Other Job Reworks?

So we know AST and DRG are getting major reworks come 7.0 Dawntrail.

My question is what other jobs could we see maybe paladin size reworks for? I was reading allot of these forums and it seems people are pretty loud when it comes to SCH/RDM. Basically scholars kit fighting against itself and the faery ghosting etc and with red mage people are saying it’s way too busy for the little damage that it does.

Think this is true? Also what jobs do you feel will get a mini rework come 7.0.

Later gators!

For healers? In general I'd like healing tools to be more useful a small overhaul in general on healers would be a welcome change.
Sage? I just want more abilities tied to kardia usage (such as a aoe kardia, or allowing kardia to grant barriers ect). just more cooldowns around the kardia design would be intresting.
WMH, Mainly visual reworks, longer cast times for spells would be nice

Other jobs?
I hope Paladin gets a mini rework (6.3 was a thing but theirs still issues0, I think it's current design needs a lot of tuning but divine might works fine, but a lot of abilities dont really feel like they serve much purpose such as goring or Fof they could also merge some abilities at this point, fixing up cover/clemency/shield bash to all be more useful would also be neat.
I also hope Dark knight gets a major rework. I don't really know where to start though.

PLD will probably get a touch-up, as Rithy said. The 6.3 was sort of an "emergency maintenance" rework due to PLD falling (apparently) far behind the other tanks by being a sustain instead of working with the burst/2 min meta. While the current one works, it was probably at least a little bit of a rush job, so there will probably be some tweaking. Like they could do the FoF/Requiescat/Confetior combination stuff people keep asking for.

DRK is probably the single most asked for rework candidate. I'm kind of surprised they haven't mentioned it yet considering how many people want a rework for it and how often it's called a worse WAR with no identity of its own and basically "WAR, but more oGCDs in burst". It's like two people showing up to a party with the same outfit, "ONE of us needs to go change!", and of the two, WAR is the one more or less working and liked right now, so DRK is probably the one that needs to change, not to mention DRK players don't like the "simple/braindead" WAR playstyle anyway and want something more complex, for the most part.

RDM isn't a rework candidate, as there's no problem with the rotation. RDM is one of the most liked Jobs in the game right now. What RDM is more likely to get is more potency buffs. They did (finally) in 6.5 so that the Job does more competitive damage with SMN. I think that one's a tuning thing, not a mechanics/rotation thing. It doesn't need a rework, it needs potency buffs. It got some, it probably needs a few more. The bigger problem with RDM is it may be nearing "what else do we do with it?", which tends to get Jobs reworks (that was the reason SMN got a rework, and why DRG will get one, they said, because they didn't know where to go with it/what else they could add without breaking it or something).

After AST, SCH may be the next healer to change, since they've also said they don't really know where to go with it. I suspect they won't do it at the same time as they're doing AST, though, so maybe 8.0 or some 7.X patch? Not sure. SCH isn't bad, SGE just does it better, so it's more like the SMN thing where old SMN wasn't bad, it was just...a lot...and they didn't really know what else to do with it. WHM and SGE probably won't see major reworks since both are more or less pretty functional and liked right now. At least not unless they decide a paradigm shift for SGE into a more dps focused thing is in order, which...is unlikely.

BRD is probably another big change candidate. It's the least popular of the Ranged and seems to have a pretty confused identity as to what it's trying to be. It also has a lot of older elements that they've generally moved away from in design (DoTs as well as mostly proc-based gameplay; RDM has procs but they're pretty normalized making a more predictable range of damage to balance around), along with some weird legacy designs and vestigial things that don't do what they originally did, like that one ability that used to interact with lowering CDs or procing or something (I forget which) that is now just a "use on CD" button. Sidewinder, maybe? Not to mention the songs are no longer situational buffs, but things you use in a rotation, but not even on CD as the optimal rotation is weird cutting into the weaker ones and only using the full time on the better ones and optimizing based on where your GCD and spell speed come down to. It just has a lot of weird things, and while some people love them, those are probably things the Devs will want to, at the very least, "polish" sometime, if not completely rework. Whether it's a major rework or just polishing around the edges, I don't know, but BRD seems like it'd be on the table for a rework in the future as it's basically "the AST/SMN/etc" of the Ranged Phs subrole.

