This is the biggest reason why Tanks and Healers are designed to be braindead easy.

Because we're all bored at this point, and Tekken 8 and Dragon's Dogma 2 doesn't come out until next year, we can indulge in talking about more big drama.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eYollR-uMw&t=0s

Pretty entertaining video. But you don't need to watch it. This is just one of those many scenarios where a tank is doing one of the endgame dungeons from Endwalker and doesn't understand how enmity works.

The tank causes the SMN to die during trash mobs due to them not using AOE on mobs. SMN simply asked for the tank to use AOE, immediately gets gaslighted by the obnoxious white knight SAM who is claiming the SMN is being toxic and pulled ahead (which they didn't pull ahead, and there is proof on fflogs). Just another typical classic moment where the ***hole is trying to look like the good guy by protecting the bad player who is griefing the entire party by choosing to be tank and not holding enmity on mobs.

There's been a lot of talk about healer rotations needing to be more interesting and tanks just being all the same and straight forward. I'd say just keep it that way. Just save us all the drama. Tanks and healers are so easy, and it's just embarrassing when players can't even do the bare minimal. It just take one button to take all aggro. Just turn on your tank stance, hit one of your AOE buttons, and now you got the entire mob attacking you as a tank.

Given the fact that there are still players griefing people in endgame content as either a healer or a tank, I'd say keep the same. If they're any more complex, more people are just gonna be falsely reported after trying to get the tanks and healers to play properly in endgame content.

I don't understand this ideology of a certain group of FFXIV players that think that immediately white knighting a player and gaslighting the player who is trying to give simple advice, makes them immediately a morally superior person by encouraging bad players to continue griefing other players in endgame content. But because GM's don't understand what is actually 'harassment', it's the reason why a huge majority try to keep their mouth shut and even would much rather leave the dungeon, take the 30 minute penalty, and just go for another expert roulette dungeon run.

So keep tanks and healers braindead. Apparently, it's too hard to hit one or two buttons ONCE every trash mob.

Yeah, people are griefing and rude because of job kits and not because they were never told that they should respect others, even strangers. Good thread.

No matter how hard they simplify things there's always always going to be a more common denominator. At some point they have to put their foot down.

Should I bring up the completely feckless dps I've encountered in df where the tank and I were outperforming them on all metrics, or where it's literally been me and people who couldn't even live through a raidwide with shake and nascent. Why not just have the game play itself and we can all afk in limsa while our retainers bring back malicious manderville mementorites or whatever the current must-have item is?

Wait... the tanks first name was Ren?!

Is this the ultimate plot twist before us? ;)

Edit, it gets worse:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byoXZZb3QhY

Also, Mane posted logs to confirm that he wasn't actually pulling ahead =(

Tanking/Healing = Easy - isnt true for everyone!
A new player wouldnt find it it all that easy.
They are still LEARNING the game, their role and mechanics on top of that.
(Tanking/Healing becomes easy overtime with expereince)
- Boosting is a thing, so you can experience such players at high lvl content too!

Note: I'm talking not about this specific instance..
because i feel there is to little information to go about..
I'm talking about new/unexpereinced players.
Note: You also have trolls - who intentionally plays bad to troll.

It happened to me once in a dungeon. Tank used single target only and I as the SMN got the agro and then killed, this happened 3 times. After the third death, I revived at the beginning of the dungeon then quit. I took the 30-minute penalty and went to make some coffee and toast.
I do not have the patience for griefers. The tooltips are there, you can read them + the Hall of the Novice has 2 lessons/dungeons/whatever on this exact subject.

With the current design they should just make Tanks and Healers into DPS with few extra buttons related to their role, that's how they are played at high level anyway so might as well gut the overbloated kits in order to make them more fun to play (like most DPS).

It would help if we didn't coddle up our newbies too much. AOE is basics since Hall of Novice training (which apparently isn't mandatory).

It is 100% okay to expect Hall of Novice basics in a Lv90 dungeon and anyone endorsing or enabling the lack of pressing a 2-step-AOE combo for enmity needs to reevaluate how healthy it is to be OK with the lackthereof.

