PVP need higher skill ceiling , cc , more ability.

Okay, so here's the thing with FFXIV. If there's no team or ranked play for duos and trios, it's pretty much down to luck. The skill ceiling isn't that high, so a lot of it hinges on whether your team can get it together and focus on the same target. And when you're playing with randoms, you never know if you're going to gain 100 points or lose them.

Now, about making the game solo-only: I think each class should get a bunch more abilities, make them trickier to play but also more rewarding for those who can handle it. And not just spamming damage skills, you know? We need something more creative.

For example.

Caster
They really should have a bunch of crowd control abilities like slowing, rooting, and stunning to help nail those kills easier. And man, I'd love to see interrupt mechanics like in WoW, though that might be a bit too much to ask for.

But the game will be a lot more fun. It will reward caster who can fake cast. And punish a caster who can't fake cast.

Healer
Instead of just buffing their healing powers (which would make them way too OP), why not give them more utility tools? Like, they could clear snares, stuns, slows from teammates, buff their speed and damage, blind enemies, maybe even knock them back. Just more support-style skills to make them feel more... supportive.

Tank
should be all about the frontline: super tanky, tough to take down, with a few crowd control skills to make them feel like real bruisers.

Melee
Should make melee a bit harder to play. Rewarding a melee who can find a good path. and punish melee who stupidity walk into target. (with caster buff , melee will have to play with more cautions.)

Range
It's fine for range. IMO

But overall, the game could seriously use more debuffs and crowd control effects. I'm talking slows, roots, stuns, fears, knockbacks, banishing... you name it. It would add so much more depth, making the game about smart setups and burst fights, not just non-stop damage.

Right now, the CC feels too much like PvE, where you're just whacking at anything that's have guard or purify.

The game should have more things to do. Track more CDs, Dispel friend's debuff , CC opponent more. It will make game more carriable for good skill player.

Biggest issue for any kind of interrupts is the net code.

I wouldn't mind a few more buttons though but that would require an overhaul to health pools and potencies and is a lot of work.

We already got more skills to use in the past, going back to use PvE skills 1:1 PvP skills.
Since peeps are too "dumb" to play and always crying about PvP, each adjustments were about minimizing skill pools up to 1-button within those combos..

Yeah, more peeps playing PvP now. But just coz of them series goodies, mogry tomes and mass of exp. Same time the quality of PvPers is down to zero, coz them peeps who liked PvP as it was, stopped playing this shit show.

As much as I am an avid supporter to a return of having up 16 buttons (excluding Sprint and Mount) and advancing each job's kit further, we need to understand that we cannot willy nilly add certain things to roles just because they're roles when each job within a role plays and feels different in approach and survival.

Most importantly, the overall amount of crowd control is actually quite high so to prevent things from going out of hand we cannot add (much of) it.

Caster
Black Mage

• already encompasses what you describe and is highly prevalent - Freeze Mage is the most effective way to play the job with Flare Mage being very niche.
• possible advancements could be a Thunder IV combo (Thunder I -> Thunder III -> Thunder IV) with Thunder stacks via Superflare granting x% Haste up to 10 stacks for 30 seconds. Addle maybe. based on Lv100 BLM a form of Ultima could be introduced as a high-end spell, with Fire/BlizzardIII or Despair being added. Leylines possible too, maybe Between the Lines (once per LL)

Summoner

• also happens to have a variety of CC already (Mountain Buster = BInd + 75% Heavy + Draw-in; Crimson Strike = knockback). utilizing Slipstream & Phoenix it also has good zoning tools for point fights. It also generally doesn't exchange firepower for survival and vice versa compared to Red Mage
• possible advancements could involve a group buff (Searing Light), Ruin IV integration, better Fester management and re-adding Painflare as a debilitating attack (damage reduction?)

Red Mage

• Red Mage has access to a very potent AOE silence/bind depending on choice and excels in melee combat (damage, mobility, survival options). Adding more CC seems unnecessary.
• more interesting additions would be more dual-shift tools and some independent mitigation options from White Shift. More of the weaponskills being added would also fit better. "MAYBE" Vercure.

Healer
- sounds alright but don't go overboard. Add some extra damage option to SCH, some extra heal option to SGE, make WHM less clunky with Cure II and add an extra attack and AST could use... honestly dont know about AST.

