[Feedback/Suggestion] After the FF16 event, hopes for future battle content

The FF16 collaboration battle had several bits of functionality that I'm personally hoping to see more of in future battle content:

Reaction/Payoff gameplay

In the FF16 fight, we have a cooldown action that allows us to dodge an enemy attack if pressed within the appropriate 1-second window. And when an attack was successfully dodged, we earned a charge that could be spent on a strong attack.

I really loved this mechanic, because it actually asked me to briefly interrupt my rotation so that I could dynamically perform an action in response to my opponent's moves; broadly speaking I feel that's more engaging than simply doing a rotation that is independent of my opponent's actions.

In this specific battle the dodge mechanic only worked on specific AoE's and was indeed the only way to avoid them, but I think that the fundamental functionality here is ripe to be used not simply as a fight-specific thumbstick mechanic, but in the actual skills and spells of some of the game's jobs.

For example, give a certain melee job a weaponskill that gives 1 second of AoE avoidance, and if they're standing in an AoE during that window give them access to a satisfying counterattack. This gives the player an additional option for how to deal with encounter mechanics, specifically one that allows them to take a risk: the risk of getting hit by timing it poorly, as well as the risk of focusing too much on the timing and thus dropping your rotation. But if they perform it properly, their reward is a big attack.

I can see similar but different tools being added to other jobs' kits as well, so that there are numerous ways to engage with these mechanics. Maybe a properly timed DRG Jump evades an AoE and thus does enhanced damage with more spectacular VFX; maybe a well-timed RDM Displacement performs similarly. Maybe a healer can cast a spell that can nullify an attack during a 1-2 second window, and when absorbed they get a charge that can be exchanged for either a strong heal or a strong attack (their choice). Maybe one job can channel its dodge (ala Meditate) over 5 seconds and stops after evading a single AoE, but naturally using it earlier than necessary results in sacrificing some actions you could have taken. Maybe some of these moves have longer cooldowns and others shorter. I'd love to see most of them be spells or weaponskills because that GCD and cast times add a bit of complexity to using these tools at the proper time, but maybe some of them are abilities.

And of course, maybe there are some moves that can't be dodged. Enrage wipers, tankbusters, stacks markers...? Which is just to say that adding such moves doesn't require that every mechanic be avoidable. Like tank invulns, as long as it's consistent, players can learn what works and what doesn't.

All of which is to say, it seems like there are a lot of ways this kind of feature could be implemented into a variety of the game's classes to encourage more reactive and dynamic gameplay with chances to take risks for meaningful rewards. I really hope that in the coming years I get to see mechanics like these baked into the actual design of jobs!

Brief stuns when being hit

When hit by some of the moves in the FF16 encounter, I received roughly 1 second of "Down for the Count", which stopped my character from both moving and attacking very briefly.

I loved this. It made getting hit feel tangible in a way that simply seeing a number go down doesn't. I got smacked and it took me a short time to get back on my feet and be able to do stuff again, and that just made me feel more like I was actually in a fight with repercussions.

I should emphasize that I don't think this should be added to every AoE in the game! I think there are plenty of places in the game where there are chains of AoE's to avoid, and what I personally would not want is for 1 misstep to result in a player getting stun-locked to death by a succession of AoE's; I don't think that's fun. But for some AoE's, I think it really sells the fact that I got hit and gives me an incentive to not get hit besides a number simply going down, because getting hit will affect my ability to perform actions. So I'm hoping to see this kind of thing more in the future.

Visual indications of when AoE's will hit

The FF16 encounter had certain fire AoE's that were circles, and a ring started in the center of them and then expanded outwards, and when it reached the edge was the time that the AoE hit and did its damage.

I've seen similar stuff a handful of times in other battle content, but since I'm giving feedback I really wanted to say how much I enjoyed the signposting here; this immediately communicated when the AoE's would hit without my needing to have experienced their timing before, which was especially helpful as they were introduced alongside other AoE's. Sometimes when multiple mechanics are stacked it can be ambiguous which will go off first, but with this it was transparent well before the first AoE had a chance to hit. I'd love to see more of this kind of thing in the future!

Anyway, that's all of my subjective feedback/suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to consider them!

Yeah, bring "dodge roll" into savage. I want to see that melee tried to greed, But failed the dodge roll so he got that damage down debuff

They are not going to turn XIV into an action game. Do people not realize how an action game dodge with iframes would completely trivialize like 99% of mechanics in the game? At most it would be just another fight specific bonus action.

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Originally Posted by Raim

They are not going to turn XIV into an action game. Do people not realize how an action game dodge with iframes would completely trivialize like 99% of mechanics in the game?

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To be clear, I 100% agree that FF14 shouldn't become an action game.

First off, I think what I'm suggesting can be implemented without requiring any additional reaction speed beyond what FF14 already asks of its players. There are plenty of AoE's in the game that require players to react within about a second in order to move out of them before they go off, so I don't think this would raise the bar. Though if I'm off on that numerically because my brain isn't parsing time right when I'm hot-footing it in a fight, just increase the minimum dodge window of these moves to be higher in accordance with the wiggle room of the game's faster AoE's.