Don't settle for players doing below bare minimum.

Tanking can be easy, depending on the class... Most specifically, WAR's self-heal shenanigans...

But getting a tank to 90, even if they bought the level boost, it only takes you to 80 so they likely HAD to tank some dungeons, so they should know at least the basics. But sadly griefing like that doesn't violate the rules.

The way the other guy is so defensive about it is a dead giveaway they're both grifing/trolling. There's litrally no way for a 'newbie' to be that high level, even with a lv boost.

You're right that this is the reason they are braindead easy, but I can say what I used to witness when they were more complicated:

• A PLD spamming the Rage of Halone (enmity combo) and never using Royal Authority or Goring Blade.
• As a PLD, I was once attacked for "not aiming my shield" at enemies which used to be required to block them (which was impossible because they were huge enemies in multiple directions that you couldn't move back to bring in front of you).
• A huge percentage of tanks using enmity stance 100% of the time even though a lot of raider tanks would use their damage stance almost 100% of the time.
• (In youtube videos and streams) I've always seen players not even pressing damage buffs like Fight or Flight.
• Obviously, to this day, they don't press damage reduction abilities sometimes.
• (In videos and streams) I've often seen people struggle to complete their 1-2-3 combo and instead do 1-2-1 because moving out of a red circle distracted them that much.

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GM's don't understand what is actually 'harassment'

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Yes, they do. It is all about how you word it. It is definitely harassment to try to tell another player what to do. You can make a polite suggestion such as "if you use total eclipse, you can make all of the enemies attack you in one hit :)", but saying "do this, now" is an order and saying "you're bad for not doing that" is rude and is harassment.

It's also difficult to give polite advice in a dungeon because you don't know the person, so blurting out advice can be interpreted as "blurting out aggression" because they don't know you. It's easier to just give advice to people you know outside of the dungeon, such as FC members or players in the Novice Network, because they know you are trying to help since you are less of a stranger.

My mindset is that, yes, a player may not be doing well, but they are usually in an FC or the Novice Network and will, over time, ask questions in those locations and learn things from experience. I don't necessarily need to teach them it then and there, because in time they will learn it anyway and it's easy to carry them.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Tanking/Healing = Easy - isnt true for everyone!
A new player wouldnt find it it all that easy.
They are still LEARNING the game, their role and mechanics on top of that.
(Tanking/Healing becomes easy overtime with expereince)
- Boosting is a thing, so you can experience such players at high lvl content too!

Note: I'm talking not about this specific instance..
because i feel there is to little information to go about..
I'm talking about new/unexpereinced players.
Note: You also have trolls - who intentionally plays bad to troll.

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The Lunar Subterrane is literally the last msq dungeon you can unlock right now. You would still need to go through 10 levels, which includes the endwalker story and patch content.

All you have to do is activate stance and press one aoe button, not even do the combo, not including using defensives, to hold aggro. There is actually no excuse as to why he couldn't even do the absolute bare minimum of his role. Stop defending incompetence.

Events like this are epitome of the evidence on you will absolutely never get the whole populus of players to do even the bare minimum no matter how hard you simplify pve job design.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

The Lunar Subterrane is literally the last msq dungeon you can unlock right now. You would still need to go through 10 levels, which includes the endwalker story and patch content.

All you have to do is activate stance and press one aoe button, not even do the combo, not including using defensives, to hold aggro. There is actually no excuse as to why he couldn't even do the absolute bare minimum of his role. Stop defending incompetence.

Events like this are epitome of the evidence on you will absolutely never get the whole populus of players to do even the bare minimum no matter how hard you simplify pve job design.

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I advise you to read everything before replying...
A new player would have improved and learned..
If you are dealing with a troll - that's a different story.
( players that intentionally plays bad to ruin for others )

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Tanking/Healing = Easy - isnt true for everyone!
A new player wouldnt find it it all that easy.
They are still LEARNING the game, their role and mechanics on top of that.
(Tanking/Healing becomes easy overtime with expereince)
- Boosting is a thing, so you can experience such players at high lvl content too!