Tank
Sounds okay, but again let's not go overboard - Gunbreaker already is unbelievably tanky so we cannot give tanks the same things across the board. Here some ideas to advance the jobs:
PLD
- add Intervention with 25s recast, -15% mitigation for 8s and regen totalling 12000 HP (3x 4000).
- extra CD "Sentinel" that grants basic mitigation (lets say -20%) and grants a buff that the next Holy Sheltron or Intervention gets a bonus to their non-mitigation effects (Holy Sheltron HP shield, Knight's Benediction).
- Guardian (Cover) no longer prevents Elixir interruption, but gains -20% damage taken from transferred damage only.
- Add Holy Spirit at 2 stacks damaging for 8000, 15s recharge. Holy Spirit triggering Sacred Claim heals for double the amount of Sacred Claim (3000 -> 6000), Confiteor grants a free cast of Holy Spirit (Divine Might).

WAR
- independent mitigation tool (Vengeance, but on a relatively long CD like 30-45s),
- replace Storm's Path with Steel Cyclone for better Bloodwhetting Synergy (same damage, just 5y AOE)
- Shake it Off as a utility tool to provide a shield and interact with something from the enemy (maybe old effect from Stormblood, like reacting to CC with a bigger shield similar to Aquaveil).
- Adding Infuriate / Upheaval as possible extra actions for debuffs or a CD reset.

DRK
- add a non-Salted Earth mitigation but keeping it unique; Reprisal for -20% dmg dealt would apply well here.
- Edge of Shadow as a CD to kickstart a buff or debuff that you can build up, not necessarily to deal more damage.
- Carve and Spit as a new damage cooldown.

GNB
- more interactivity with the junctions. Make Draw & Junction reset Junctioned Cast (Nebula, Aurora, Blasting Zone) to encourage active swapping.
- Add more actions with Junction dependency like Bowshock/Fated Circle.
- An independent, weaker mitigation tool (Camouflage) maybe OR make the Junctioned Cast tools available independent of Junction, but power up with the right junction:

Tank -> Turns Camouflage into Nebula
Healer -> Turns Aurora into Heart of Corundum
DPS -> Turns Danger Zone into Blasting Zone

Melee & Ranged, no input.


More debuffs and CC is ok, but moderation is important and the game should not play like a slide-show. It is already at a point where an addition of global Fetter Ward for everyone + more damage mitigation (buff or debuff types) could be necessary to reduce the lethality of CC chaining.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

As much as I am an avid supporter to a return of having up 16 buttons (excluding Sprint and Mount) and advancing each job's kit further, we need to understand that we cannot willy nilly add certain things to roles just because they're roles when each job within a role plays and feels different in approach and survival.

Most importantly, the overall amount of crowd control is actually quite high so to prevent things from going out of hand we cannot add (much of) it.

---

I understand you.

Compare to success pvp mmo like world of warcraft. wow have so much more cc , control and very high skill ceiling.

The key is more cc and more dispel/buff from healer (to help mitigate lot of cc)
Will both make class that have cc harder to play , healer that have dispel harder to play. But both class will reward to good player.

It seem too much cc. But compare to world of warcraft's ability in pvp its so different.

I'm long time pvper both in ffxiv and wow (i play both game)
In wow you have like 30+ skills. Frost mage alone have 6-7 skills to just CC and Slow the opponent.

I think it will make game more intesting , and good player can carry a bad team sometime.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JokoCGN

We already got more skills to use in the past, going back to use PvE skills 1:1 PvP skills.
Since peeps are too "dumb" to play and always crying about PvP, each adjustments were about minimizing skill pools up to 1-button within those combos..

Yeah, more peeps playing PvP now. But just coz of them series goodies, mogry tomes and mass of exp. Same time the quality of PvPers is down to zero, coz them peeps who liked PvP as it was, stopped playing this shit show.

---

Totally agreed.

Game are too easy. and lot of good player (from ss1 or feast) already stop playing this mode. Because low skill ceiling , no party search , very disappoint teammate). Game can't even chat to talk about a plan , what to do. Try to prevent toxic with chat ? people still spam Nice Job! Everyday.

CC can't compare to wow's pvp in term of fun , challenging , high skill ceiling at all. sadge.

Just Delete PVP and bring back Feast and maybe this game will thrive again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriKE_SC2

Totally agreed.

Game are too easy. and lot of good player (from ss1 or feast) already stop playing this mode. Because low skill ceiling , no party search , very disappoint teammate). Game can't even chat to talk about a plan , what to do. Try to prevent toxic with chat ? people still spam Nice Job! Everyday.

CC can't compare to wow's pvp in term of fun , challenging , high skill ceiling at all. sadge.