Rework candidates:
DRK: it's clearly too hard to balance in its current state, the ew additions were enhanced unmend, more ogcds to spam, oblation and potency on living shadow which should be deleted at the earliest convenience.
SMN: it can't go anywhere, is less of a summoner than before and is miserable to play which has really inconvenienced me for msq fights.
SGE: make it deviate significantly from the scholar template. it's silly to have two nigh-identical jobs, look how much people complain about war/drk and they're more different than this pair. Then again tanks have a louder/larger playerbase.
MCH: ew gave it drill 3. As with DRK, the "Shadowbringers good platform for further development" has lead nowhere.
BRD: make a good support job. remove everything that made it good. wonder why noone plays it.
PLD: hopefully the 6.3 rework wasn't the final version and it's just a 5.4 monk style thing.
MNK: just keep reworking it, it's bound to get into the most played job shortlist sooner or later
Healers in general: do I really need to elaborate? Would be surprised if this one came though, SE don't come across as particularly interested in the role.
SAM: it's difficult to see where this can be taken - is this not the justification SE gave for DRG/SMN?
Viper/thingywhatsit: hedging bets here, but something's bound to be funky about them. If summoner's unchanged, maybe the caster won't have the mobility to let people faceroll their keyboard and still perform optimally.
RDM: a definite maybe. something minor to allow more flexibility in the burst or a more in-depth overhaul. There will come a day when they can't just stick another finisher on its burst.
AST: again after the 7.0 rework flops due to entirely predictable complaints.

SCH is the healer in the best state at the minute. While a low bar, I would like to believe they'd prioritise the ones more in need of adjustment or do role-wide changes where necessary.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

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Huh...

Those are certainly...interesting...takes. Living Shadow is something a lot of DRK people love because of the flavor of drawing out Frey to fight with them. While the ability sucks and needs work, the idea they probably want to keep around.

The others are...equally interesting takes. I'm trying to figure out if there's one I agree with. I think BRD. I think I agree with what you said on BRD.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Rework candidates:
DRK: it's clearly too hard to balance in its current state, the ew additions were enhanced unmend, more ogcds to spam, oblation and potency on living shadow which should be deleted at the earliest

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I feel like if you gave oblation a small life steal effect (lets say 250 potency per hit, Not AOE like warrior, less of that.) It would actually be kind of a decent for a skill that fills in some gaps for TBN's nature.

I think most additions to DRK in EW have just been a after thought abilities that can be tacked on without changing rotation, hence how DRK's have so many ogcds now and whatever enhanced unmend is.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I feel like if you gave oblation a small life steal effect (lets say 250 potency per hit, Not AOE like warrior, less of that.) It would actually be kind of a decent for a skill that fills in some gaps for TBN's nature.

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I'd do it the other way round, personally: Since WAR has decided to go all in on lifesteal, rather than giving DRK another thing that'd make people go 'oh yeh, another WAR copy skill, classic' (yes I'm aware that DRK had Abyssal Drain in the past), why not have Oblation grant an Absorb shield, like TBN does now? And the same for Dark Mind, to make it useable in physical situations. Something like '20% of max HP' on DM, and '10-15% of max HP' on Oblation, and SE would be able to start to build DRK as having a separate identity from WAR: Where WAR takes the hit and heals it right back, DRK takes the hit and negates far more of it than the other tanks do (at the cost of having way less selfhealing)

I do vote RDM, while I do not play dps as much as I play healer or tank, rdm if I rarely feel to dps I would love to see some immense potency buff as Its kits fine but its damage is just so lack luster. Also off topic but honestly idk why all tanks and dps cant just do the same damage overall like how they remove the limit break damage off where as certain dps did more damage with lb than the others. If yoshi p wants variety use in all the dps/tank jobs then I say go that route. I really dont know for sure if it would be wise whether the healers do the same amount of damage or not.

BRD, and DRK are due for big changes for sure. There are some pretty neat ideas in their pvp counterparts that I hope carry over into pve. MNK, PLD, and SMN just got reworks so they just need tweaks, and to be expanded upon. I actually think BLM is a sleeper candidate for a rework as it seems to be approaching a perfect dead end like DRG. I think RDM is Fine™, but it feels like any new dps or utility ideas are still totally eclipsed by Verraise so I think Verraise needs to be nerfed, or cut to give it some breathing room.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I'd do it the other way round, personally: Since WAR has decided to go all in on lifesteal, rather than giving DRK another thing that'd make people go 'oh yeh, another WAR copy skill, classic' (yes I'm aware that DRK had Abyssal Drain in the past), why not have Oblation grant an Absorb shield, like TBN does now? And the same for Dark Mind, to make it useable in physical situations. Something like '20% of max HP' on DM, and '10-15% of max HP' on Oblation, and SE would be able to start to build DRK as having a separate identity from WAR: Where WAR takes the hit and heals it right back, DRK takes the hit and negates far more of it than the other tanks do (at the cost of having way less selfhealing)

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I feel like self healing from attacking fits dark knight, I obviously don't want dark knight to be copy and paste warrior but I do think Drk could lean a bit more off life leach then it does, which really I think DRK should still fall behind other tanks but some sustain would be fine.

