Outdated info in Hall of the Novice

In Hall of the Novice DPS exercise #2 they mention "the opponent will have a harder time avoiding blows from the flanks and rear". Isn't this outdated information, from when directional accuracy was a thing?

In a way, though positionals for melee DPS are still a thing. In another way it's telling new DPS players not to stand in front of mobs.
Even if you don't have positionals there's still enemies that cleave so not standing in their face is preferrable.
Granted, the reasoning might be wrong but it still teaches the right thing.

The hall of novice has outdated , old information. In more than one exercise. They do need to adjust it to be correct with the current kits and playstyles. This is known. It's likely viewed as "not a big deal, cuz ppl can just talk and educate the new people" then ban them for compelling a playstyle

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Originally Posted by Astrus

In a way, though positionals for melee DPS are still a thing. In another way it's telling new DPS players not to stand in front of mobs.
Even if you don't have positionals there's still enemies that cleave so not standing in their face is preferrable.
Granted, the reasoning might be wrong but it still teaches the right thing.

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Agree, the general principles it teaches still apply but they should rework it a bit to include some things (finding a balance between healing and dpsing, tank CD explanation, etc.).

The Hall of the Novice also tries to teach tanks in one of the exercises to separate groupings of enemies from the rest (like the mammets from the other types of enemies) and kill them piece by piece like that.

However, such a tactic doesn't even work in ARR dungeons, let alone more recent ones. The enemies in a pack will just aggro together anyway.

Not to mention that isn't the preferred or more efficient method that most players/tanks do (pulling everything they can from to wall to wall).

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Originally Posted by Luluya

However, such a tactic doesn't even work in ARR dungeons, let alone more recent ones. The enemies in a pack will just aggro together anyway.

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It does work in some ARR dungeons at least – roaming enemies are separate aggro groups to standing enemies in the same zone, so it's possible lure one lot without alerting the other. For instance, the first room of Aurum Vale could be handled that way, or after the second boss there you have the room full of diremites with some jellyfish roaming back and forth through the middle of the pack, so if you're playing "as instructed" you can just draw the jellyfish to attack you and deal with them before entering the room.

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Originally Posted by Luluya

The Hall of the Novice also tries to teach tanks in one of the exercises to separate groupings of enemies from the rest (like the mammets from the other types of enemies) and kill them piece by piece like that.

However, such a tactic doesn't even work in ARR dungeons, let alone more recent ones. The enemies in a pack will just aggro together anyway.

Not to mention that isn't the preferred or more efficient method that most players/tanks do (pulling everything they can from to wall to wall).

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There's also the one where they say to use single target abilities on a pack of 3 mobs which is big no-no

Believe or not, the game still runs accuracy checks, particularly within old content, but generally it only matters if you're a lower level than the monster you're fighting (or if you've been blinded).

This means the information is still accurate, even if it's practically useless.

It needs to be updated, for sure

Also- Hall of the Novice should be mandatory for sprouts and noone should be allowed to enter sync'd dungeons at lvl 30+ without their job stone
The influx of new players has proven why there needs to be a mandatory tutorial.

I'm leveling a class atm & ran into 3 groups already, of players who do not have their job stones in a lvl 30+ dungeon- the tank runs around in circles, without tank stance even after being repeatedly told to put it on and how to find it.
Tank then attacks only 1 enemy at a time- letting all of the other enemies go ham on the healer & dps.
I have worlds of patience with new people- I just feel bad that I can't prevent the bs they'll deal with because they don't have to do any sort of formal mandatory sprout training.
It's like releasing a baby sea turtle unto the ocean- some get it, some don't. But the amount of grief that can be avoided due to a lack of help new players are willing to shrug off because 'they'll figure it out' means tank/ dps/ and healing training need to be mandatory before these sprouts are unleashed into the wild lol
Not everyone knows how MMO's work- it's not common sense for everyone to stop & read the tooltips.

I remember them having the mechanic where you need to interact with a level to stop adds from coming, and that's an outdated mechanic if I've ever seen one. There are only a couple of ARR dungeons that remotely have something like this (if any at this point). A few Guildhests do something similar to this too (incidentally if you really want to get into outdated content, here you go).

This may be a hot take, but I kinda miss mechanics like these in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Destati

I remember them having the mechanic where you need to interact with a level to stop adds from coming, and that's an outdated mechanic if I've ever seen one. There are only a couple of ARR dungeons that remotely have something like this (if any at this point). A few Guildhests do something similar to this too (incidentally if you really want to get into outdated content, here you go).

This may be a hot take, but I kinda miss mechanics like these in dungeons.

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I miss having interactive things in dungeons as well but apparently that's just far too complicated for people and causes fights

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Originally Posted by Gordita

I miss having interactive things in dungeons as well but apparently that's just far too complicated for people and causes fights

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That's not the issue, it's more that interactive doors and such are just a waste of time. Like, you can see that in HW dungeons, oh wow, you need to stop to wait 3 seconds to pick up the key that only drops when you clear all mobs in previous section and then wait 3 seconds to open the door. Now its just door opening when you clear all mobs. For 'mechanics' that require interaction, they've just been shifted away from needing to click things, which I see as a good thing, considering, like, how clunky the 'interacting with thing' is, especially with high latency or in combat.

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Originally Posted by KooriGraywolf

In Hall of the Novice DPS exercise #2 they mention "the opponent will have a harder time avoiding blows from the flanks and rear". Isn't this outdated information, from when directional accuracy was a thing?