---

Heavensward Feast/Frontline was a totally different World from what we have now. We don't even have Actual Healers or Tanks anymore just because a few people were unable to play the Jobs with their additional pvp skills... or at all TBH.
I used to be a SCH/WHM/WAR. I made my first Top 100 as SCH in Season 2 when it was still a healer.

Now 2 Full roles have been completely removed because a FEW people had anxiety to play them.
I currently only play Frontlines and usually only with my Wife. Problem is that she loses the drive to play even that because of the Premade Cancer. The moment a Premade is in the Game, you play for second place. we went as far as switching Datacenters just so we can avoid them.

One of the biggest Problems now in the Game, to me at least, is that everybody is responsible for their own survival now. If you get pulled in by a DRK you better hope the Networking Gods are with you or the Damage will get counted before your shields damage reduction. I can't save them anymore, i simply do not have any healing tools to save multiple people. I can MAYBE save one and only if i play Astro and spam all 4 heals at the one person i try to save.

In the End, i really do not know why i am no longer allowed to be a healer in the Games PVP anymore.

Because the healer paradigm/meta was a broken dumpster fire.

If you want to have better pvp you have to force coordination. Right, now you can unga bunga in certain circumstances quite easily. More CC would make that even worse.

If you want to have cooperation, increase hp pools or reduce damage and remove 100% SAM LB damage or alter the way it procs.

Play ranked if you want to see how cooperation and teamplay is required to win, but perhaps the problem is that it doesn't translate at all below crystal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Play ranked if you want to see how cooperation and teamplay is required to win, but perhaps the problem is that it doesn't translate at all below crystal.

---

It's not, not even at crystal rank.

Good luck winning in crystal without a team cooperating into bursts or defending each other, for the most obvious ones.

Unless the opposite team is also composed of the same uncooperative monkeys I guess, then it levels the field somehow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Play ranked if you want to see how cooperation and teamplay is required to win, but perhaps the problem is that it doesn't translate at all below crystal.

---

I'm top 12 crystal in elemental JP. and i have multiple character. It's still messy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Because the healer paradigm/meta was a broken dumpster fire.

---

Still more balanced than the "Dump everything on DRK-pull Meta"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriKE_SC2

I understand you.

Compare to success pvp mmo like world of warcraft. wow have so much more cc , control and very high skill ceiling.

The key is more cc and more dispel/buff from healer (to help mitigate lot of cc)
Will both make class that have cc harder to play , healer that have dispel harder to play. But both class will reward to good player.

It seem too much cc. But compare to world of warcraft's ability in pvp its so different.

I'm long time pvper both in ffxiv and wow (i play both game)
In wow you have like 30+ skills. Frost mage alone have 6-7 skills to just CC and Slow the opponent.

I think it will make game more intesting , and good player can carry a bad team sometime.

---

Healer used to have dispel that can target teammates before pvp rework., and only healer got the dispel. I played healer, and l can tell you now if something goes wrong, you are the first to be blamed. I don't remember how many times l got pinged in a pvp discord and told that l am trash and go play something else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Araxes

Still more balanced than the "Dump everything on DRK-pull Meta"

---

Are we talking about frontlines?

It did but everybody complained that it was too hard, now you're stuck with it, deal with it. this game is ***

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Are we talking about frontlines?

---

Well, obviously. There is no other pvp mode thats constantly "alive". I also mentioned in my post that i currently play only Frontlines with my Wife.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valence

Good luck winning in crystal without a team cooperating into bursts or defending each other, for the most obvious ones.

Unless the opposite team is also composed of the same uncooperative monkeys I guess, then it levels the field somehow.

---

Cooperation is low at every level. On Crystal, you can't even get people to hit the 1 marker, let alone burst a target at the same time.

Yet it happens on a regular basis, but not in every team either. This is where you kinda know already which team is going to win from the first engagement when one does and not the other. Can't speak for how it is on NA though, never tried playing there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StriKE_SC2

Okay, so here's the thing with FFXIV. If there's no team or ranked play for duos and trios, it's pretty much down to luck. The skill ceiling isn't that high, so a lot of it hinges on whether your team can get it together and focus on the same target. And when you're playing with randoms, you never know if you're going to gain 100 points or lose them.

Now, about making the game solo-only: I think each class should get a bunch more abilities, make them trickier to play but also more rewarding for those who can handle it. And not just spamming damage skills, you know? We need something more creative.

For example.