The Idea that DRK would lean on shielding more sounds good, I think the only issue would be that shielding is generally just outright 1000% better in raid situations then a small bit of sustain, so the issue we would have is that if you added shielding to a lot of DRK abilities (currently) it would be the best Tank option defensively bar none.

I'm not opposed to the Barrier aspect of Dark Knight outright, but Warrior already kind of leans into Dark knights "barrier tank" Idea with AOE barriers and the small barrier you get from BW.

My Ideal tanking defensive designs may differ but I'll give you a rough Idea of where I'd want each tank defensively
Warrior: Higher Base Hp (around 20%), lots of self sustain, Short CD would be tied to a defensive or life steal (like SHB warrior), that you can't use at the same time, can grant allies the defensive ability but not life steal, Shake replaced with a enemy intimidation ability. (no barriers)
Paladin: Pretty high mitigation abilities, Holy Sheltron grants a barrier and mitigation instead of two seperate mits (15% each?), High team support, medium Sustain that can be granted to others, two raid wides, cover/clemency becoming more useful in more situations (through buffs/reworks)
Dark Knight: Good Mitigation, Lots of barriers, TBN Should feel more rewarding less punishing (increases DMG for good use instead of net neutral), gets a barrier aoe instead of DM, ok sustain (there would be a little bit of life leach).
Gunbreaker: Good allrouder, doesn't really have "barriers" outside your combo, fairly good on pretty much most things, sustain, mit ect. (maybe even base a 5%-10% hp increase)

I think if you reworked tanks defensively or one tank that way you'd have to honestly just go all the way of setting each tank with a more defined defensive kit that feels different from one another but they're also all pretty much viable.

I think BRD could use a rework tbh, I don't think I've seen anyone that genuinely enjoys the direction BRD is going in. MCH seems another likely candidate for a rework, it seems to be at a dead end in terms of design at the moment, same with SMN, there's not much design space available to either of those jobs aside from skill recolours or adding more pointless OGCDs that don't have cohesion with the kit in general due to the rigidity of their design.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I think if you reworked tanks defensively or one tank that way you'd have to honestly just go all the way of setting each tank with a more defined defensive kit that feels different from one another but they're also all pretty much viable.

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I feel like the problem with this is "But what if the others are good right now?"

PLD and GNB are honestly in pretty good spots right now, WAR's main problem is it's a bit too powerful in AOE situations. DRK is the odd man out. It'd be like looking at Casters and saying, "Well, SMN is kind of lacking right now while BLM and RDM feel good...so obviously we need to rework all three, can't do just one, we need to go all the way."

GNB is not extremely overpowered but its kit is solid and consistent. It has nothing that makes things a cakewalk, but it has the tools it needs to succeed, with a strong offensive kit and functional defensive kit.

PLD is slightly underpowered offensively but somewhat overpowered defensively, neither so much that it breaks the Job, so it works well. It has strong party utility and healing tools with Clemency, but requiring a conscious choice to forego damage if you want to be a temp healer.

WAR's kit works great. Its healing is a kind of overpowered in AOE situations due to how Raw Intuition/Nascent Flash work, but in single target fights (Extremes/Savages), that is considerably cut down to size. I still have no idea why Shake It Off got buffed, though.

Compared to those, you then have DRK. DRK has WAR's playstyle with GNB's defensive utility, and people constantly asking for it to be different than WAR...while asking for it to have WAR's tools.

I DO feel that Tanks are overall too powerful in terms of sustain right now, but I'm not sure the answer is so much "throw them all out" as it is "lower the power level of those overall tools". DRK, on the other hand, has the unique problem of needing to be/do something unique and, right now, it doesn't other than TBN.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think BRD could use a rework tbh, I don't think I've seen anyone that genuinely enjoys the direction BRD is going in. MCH seems another likely candidate for a rework, it seems to be at a dead end in terms of design at the moment, same with SMN, there's not much design space available to either of those jobs aside from skill recolours or adding more pointless OGCDs that don't have cohesion with the kit in general due to the rigidity of their design.

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I'm consistently confused by people saying SUMMONER has no design space to go in. Like, I honestly have no idea how that makes sense to people conceptually.

It's the opposite problem: It's got so much space, with the problem being the Devs needing to fill it.

The Primal system (Gemshine/Precious Brilliance/Astral Flow) is extremely open-ended, since you could do anything with it. We have just three examples, and for all they're lambasted, they're all unique. We have examples of long cast time spells, normal cast time spells, instant cast spells, and a 1-2 melee combo. Aside from that, we've also seen Ruin/Outburst repurposed (by the Demis), meaning they could extend that to Primals in the future as well to create additional effects. It is probably the single most open-ended Job in the game right now. That is the exact opposite of "not much design space available".