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This information is still accurate. The changes to accuracy guarantee everyone 100% frontal accuracy on any target of an equal or lower level with no buffs or debuffs. If you attack a higher level enemy, if you are affected by Blind/AccDown, or if the enemy has Evasion Up, you have a miss chance. However, attacking from the flank or rear will still reduce this miss chance.

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Originally Posted by Gordita

There's also the one where they say to use single target abilities on a pack of 3 mobs which is big no-no

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I think this is a big one that also needs to be updated. To encourage AoEs on mob groups

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Originally Posted by HeyMcFly

It needs to be updated, for sure

Also- Hall of the Novice should be mandatory for sprouts and noone should be allowed to enter sync'd dungeons at lvl 30+ without their job stone
The influx of new players has proven why there needs to be a mandatory tutorial.

I'm leveling a class atm & ran into 3 groups already, of players who do not have their job stones in a lvl 30+ dungeon- the tank runs around in circles, without tank stance even after being repeatedly told to put it on and how to find it.
Tank then attacks only 1 enemy at a time- letting all of the other enemies go ham on the healer & dps.
I have worlds of patience with new people- I just feel bad that I can't prevent the bs they'll deal with because they don't have to do any sort of formal mandatory sprout training.
It's like releasing a baby sea turtle unto the ocean- some get it, some don't. But the amount of grief that can be avoided due to a lack of help new players are willing to shrug off because 'they'll figure it out' means tank/ dps/ and healing training need to be mandatory before these sprouts are unleashed into the wild lol
Not everyone knows how MMO's work- it's not common sense for everyone to stop & read the tooltips.

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I agree Hall of the Novice could be mandatory, but also shorter. 7-8 exercises seems a bit excessive to teach only the basics.

It could be as little as 4 I could think.

Tank:

1. Basic dodging, dodging while attacking
2. Basic enmity (tank stance and Shield Lob/Tomahawk)
3. Enmity through AoE
4. Full practice

DPS:

1. Basic dodging, dodging while attacking
2. AoEs
3. Directionals
4. Full practice

Healers:

1. Basic dodging, dodging while attacking
2. Healing
3. Healing and attacking
4. Full practice

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Originally Posted by Gordita

I miss having interactive things in dungeons as well but apparently that's just far too complicated for people and causes fights

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It is nothing exciting honestly.
They did with a lv80 ShB dungeon 2nd boss where you have to interact with the seedling and not make it sprout (The Cosmos dungeon thing) as an example

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That's not the issue, it's more that interactive doors and such are just a waste of time. Like, you can see that in HW dungeons, oh wow, you need to stop to wait 3 seconds to pick up the key that only drops when you clear all mobs in previous section and then wait 3 seconds to open the door. Now its just door opening when you clear all mobs. For 'mechanics' that require interaction, they've just been shifted away from needing to click things, which I see as a good thing, considering, like, how clunky the 'interacting with thing' is, especially with high latency or in combat.

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They're still very inconsistent with this and I wish they would just use colliders instead of requiring interaction. For example, Alzadal's Legacy and Aitiascope both have clickable transporters after the first boss. But Aitiascope also has a collider-triggered transport after the second boss (you just step on the glowy spot). The Dead Ends require to click on all the transporters but the Aetherfont just requires you to step on the transporters.

Clickables might have made sense in certain early dungeons because the transporter might be clickable while there are still enemies trying to hit you (Cutter's Cry, Praetorium), but it doesn't make sense in later dungeons where transporters are hidden until the area is safe.

If the transporter is the only way to progress, and the transporter doesn't appear until all enemies are dead, there are zero good reasons to require the transporter to be clicked--just check that the player is standing in the transporter.

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Originally Posted by Gordita

There's also the one where they say to use single target abilities on a pack of 3 mobs which is big no-no

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Originally Posted by KooriGraywolf

I think this is a big one that also needs to be updated. To encourage AoEs on mob groups

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The biggest problem here is we don’t get AoE attacks until after these intro dungeons if I remember correctly. We need those skills much earlier, before these dungeons. The tutorials doesn’t have this because we don’t have the skill yet, so they give us single target instructions.

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Originally Posted by Heroman3003

That's not the issue, it's more that interactive doors and such are just a waste of time. Like, you can see that in HW dungeons, oh wow, you need to stop to wait 3 seconds to pick up the key that only drops when you clear all mobs in previous section and then wait 3 seconds to open the door. Now its just door opening when you clear all mobs. For 'mechanics' that require interaction, they've just been shifted away from needing to click things, which I see as a good thing, considering, like, how clunky the 'interacting with thing' is, especially with high latency or in combat.

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Keys to doors is just silly and I can see why they'd move away from that, however, if we had something to interact with (this is a job for DPS) to prevent an influx of enemies or provide defense from a mechanic.. that would make the game far more interesting. In dungeons, at least. I don't think it's great in things like alliance raids , ie rabanastre where in the second last boss you have to interact with the circles on the floor. Many people just stand on them until someone else comes along to do it right, but if not enough people know to do it.. well it can get messy. Dungeons have become far too similar in that it's 9/10 times pull 2 packs and proceed to next area, repeat, boss. It's kinda mid design, because people just ignore mechanics. If the game required using an ounce of common sense instead of going auto pilot, it would be a lot more fun and engaging for daily content.

Honestly this game could do with a full scale revamp for the tutorials, as well as making them andatory for people to do before unlocking dungeons.