a thread about the nose specifically on grey tones here that I started.

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I noticed that if I turned auto-hdr in windows on, it would add a red cast to my wol, which i did not like. If you've got auto-hdr turned on in windows 11, try turning it off for xiv.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LogosDiablo

I noticed that if I turned auto-hdr in windows on, it would add a red cast to my wol, which i did not like. If you've got auto-hdr turned on in windows 11, try turning it off for xiv.

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I do not, but thank you for the suggestion! Maybe it will work for someone else here. I'm starting to think I'm a Keeper of the Moon because yoship only wants me to come out at night now if I want to look good LOL

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celestiyall

I do not, but thank you for the suggestion! Maybe it will work for someone else here. I'm starting to think I'm a Keeper of the Moon because yoship only wants me to come out at night now if I want to look good LOL

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hah. yeah. i AM a keeper and my skin is fine, but i have my fangs to be worried about. :(

I feel like a number of subtle changes have completely changed the personality of my character. There are some changes to the nose and lips, and the jawline looks a little rounder than before, but I think it's mainly due to the changes to the eyes.

On face 4 the eyelashes are much thicker and start lower, which gives a very different look to the eye than before. It makes the eyes look much darker, and while I think the shape of the eyes themselves is pretty much the same, it looks like the outer corner is lower due to the changes to the eyelashes.

Comparison from 6.x aesthetician screen to 7.0 benchmark character creator (same environment, same gamma settings, moon keeper face 4, eye 3, mouth 4):

https://imgur.com/MZqrnJY

Before:
https://i.imgur.com/3kUHSN0.png

After:
https://i.imgur.com/ZyOhzrQ.png

Comparison of eye shapes (traced over the above images and enlarged):
https://i.imgur.com/WmPNpCt.png

Hi o/ thanks for starting this general thread, I have a few thoughts I'd like to share based on my results in the benchmark.

First and foremost: I do want to say that even though a lot of people are upset at the current state of things, I still appreciate the time, effort, and resources the team poured into this graphical update. The upscaling on textures was really well done, I think. My WoL's facial stripes have never looked better and the edges of the hair are so clean. A joy to see, really! The starter gear looks great too! I'm tempted to use the top as a main chest piece for dawntrail glam. The more defined normal mapping on the hands and feet are really well done, giving just enough detail before it becomes uncanny. Its so nice to have added visual context to the little elements on our characters.

Now into my general feedback coming from a Female Miqo'te Keeper of the Moon Face 4 Player:

https://i.imgur.com/CCxwDdF.png

Overall, not that bad! For the most part it still looks like her, which I'm thankful for. There are a few things that are holding me back from really seeing her though, at least when viewed up close in the character creator:

https://i.imgur.com/Xv4GK6p.png

This has been mentioned already in this thread and others but the mouth and teeth are very disappointing. The idle/neutral mouth being slightly agape was a big charm point for face 4 that I and many others have become quite attached to. I love that I can zoom into screenshots taken of her from far back and see just that little line of white pixels. It's like she's always got a bit of a smile to her, or makes her look more relaxed in general. Now it feels closed off. I'm not going to go into it here since there is a whole thread about it but the fangs are just... not okay. I don't know how this passed inspection and I had wished we had gotten a moon cat preview during one of the fan fests so that this wouldn't be a problem so close to release. Keepers have fangs like a cat. Those canines should be twice the length of the incisors with a sharper edge. That is their racial trait along with the enlarged pupils. To me it's a really important aspect to my miqo'te's character designs and provides some much needed edge suitable of a fierce looking warrior of light!
The mouth textures are nice though! I think a little more depth between the teeth might be nice, in certain lighting condition it looks a little like there's a mouth guard on the bottom row, but fangs are a much higher priority at the moment.

I am also really sad about the problem going on with the seeker mouths having weird indenting at the corners of the mouth. I'm like 95% sure that's the same mouth as Y'shtola so I'm really hoping this gets addressed before launch.