Note: I'm talking not about this specific instance..
because i feel there is to little information to go about..
I'm talking about new/unexpereinced players.
Note: You also have trolls - who intentionally plays bad to troll.

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Why are you still condoning people who have never touched a single game in their life as a base point ? Do you really think people are that stupid ? Yes a new player would find it supremely easy, because the gameplay is literally one button. These takes...

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

I don't understand this ideology of a certain group of FFXIV players that think that immediately white knighting a player and gaslighting the player who is trying to give simple advice, makes them immediately a morally superior person by encouraging bad players to continue griefing other players in endgame content. But because GM's don't understand what is actually 'harassment', it's the reason why a huge majority try to keep their mouth shut and even would much rather leave the dungeon, take the 30 minute penalty, and just go for another expert roulette dungeon run.

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Not like I have much to base this on, but I think most of the blame falls on the fact that "negative" toxicity has been so frowned upon and, at least in my own experiences, curb-stomped into the ground through timely moderation that the only recourse most undesirables have to do their thing is through "positive" toxicity. A sort of arms-race to see who can gaslight the other person into doing/saying something reportable first. Maybe that's not always the case, but in 9 out of every 10 Alliance Raid roulettes I get, for example, it very much is.

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

So keep tanks and healers braindead. Apparently, it's too hard to hit one or two buttons ONCE every trash mob.

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Someone encounters a bad DPS: "They need to read their tooltips, practice, and git gud."

Someone encounters a bad tank or healer: "Please to be dumbing down their kits so that they can't possibly do something wrong."

I'll never understand this double standard.

Surely by the very nature of someone being new, it's a given that they do not know everything and have room to improve. Therefore shielding them from growth or criticism is more harmful than someone getting a bit frustrated and not being polite enough in reminding them of this fact.

So basically OP is bored and wants to stir up drama. Nothing really to see here.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Why are you still condoning people who have never touched a single game in their life as a base point ? Do you really think people are that stupid ? Yes a new player would find it supremely easy, because the gameplay is literally one button. These takes...

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Some new players boost their character to catch up with friends who are max level..
Can be they're new to the role,but not the game..ect
The gameplay isn't 1 button, and there is more to tank/heal than just pressing buttons.

Every job has been made easier because xiv is infected with bad players? You don't say.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Some new players boost their character to catch up with friends who are max level..
Can be they're new to the role,but not the game..ect
The gameplay isn't 1 button, and there is more to tank/heal than just pressing buttons.

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Then they should be even more cognizant of the dearth of their knowledge because they paid to put themselves in that position.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Some new players boost their character to catch up with friends who are max level..
Can be they're new to the role,but not the game..ect
The gameplay isn't 1 button, and there is more to tank/heal than just pressing buttons.

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Yes it is, you could in fact clear any roulette dungeon by just pressing 1 aoe skill with no trouble, there is absolutely nothing deep or arcane about tanking or healing in roulette dungeons, there's no need to know anything, you could treat it like you are doing Sastasha for the first time and succeed all the way to the latest max level dungeon.
I know because I've seen it all while getting my 2k mentor roulettes done and I met very few troglodytes like the ones in the OP video, I mean it's cool if you mit, but it's not necessary, not even necessary to do decent damage, all you need to do is hit that aoe button that keeps aggro and sit there.
If they can't do that there's no excuses, they need to be called out and filtered if they don't immediately learn.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So basically OP is bored and wants to stir up drama. Nothing really to see here.

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Everyone's bored, that's what the mid-patch ennui does: makes everyone focus on petty drama for some excitement. ¯\_( ◉ 3 ◉ )_/¯
Granted from what I've read, the tank is known for this kind of behavior and is an assumed trolled.
The SAM seems be enjoying his 2-minutes of clout after being noticed by Xeno. (*≧▽≦)ﾉｼ))

Game hard: people have more fun, shitters exist.
Game easy and homogenised: people no longer have fun, shitters still exist.