Caster
They really should have a bunch of crowd control abilities like slowing, rooting, and stunning to help nail those kills easier. And man, I'd love to see interrupt mechanics like in WoW, though that might be a bit too much to ask for.

But the game will be a lot more fun. It will reward caster who can fake cast. And punish a caster who can't fake cast.

Healer
Instead of just buffing their healing powers (which would make them way too OP), why not give them more utility tools? Like, they could clear snares, stuns, slows from teammates, buff their speed and damage, blind enemies, maybe even knock them back. Just more support-style skills to make them feel more... supportive.

Tank
should be all about the frontline: super tanky, tough to take down, with a few crowd control skills to make them feel like real bruisers.

Melee
Should make melee a bit harder to play. Rewarding a melee who can find a good path. and punish melee who stupidity walk into target. (with caster buff , melee will have to play with more cautions.)

Range
It's fine for range. IMO

But overall, the game could seriously use more debuffs and crowd control effects. I'm talking slows, roots, stuns, fears, knockbacks, banishing... you name it. It would add so much more depth, making the game about smart setups and burst fights, not just non-stop damage.

Right now, the CC feels too much like PvE, where you're just whacking at anything that's have guard or purify.

The game should have more things to do. Track more CDs, Dispel friend's debuff , CC opponent more. It will make game more carriable for good skill player.

---

You just described the feast. There's a reason it's not like that anymore, your typical FFXIV can't handle top tier gaming. FFXIV pvp = make it easier for bad players to do decent.

It would have helped immensely if we could talk before the match starts...

Agreed with all of this. With what the poster said above, it did seem like The Feast had this kind of system. Healers kept people alive and were very important for winning. Tanks would CC and use mit and lockdown a target while the DPS burned them down and the DPS did countdown callouts to coordinate.

Unfortunately, this kind of group effort has been stripped down so effectively working as a team is literally just timing LBs and going after the target with no purify/guard or low MP. Some people can't even do that right with 3/4 button skills so expecting more than that is just...yeah. It seems like they wanted this games' PvP to be more casual friendly so I guess that's why its as shallow as it is now. They succeeded in that regard by making it more accessible but anyone who wanted PvP to be a substitute for endgame or challenge is playing the wrong game here. Light Party matches in voice chat is really the closest you're ever going to get to that.

They don't even give us decent ranked rewards anymore because people who never cared or played the mode in the past complained about it.

"PVP need higher skill ceiling"

This is true, and idc really how they do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YouWereIndicted

It seems like they wanted this games' PvP to be more casual friendly so I guess that's why its as shallow as it is now. They succeeded in that regard by making it more accessible but anyone who wanted PvP to be a substitute for endgame or challenge is playing the wrong game here.

---

Pretty much. The keep making it difficult for veterans and experienced player to win against newbies and inexperienced. All the PvP knowledge doesn't matter if you don't have a cc effect and your enemy can press 1 button to heal your perfectly executed burst combo. PvP needs to be more punishing if you play poorly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Commander_Justitia

"PVP need higher skill ceiling"

This is true, and idc really how they do it.



Pretty much. The keep making it difficult for veterans and experienced player to win against newbies and inexperienced. All the PvP knowledge doesn't matter if you don't have a cc effect and your enemy can press 1 button to heal your perfectly executed burst combo. PvP needs to be more punishing if you play poorly.

---

I guess sometimes I have to remind myself that the casual playerbase is the majority and that is the way they will move towards. But yeah, it is much easier for 1 person to bring down a whole team causing a snowball than it is for 1 person to essentially "carry."

The fact Miracle of Nature still exists seems like a testament of how they want this games' PvP to move towards in terms of skill, haha.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YouWereIndicted

The fact Miracle of Nature still exists seems like a testament of how they want this games' PvP to move towards in terms of skill, haha.

---

Avatar checks out. Superior Imp gameplay.

https://i.imgflip.com/8daypj.jpg

Hahaha! That's amazing. Dang, just like that and I've already been figured out and revealed...time to go!

Feast has never been about skill ceiling but about skill floor. Once you got past the skill floor, it was always the same script no matter the game: each of the 4 members using their scripted burst on countdown for burst, ranged silencing healers, healers purifying, tanks stunning the burst target. There was very little agency, 90% of it was scripted and relied heavily on macros (increasing the skill floor issue). As long as that skill floor wasn't met, who had the better healer decided who won. If the skill floor was met, then it was who could execute their script better or had the team member that couldn't (didn't reach the skill floor) and would cripple the team to lose.