And as far as dodging 99% of mechanics, again I agree that's not desirable. That's why I think it would be great to balance such moves with cooldowns while also making them not work against certain mechanics.

If implemented with thought and care, giving players these optional tools won't move FF14 any closer to being an action game than it already is.

I think the game would be more fun if they had FF16 like combat instead of the wow type combat we have currently in FF16. If they did a major change like that it would have to be in an expansion with a battle system overhaul.

Oh yeah! Having the cast bar indicated on the actual aoe was a really nice touch. I hope it gets used more.

Completely agree, this game is in dire need of this kind of innovation gameplay wise to feel fresh again, i kind of wonder if they are testing the water with that event and are actually planning to add this mechanic (or variation of it) for each job.

That would explain why we didn't get any showcase for the future job's action yet "inhale unhealthy amount of copium"

I hated the mechanic, it ruined my rotation. Mostly ignored it.

If anything it reinforced that 16 isn't a game I want to play.

nah, they already got bad feedback about the current direction making actions that complete negates aoes and such like that would just make it worse. Though I wouldn't mind certain abilities have a function like this kind of like how you pick two abilities in criterion.

The Ifrit fight was fun, and I liked having the unique Duty Actions. I think this is the first time they've given us more than one at a time, isn't it? (Edit: Oops, I forgot Variant dungeons) It would be nice if more encounters featured these. It doesn't have to be specifically for dodging, it could really do anything depending on the context. Could even be a utility action used throughout a dungeon, like lighting a torch or generating an air bubble around you to survive sections filled with deadly gas.

I think I preferred the Warp Strike action they gave us in the FFXV event though. It was a great movement skill. You could use it as a gap closer, but also to get out of danger. The boss even had an ability where it would draw you toward her and the only way to get out of harm in time was to Warp Strike to a pillar far away.

I didn't notice the brief "Down for the Count" thing as much. I may have only gotten it one time and wasn't sure why it was happening, but I agree that it would be cool to have some more "impact" to certain AoEs other than just taking damage. I forget which bosses do it, but occasionally they'll have a big swipe attack that actually sends your character flying backward and tumbling around on the ground, not getting up for a second or two. Can't have that happening all the time, but I like it as an additional punishment for failing certain mechanics.

I think both 15 and 16 had unique ideas in their duty actions that could be implemented in some way even if it’s just going forward in other solo duties

Warp strike being a gap closer/dodge mechanism in the vein of thunderclap but also allowing for perfect dodges to allow for a perfect strike is honestly most interesting than any gap closer we currently have. Solo duties that have ambient “stuff” that you could warp strike to and over time the amount of “stuff” goes down as the boss destroys it would be interesting

Rising flames and dodge strike along with the cast had being the growing pool of the AOE were also really good but I do think them making every single hit dodgeable went a bit too far, in the end I was barely doing my rotation I was just chasing optional AOE’s to dodge them and get a precision strike, the fight probably would have been even better if some AOE’s specifically couldn’t be dodged

But yeah I would love if they integrated them into solo duties, you could even explain it away as azem drawing power from the souls of other worlds as to why we have these abilities

oh man, the dodge thing was good, although it was literally my first fight with a controller and wow, that was painful, I couldn't defend Clive because I had no idea how to select stuff lol. Targeting was harder than I was expecting :D

I'd really like more dodge stuff like that though, that was fun.

I'm only here to add this thing:

The dodge was usable on almost any AOE, indicator or not. The timing was when the orange marks start disappearing to being basically gone (at about 10ms ping), so with higher ping its close to when it starts disappearing.

Also the dodge used directional inputs (WASD, stick movement) for the direction you wanted to dodge into, so that's nice.

I ripped the dodge key on nearly anything, felt great gameplay wise for melee jobs. For genuine casters like Black Mage it would not be a good mechanic unless you could use it mid-cast and would hold your most recent cast time spent and give you a bonus on top of it.

I enjoyed it, but then again I also enjoyed Episode 4+ Phantasy Star Online 2 and Elden Ring. Looking forward to doing FFXVI when it comes to PC.

It could potentially bring interesting things but dodging is really the least interesting thing I can think of when it comes to reactive gameplay. It's nothing more than dodge rolling in effect.

And to be honest i'd like them to fix the damn jobs and battle system first before anything else, but it's good food for thought. If anything, it goes to show that introducing that kind of mechanic for the sake of it would just push me off entirely. If it has an actual and meaningful interaction with my job toolkit though, perhaps...?

What is the secret to Defend Clive? I have tried half a dozen times and can't target that thing in the middle to get the bubble / countdown. What's the secret? I'm on gunbreaker atm.

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Originally Posted by WindyGamer

What is the secret to Defend Clive? I have tried half a dozen times and can't target that thing in the middle to get the bubble / countdown. What's the secret? I'm on gunbreaker atm.

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If you are on PC just right click it, if you are on console then just use the d pad left or right button that should select it then just press X

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you are on PC just right click it, if you are on console then just use the d pad left or right button that should select it then just press X

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RCLICK....??? sigh... I've tried everyting else.. Let's try that. sigh...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I think the game would be more fun if they had FF16 like combat instead of the wow type combat we have currently in FF16. If they did a major change like that it would have to be in an expansion with a battle system overhaul.