/shrug

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Yes it is, you could in fact clear any roulette dungeon by just pressing 1 aoe skill with no trouble, there is absolutely nothing deep or arcane about tanking or healing in roulette dungeons, there's no need to know anything, you could treat it like you are doing Sastasha for the first time and succeed all the way to the latest max level dungeon.
I know because I've seen it all while getting my 2k mentor roulettes done and I met very few troglodytes like the ones in the OP video, I mean it's cool if you mit, but it's not necessary, not even necessary to do decent damage, all you need to do is hit that aoe button that keeps aggro and sit there.
If they can't do that there's no excuses, they need to be called out and filtered if they don't immediately learn.

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I can see how u can get away with beeing tank/dps and only spam one aoe button, but not as a healer.
Anyway nobody would play THAT bad unless they're trolling.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Someone encounters a bad DPS: "They need to read their tooltips, practice, and git gud."

Someone encounters a bad tank or healer: "Please to be dumbing down their kits so that they can't possibly do something wrong."

I'll never understand this double standard.

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It's simple, tanks and healers are 2nd class citizens. The dps is the real hero here, it is what the majority plays and it's the job this game is catered to, the rest is just there to facilitate the dps player's fun.
The dumbing down of jobs wasn't even a real topic until it started to affect the dps too.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's simple, tanks and healers are 2nd class citizens. The dps is the real hero here, it is what the majority plays and it's the job this game is catered to, the rest is just there to facilitate the dps player's fun.
The dumbing down of jobs wasn't even a real topic until it started to affect the dps too.

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they started dumbing down tanks and healers in the first place to make queues pop faster for dps >.>

This right here. Nobody would play that bad unless they are trolling. Doing your AOE is in hall of novice. THIS HAPPENED IN THE LATEST ENDGAME DUNGEON. Clearly a troll

i mean just read the tool tips

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's simple, tanks and healers are 2nd class citizens. The dps is the real hero here, it is what the majority plays and it's the job this game is catered to, the rest is just there to facilitate the dps player's fun.
The dumbing down of jobs wasn't even a real topic until it started to affect the dps too.

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Healers definitely are treated like 2nd class citizens by the dev team... They give them more options to avoid casting heals, and they just keep them at having 1 attack and 1 dot... And when it comes to the MSQ, it's not fun sitting there spamming glare at a instanced duty boss.

Healers "braindead easy"? Mao thinkings this little bits hyperbole. Mao is mostly BLM buts Mao also does little bits WHM. Mao finds being WHM SO much harder than being BLM. Is has to watch for many things! Red puddles, Boss, all Group Mates healths and conditions. If things go South, also has to find right time and place to rez Group Mate. Mao thinkings Healers jobs not easy! Maybe peoples thinkings this so because thems experienced Healers and is used to the difficulty?

High end content generally makes tanks and healers harder than dps.

Like god damn, I didnt realize how good dps players had it with these 30-40 second naps between mechanics where they dont have to do shit.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

High end content generally makes tanks and healers harder than dps.

Like god damn, I didnt realize how good dps players had it with these 30-40 second naps between mechanics where they dont have to do shit.

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Very bad take. Healers literally push one button the whole fight, and after a few pulls you know exactly the cadence at which you press an ogcd.

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Healers "braindead easy"? Mao thinkings this little bits hyperbole. Mao is mostly BLM buts Mao also does little bits WHM. Mao finds being WHM SO much harder than being BLM. Is has to watch for many things! Red puddles, Boss, all Group Mates healths and conditions. If things go South, also has to find right time and place to rez Group Mate. Mao thinkings Healers jobs not easy! Maybe peoples thinkings this so because thems experienced Healers and is used to the difficulty?

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You just answered yourself. Sure, if you just heal once in a while, it could be challenging, which is fine by me. If you're a healer main, one that has been doing most content? No I don't expect that you would it so - mind you "braindead easy" can always change if your party isn't up to the task ;)

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Originally Posted by Eraden

Healers "braindead easy"? Mao thinkings this little bits hyperbole. Mao is mostly BLM buts Mao also does little bits WHM. Mao finds being WHM SO much harder than being BLM. Is has to watch for many things! Red puddles, Boss, all Group Mates healths and conditions. If things go South, also has to find right time and place to rez Group Mate. Mao thinkings Healers jobs not easy! Maybe peoples thinkings this so because thems experienced Healers and is used to the difficulty?