[feedback will continue in reply]

[continuation]

Next item: The eyes

This might come down to personal preference, but I think the eyelashes are way overboard on this one. I do appreciate the added density to the lash line, but the shape is off just enough that it brings the entire eye corners down. I went with eye 6 because it had a sharper, raised corner. Again, it felt cat like in a way the others did not.

https://i.imgur.com/F9k2ps8.gif

Now her eyes feel more droopy and more human in a way? It's as if she just walked out of the salon with a huge set of false lashes glues on her. I'll admit, it looks decent enough from a distance; but I know a lot of my regular play time will be spent looking at her up close and it'll bug me endlessly if I don't mention how much I dislike it. I think it could be solved by editing the mesh of the lash card:

https://i.imgur.com/d1h3pvz.png
Flattening out the inner curve of the lash, where it attached to the lid, and allowing more of the top waterline to be visible; along with cutting the end a little shorter so it doesn't overlap with the bottom lash line would create a higher corner to the eye. As well, bringing the lash line further down towards the tear duct will add a bit more weight and make it look balanced, angular, and cat-like:

https://www.dailypaws.com/thmb/lzPCS...dbc8ed8c22.jpg

^ this was always the vibe I got from that eye shape

Last item:

This falls under "not sure if Feature or Bug" category, but I noticed a few hair styles have translucent hair cards around the ears:

https://i.imgur.com/fY0vbqU.png
(as an aside, love the new metal texture on the ear clasp! such a tiny detail but makes a world of difference)

While I can see the intention, making it look more like the whispy hair around the base of the inner ear, I don't think making the texture translucent really pulls it off. The hair texture on the card is chunky and thick, I think reverting it back to full opacity would be better. This may be personal preference on my end, but I want my WOL's ears to be as furry and fuzzy looking as possible.

I don't have the full list of hair styles in which this occurs, but it seems like any hair that used this hair card has this effect.

That's all my feedback. Other things like the darker pigmentation around the nose sometimes being less visible in certain lighting conditions is something I've experienced as well but others have gone more in depth than I want to.

Tried it out myself on my main.
Things I noticed right away were her chin and nose weren't as sharp and pointy as it is now, which kinda defeats the look I was going for... Biggest screw up that I can't reconcile is that they changed mouth type 3 for no reason as too away its distinct :3 shape, made it bigger and more boring. Overall not impressed and a fantasia won't change it because all the other settings just give her a bigger mouth...
https://i.imgur.com/JoQr7BF.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/V0mMSHa.png

I completely agree with this, I have screenshots I can post later of my Miqote. I use the Miqote Face 1, if you look at the eyes in general, they're much wider overall and gives off a very uncanny/ psychotic look when looking head on at your character. Almost like they thought this would be "cute" eyes but it just came out looking insane.

Eye shape 3 for Miqote Face 1 normally has a very sharp look, almost low set eyes which I really like. In the benchmark they made the top portion more round, and now my character has this wide eyed "blank stare" look.

Matt dry and dark lips, eyebrows are much smaller and more narrow, and nose 4 from the side profile has this random bump and is not straight anymore. Hair is matt dry, with no light/shine bounce no matter the angle.

These changes are definitely not for the better and have officially downgraded in quality compared to the models we have currently. All they really needed to do is upgrade textures, not alter the facial structure or features.

This upgrade to the models is not ready for release and personally, I will not be investing any money into the expansion unless this is fixed and addressed.

The eyebrow facial toggle seems to be misaligned. I'm not sure if it is worth doing a separate post about this, but it's really frustrating. The toggle does not look natural on any eyebrow option now and instead looks like a chunk is missing. I love the toggle because I love the unkempt eyebrow look. Now they just look wrong.

Current (it looks "complete"):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLPS0hUW...g&name=900x900

Benchmark (it just looks off):
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GLPS1ibW...g&name=900x900

I made a small collage on the theme "what we were promised and what we received."
It seems I got the noses slightly mixed up, but I think it's not that important.

Above: 2 screenshots from the video that was presented to us.
In the middle: current view and the benchmark view
Below: Frame from the benchmark.

https://i.imgur.com/1HDT12F.png

permanent :I face

the parting on the lips for face 4 where you could see the teeth was a charm point for me that i always thought was really cute so seeing it gone in the benchmark character creator was sad..i know it's probably not gonna come back but it kinda takes away some of the appeal of my favorite face option :(

https://i.imgur.com/dSxFxoQ.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArsayNun

[continuation]

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I chose eye 6 for the exact same reason, thank you so much for your hard work with all these screenshots pointing out the same disappointments I had!

The smudge nose on face 4 for miqo'te I dislike.
please at least do optional for the mud nose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dolumi

The smudge nose on face 4 for miqo'te I dislike.
please at least do optional for the mud nose.

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As someone who loves the smudge I don't understand why it's permanently tied to the one face. I think it should be optional for every face.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ashenri

the parting on the lips for face 4 where you could see the teeth was a charm point for me that i always thought was really cute so seeing it gone in the benchmark character creator was sad..i know it's probably not gonna come back but it kinda takes away some of the appeal of my favorite face option :(

https://i.imgur.com/dSxFxoQ.png

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Well it came back in DT, maybe even a little too much. I personally like it but I'm wondering what's gonna happen with the next update.