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?

FF16 combat is already very similar to XIV, but applied to character action logic and with way fewer skills to use per fight.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I ripped the dodge key on nearly anything, felt great gameplay wise for melee jobs. For genuine casters like Black Mage it would not be a good mechanic unless you could use it mid-cast and would hold your most recent cast time spent and give you a bonus on top of it.

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For whatever it's worth, I played the duty as a Black Mage and really enjoyed needing to specifically carve out a window between casts to dodge and counterattack. Though I'm sure there are some people who feel differently, which is why I think the sweet spot would be making these moves parts of players kits but not required in any encounter. That way they can be used only if and when players want to, similar to how everyone has a knockback nullification ability but you can get through the entire game without ever putting it on your hotbar.

His doggy is nice, but how about his haircut?? LOL

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Originally Posted by Raim

They are not going to turn XIV into an action game. Do people not realize how an action game dodge with iframes would completely trivialize like 99% of mechanics in the game? At most it would be just another fight specific bonus action.

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Not only would this break every fight in the game but people would complain constantly about their rotations being interrupted by having to dodge or not being able to dodge properly at all because of their 56k internet.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

For whatever it's worth, I played the duty as a Black Mage and really enjoyed needing to specifically carve out a window between casts to dodge and counterattack. Though I'm sure there are some people who feel differently, which is why I think the sweet spot would be making these moves parts of players kits but not required in any encounter. That way they can be used only if and when players want to, similar to how everyone has a knockback nullification ability but you can get through the entire game without ever putting it on your hotbar.

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So what's the point in using them then? Unless they are a dps gain, and it becomes mandatory to use them if you want to do damage in non trivial content.

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Originally Posted by Valence

So what's the point in using them then? Unless they are a dps gain, and it becomes mandatory to use them if you want to do damage in non trivial content.

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Would perhaps make more sense if we had more AOEs that would otherwise force melee combatants out of melee distance. Like if Pandemonium's Holy actually extended a fair bit further than max melee distance, as an example.

The mechanic is clearly better suited for melee combat or as a skillcheck against unavoidable AOEs (like line AOE charge attacks) that would hurt a whole lot more if not dodged. It's not bad per se, but the nuances would need to exist in such a way to not make it a direct DPS gain like Third Eye would on Samurai but rather act like an uptime tool similar to Arm's Length.

That said, limitation on what can and can't be dodged would need to be clear here.

On the one hand, I appreciate the experimentation in one-off encounters.

On the other hand, this version of "dodging" fell flat for me. There was no sense of urgency to it. There was no need for any sort of real awareness as to what was happening in the fight. I'm not even sure what it was I was actually supposed to be dodging. It was just, "ooh, unavoidable AoE, I wonder when the countdown will appear... <twiddle thumbs for a couple eternities>... 2... 1... Simon says to push the button!"

With a base GCD of 2.5 seconds, FFXIV seems to want to say (at least to me) that it follows in the tradition of turn-based RPGs. "Dodging" makes me think of action RPGs though. I don't really care which way FFXIV goes; I just want it to commit to one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Valence

So what's the point in using them then? Unless they are a dps gain, and it becomes mandatory to use them if you want to do damage in non trivial content.

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I think the best way to answer that question is with another question: what's the point of using your knockback nullification ability? Is that a DPS gain? And is it always a DPS gain, or just sometimes? There's nuance ripe to be explored here.

It would be pretty bad to put on most jobs. But I think people are writing it off too fast. I think it would be a good thing to add with restrictions.

First and foremost, I could see this being a mechanic on one single job that is built around this mechanic in mind. That could be the job's gimmick like Mudras are for NIN.
It could be balanced in a way that it has a cooldown. It could be put on a job with an extremely short range of attack meaning that the job has to stick to the boss tightly requiring precision with dodges (this would be really high skill cap and not feasible for most FFXIV players lol). Following that, it could be a skill that requires you to be in melee range so you can't spam it if you disengage from the boss making it useless with mechanics that pull you away from the target. It could be only usable on things like orange AoEs on the ground, chariots, and basic raidwides and not set-piece mechanics like Party Synergy which is where the 'game breaking' would come from. It could be the only form of movement the job has, so the class wouldn't have any other tools to deal with getting out of AoEs. Add no dashes to the mix to reward foresight to saving a charge of it after a dodge where needed.

Maybe not all of these, but its the first thoughts that come to mind. Kinda sounds like it would be pretty hard to master, but the game needs jobs like that.

It could be essentially be a souped up backstep/teleport/shade shift - things that all melee have right now - and reward good usage with extra damage (like Third Eye).

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If you are on PC just right click it, if you are on console then just use the d pad left or right button that should select it then just press X

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Nothing has worked for me (I play on gamepad using Macbook). So ... to right click Defend Clive star - I pressed the touchpad with my two fingers. I wish that the persons, who made this quest so sick, will get some real sick (gonorrhea is fine).