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I feel like maybe the problem is healers have been made too easy for people that enjoy healing but they're still challenging/maybe overwhelming for non-healer mains. Especially considering a lot of levelling content for healers is more demanding than when they have their full kit. I'm a bad bad bad terrible healer but that's a me thing and I'm just incompatible with role but I feel like the healer role shouldn't be catered towards people like me over the people that actually enjoy the role. I suppose it's an inherent problem with the idea that we can do everything on one character because the truth is not all of us will be able to do everything regardless of if we have access to it. Lots of people say the same thing about Blm even though you and I might feel waaaay more comfortable with the kabooms. I'd be just as upset as they are if they tried to make Blm appeal to everyone by idk removing AF timers or making all of our casts instant. This is the thing I feel like the changes to healer since say SB have been made with non-healers in mind and this is why actual healers are bored/dissatisfied and they end up calling all the changes braindead because there's been nothing added -for them- for like......years at this point

Tanks have lost so much responsibility over time, very little boss positioning with the teleports to middle, practically no threat management outside of swap for buster. They are just DPS who occasionally press some AoE mitigation with vastly more boring kits than DPS.

Healers rely entirely on how well the group performs, the less mistakes people make the more you can autopilot and press your basic attack since there's nothing else to do. Instead of trying to keep tanks up like in more traditional RPGs you are glorified babysitter who browses phone until hell breaks loose, if it ever will.

They are trying to get more people to play these roles while making them more and more powerful yet somehow also more boring. It says quite a lot when they are more fun to play in PvP than in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Very bad take. Healers literally push one button the whole fight, and after a few pulls you know exactly the cadence at which you press an ogcd.

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So you're saying a fight is easier when you've run it before and you know how your buttons line up to it? Damn bro, I'm blown away by that as if thats somehow not true for DPS or Tank.

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

Because we're all bored at this point,...

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Load up the video.
Pause immediately.
Read the chat.

Someone made a good comment basically pointing out the SMN is in the wrong. It seems he was running ahead, face pulling stuff, then complaining the Tank wasn't pulling it off him, didn't realize the Tank was a sprout, started calling everyone names, insisting people were "griefing" him when it sounds like he was the one griefing the party, and conducted himself as a total butt.

And good god, I've never watched a Xeno video before. He has some amazingly bad takes! It's...kind of impressive, honestly HOW BAD his takes are. I need some popcorn. His takes are kind of like a train crash - horrible, yet you can't look away.

EDIT:

On the other hand, now I know what this Cole Evyx video was about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHIYr3Hwmq8

...and the dude has a WAY better take. Basically: If you run into people that you don't get along with, just minimize your time with them. Like an NPC that talks too much and you just want to get the quest done. Treat RL/games the same way. Don't be a Karen, just finish the encounter and move on in life, or if it's too much for you to take, drop party.

As Cole gives in his example, if you're at the pharmacist, and they're being kind of a dick...just go with it, get your medicine, say thank you, and leave the crazy person to their devices; don't be their Jiminey Cricket. Just be polite, and if someone isn't listening to your "advice", zip it. Unsolicited advice isn't constructive, it's rude. And if the situation's bad enough, just leave the party.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Yes, they do. It is all about how you word it. It is definitely harassment to try to tell another player what to do. You can make a polite suggestion such as "if you use total eclipse, you can make all of the enemies attack you in one hit :)", but saying "do this, now" is an order and saying "you're bad for not doing that" is rude and is harassment.

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Also: ALL of this.

I've given advice to people in dungeon runs before, and never once been called names, had people quit, get a vote kick, etc. Because I'm always really polite about it, and phrase it as a suggestion. It's extremely telling to me that the people posting these kinds of stories always leave out the part where they were "offering advice", or we only get a little clipped portion of it, and it's never polite.