That's also not BRD's problem, honestly. BRD's problem is it is aimeless. Its focus is all over the place, but not in any cohesive way, making it a lot like old SMN that KIND of worked, but was a total accident of nature rather than arriving at its place through good and deliberate design decisions.

I just see this wording a lot, and it makes zero sense. SMN is probably the most open-ended Job right now due to how it is set up and what all could be added, as well as room for plenty of flavor. It could literally grab into BLU and just rob it blind of some things like Ravana's 4 hit attack (which is not much different than Garuda, yet that one is praised for...reasons; yes yes, the way it buffs, but in practice, that's how it's used). Not to mention they could someday go wild and do things like Eden double-summoning or Stocking for later (FF8 aside).

It's okay to say one doesn't like SMN because they find it too simplistic, but saying it has no design space is just...I dunno, doesn't make sense, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

I feel like the problem with this is "But what if the others are good right now?"

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The original post contained that I replied to would be that Dark Knight would get barriers more often + Mitigation, This would most certainly put Dark Knight in a league of it's own, I actually think Dark Knight defensively is already at least on par with PLD outside sustain, with how it's kit works, I think even with just how Dark mind works and oblation is it sets Dark knight up to be very good mitigation wise and stands above tanks, the only advantage PLD has is you can be more flexible with holy sheltrons or help in double tank busters more. PLD also suffers from the longest invul which infact hurts its defensive viability in a lot of situations and is more of a hinderance. You're under selling Dark Knights defensive value here which has always been pretty good (despite what I've thought in the past and others have). It's main issue is aoe survivability which barriers, not a lot of sustain, a magic only mit are the reason why it falls behind.

your Summoner/BLM/RDM comparison doesn't really make much sense to me, as Dark Knight already is on par with other tanks if not better and my whole goal wasn't to make all the tanks to dark knights levels it was to change up on how all the tanks defensively mitigate in the first place as the current design is very samey, I think the point I'm making is all tanks deserve defensive adjustments in some form or another to stand out from one another, you can do this in a way that also makes them all viable aswell. You also can't really just buff a tank defensively (like DRK) and expect it to be perfectly balanced without changing up other defensives, considering how strong Dark knight already is defensive wise.

PLD is actually defensively is very similar to gunbreaker Tbh I'd like that to change, PLD having clemency is sort of not needed in the current design of the game and cover is even more of a joke so I'll hardly count those abilities until they actually have a place in PLD's kit. Warrior is massive on sustaining others? which makes no sense to me but also has on par defensives, I think warrior could genuinely do with a defensive kit overhaul like I suggested. I've talked on how Dark Knight is actually really good defensively.

Even if you want to argue that DRK feels more clunky then other tanks and is in more need, I'd argee but why does PLD have clunky defensives also? why is warriors identity being a paladin and healing allies? I don't really understand why DRK would only get changes defensively.

Since this is in the healer thread, I'd like to chime in more for SCH.
1. Remove Physick and give the pet a low level spell to compensate or increase Embrace's potency, or have Emergency Tactics unlocked at level 30 (i know it looks like Eukrasia).

2. Increase pet movement speed. It moving at the current rate adds to the feeling of unresponsiveness.

3. Return all pet related-skills to the pet hotbar and either remove Dismiss or consolidate it with Summon pet (toggle). Better yet, have the commands be on a seperate radial UI that clearly shows what state it is currently on or when it is summoned or not.

4. Remove Seraph. The extra animation it takes to summon it before taking any action adds to the clunkiness. Not to mention when the effect expires and your base pet's summoning animation is played. Might as well give back to us Rouse.

5. Refund extra MP if we have unused stacks upon casting Aetherflow or allow us to regen MP with Energy Drain, once again.

6. Make us the more burst healing barrier healer, and SGE more mitigation barrier healer.

7. Pet idling when no apparent healing is needed or when the SCH can take care of it, also needs to be addressed. Might i suggest that we can toggle the pet to deal damage, think Cleric Stance but for the pet only.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I feel like if you gave oblation a small life steal effect (lets say 250 potency per hit, Not AOE like warrior, less of that.) It would actually be kind of a decent for a skill that fills in some gaps for TBN's nature.

I think most additions to DRK in EW have just been a after thought abilities that can be tacked on without changing rotation, hence how DRK's have so many ogcds now and whatever enhanced unmend is.

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Medic tanks are cringe and diminish the need for healers, and take away from healer gameplay. We're tanks, not healers. Since we're all going to be the same job with different animations they should just nerf all the tank sustain down to Drk's level. War in particular is just comical in it's amount of healing and shielding and is in need of nerfs.