As you say, "You should have an ability called 'Total Eclipse'. It hits everything in a circle around you, so when there are lots of enemies, you can run to the middle of them and use that over and over and it will let you attack them all down easily." That's polite, it's advice, it's a suggestion, it's not a command, and it's not rude.

When people post these things, they tend to not be that. It tends to be an order, or belittling, and often they will immediately attack people if anyone else in the party calls them out for being rude or if the person doesn't listen to what they say. That's not advice, that's harassment.

Meanwhile, I ran a dungeon once as the Tank with three sprouts and in the 30 min run taught them how to use DoTs and what DoTs were (SMN, BRD, and SCH back in HW), as well as Cleric Stance. I got 3 comms for that run, not one person told me I didn't play their sub, no posts were made on Reddit, and there was no YouTube and forum drama. And that's hardly the only time I've explained things to people and taught them some useful information about their Job. Most people do want to improve - not be Ultimate raiders, but be decent - but if folks are being rude to them, it doesn't go well. And if you were running ahead pulling stuff instead of letting the newbie Tank first time dungeon guy do it, you need to check yourself.

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Originally Posted by Derio

This right here. Nobody would play that bad unless they are trolling. Doing your AOE is in hall of novice. THIS HAPPENED IN THE LATEST ENDGAME DUNGEON. Clearly a troll

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Actually, I'm curious: Do we have any stats on how many people actually HAVE done hall of the novice?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Load up the video.
Pause immediately.
Read the chat.

Someone made a good comment basically pointing out the SMN is in the wrong. It seems he was running ahead, face pulling stuff, then complaining the Tank wasn't pulling it off him, didn't realize the Tank was a sprout, started calling everyone names, insisting people were "griefing" him when it sounds like he was the one griefing the party, and conducted himself as a total butt.

And good god, I've never watched a Xeno video before. He has some amazingly bad takes! It's...kind of impressive, honestly HOW BAD his takes are. I need some popcorn. His takes are kind of like a train crash - horrible, yet you can't look away.

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Not being antagonistic by correcting you, but I'm pretty sure the tank wasn't aoeing so smn was always going to rip aggro when the tank isn't doing their aoe to get aggro on the mobs. They just plunged in and went straight into single target.

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Originally Posted by OgruMogru

Not being antagonistic by correcting you, but I'm pretty sure the tank wasn't aoeing so smn was always going to rip aggro when the tank isn't doing their aoe to get aggro on the mobs. They just plunged in and went straight into single target.

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It's possible, but when the SAM said he was "running ahead", that kind of implies he's moving ahead of the group and pulling things. Some DPSers feel that's their right, if not responsibility (the people who reject "you spank it you tank it" and think everyone else in the party is their slave and that they, alone, get to call the shots for the party's pace, size of pulls, etc). Note that the SMN didn't deny he was doing so. He instead said that it didn't matter. I think that's also where the "stop running" comment came from, that either the SMN was running ahead of the group or the SMN was getting agro then running all over the place, preventing the Tank from pulling off of them.

If I'm in a group and the Tank isn't AOEing...I don't AOE. But that aside, I also don't run ahead and pull things, then complain that the Tank didn't get them off me. It sounds like that's what was happening here.

Now, there is an issue in that so many attacks do AOE now (like all of SMN's summons do) and so can't be avoided, but that's also true of Tank abilities like Circle of Scorn or Double Down. So even doing their single target rotations, Tanks should be pulling agro in their radius, right? Unless the DPSer is running off and then running around and not going to the Tank.

We'd need to see the video, and we'd also need to see the Tank's side (if they are a really new player, they may legitimately not know or have realized rotations). Instead, we're getting a snapshot from one person's side who is trying to belittle and publicly shame other people. I'm always VERY cautious when I see only one person's side of ANY story.

As Cole Evyx points out, this is probably not a clear cut case of griefing.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Wait... the tanks first name was Ren?!

Is this the ultimate plot twist before us? ;)

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lol, thought that myself at first. Sorry, but no. I don't Tank random stuff anymore, and I use AOE rotations - they're easier than single-target anyway.