FFXIV Discussion thread on healers having tank-like DPS kits

Stumbled across this thread on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...ts_shifted_to/

...it appears the views here aren't exactly universal, even looking at FFXIV_Discussion.

It seems early on they were downvoting a comment saying more damage rotation was a bad idea, but this rebounded and it's the most liked comment I've found so far (as of this moment, 84 likes). A lot of posts saying to add more DPS actions are down in the single digits while some others talking about how that's a bad idea or would drive people out of the healer role have double digit likes (another I saw had 14). And people there are saying FFXIV_Discussion is a pretty insular bubble that overestimates the popularity of more DPS actions/complexity on Healers. Clearly they've never been here, lol, as that place, while still a bubble, is tame by comparison.

It would seem my view isn't isolated at all. Maybe they just need people there telling them why it's such a great idea, I dunno, but...

;)Once again, you have an extremely selective interpretation of the thread comments lol. No, considering there are literally millions of players, I doubt that you are the lone voice saying that a "1.2,3" tank rotation or even extra DPS skills, weren't what they wanted for healers.

What's particularly amusing however is someone in that thread under the name of RenThras had some titillating ones . Here's a sample:



I wish more people like you frequented the official forums, because all people say there is "more damage buttons" and berate anyone who disagree. It makes me worry sometimes, reading those discussions, that the Devs will listen to those people and make a horrible mistake.

Me personally, if they gave all healers a damage rotation, I'd just quit the role. I want to be a healer, not a DPSer, otherwise I'd play...ya know...DPS Jobs. There are certainly a lot of them.

I wouldn't mind a healer (SGE was seemingly going to be this) to be "The GNB of healers" for DPS minded players, but for the love of god, the amount of people saying to make healer Jobs into budget DPSers, seemingly oblivious to the reality this would likely drive tons of people away from the role and cause a massive healer shortage continually boggles my mind.

I stopped taking downvotes on reddit seriously after I got effectively shadow banned for suggesting that Eos was a DPS gain over Selene back in ARR.

So, this "most liked" comment is on a thread discussing "healing reduced in complexity" and directly responding to "healers would have healing abilities the same way tanks have mitigation abilities."

Exactly who's arguing for that on these forums?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

;)Once again,...

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Heh, I guessed right!

Thanks for the confirmation.

I'd stand by everything that Ren Thras guy says. Seems to have a good head on his shoulders. Jokes aside, I've said the same things here. "titillating"? Hardly. I've made no effort at hiding that if healers were given DPSer rotations, I'd quit the role since I don't want to be a DPSer and if I did, I'd just play a DPS Job. The first point is entirely valid - if all the Devs see are people saying "moar DPS BUTTONZ!!!" and nothing else, they might somehow think that's what everyone believes, when clearly it isn't. That's worth taking time to oppose, and it's nice when others post saying the same, and it's true that here, most everyone demands more damage buttons and berates anyone who disagrees, not just me. Anytime someone posts in this healing forum saying the same, they get 4-6 replies within hours, if not within the hour they post, telling them they're wrong and, if they stick around trying to defend their position, in increasingly antagonistic ways. I'm the only one stubborn enough to have stuck around here in the healer subforum. As the threads in General and on FFXIV Discussion show, other people share my views. And in General, you guys berate them until they leave the conversation as well. It's really pretty toxic. I've also made no bones about me thinking there should still be a healer Job with a more engaging DPS rotation, and even Ty has said that's what it was billed as and part of the reason he's so upset with the current design. Surely thinking SGE should have more DPS actions isn't controversial? Are you saying it is?

Regardless, what did I say that was "selective"?

The most highly liked posts in that thread - since that's a thing people seem to like mentioning - are the people opposed to the idea of giving healers tank level rotations.

Clearly, there are other posters - besides that Ren Thras guy who in addition has a good head on his shoulders, is also clearly hansom and wise and makes very good points (now I'm just having fun since you decided to be a jerk) - who agree with me, which directly opposes what I'm always told here that I'm the only person who feels as I do, makes the arguments I do, and thus shouldn't be listened to.

And a couple of people there did say that FFXIV Discussion was an insular bubble, when here is even worse.

What thing was I "selective(ly) interpret(ing)", exactly?

I do find it amusing you went through the entire thread maliciously downvoting my posts, though, lol. Bit of a grudge, eh?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I stopped taking downvotes on reddit seriously after I got effectively shadow banned for suggesting that Eos was a DPS gain over Selene back in ARR.

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It's funny, because I've pointed out how it's a bad metric before, but people keep using it to suggest their positions are strong, so I think it's fair play to do the same in reverse.

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

So, this "most liked" comment is on a thread discussing "healing reduced in complexity" and directly responding to "healers would have healing abilities the same way tanks have mitigation abilities."

Exactly who's arguing for that on these forums?

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1) Didn't say anyone was.

2) A common refrain here - which some posters there said as well - is "We can't increase healing complexity, because then we'd have to change every encounter in the game and/or casual healers couldn't clear any content (despite talking about Extremes/Savages, not casual content)". Those are arguments people HAVE used here before.

3) Regardless, that isn't the point. The POINT is that there are other people that oppose giving healers tank-level rotations, something people here were asking for and insisting I was alone in opposing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

So, this "most liked" comment is on a thread discussing "healing reduced in complexity" and directly responding to "healers would have healing abilities the same way tanks have mitigation abilities."

Exactly who's arguing for that on these forums?

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No idea, however I would have thought that "hansom and wise" wouldn't have put that much weight on that post in any case given https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6378444, also as Sebazy points out half the time downvotes are used for all kinds of reasons. Most people don't dwell on them ;)

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

No idea, however I would have thought that "hansom and wise" wouldn't have put that much weight on that post in any case given https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6378444, also as Sebazy points out half the time downvotes are used for all kinds of reasons. Most people don't dwell on them ;)

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And yet, in the most recent discussion we've had on the topic, YOU were the one that went straight to vote count to determine popularity. Should I take a page from your book and start posting links?

And we've also had conversations here where people DID ask for healers to have damage rotations on par with tanks, where people have insisted we cannot increase healing complexity because of legacy content and novice healers, etc. These arguments are the same, the differences are superficial "well ackshually"s to try and distance the prevailing opinion here from one being opposed there.

The point is, people, who are not Ren Thras, are saying that they don't want greater damage complexity on healers. People are saying they want greater healing complexity, and people are saying even if they don't get that, they don't want greater damage complexity. And the position seems popular and accepted by quite a few people, not just the lone voice of Ren Thras, proving once and for all that he is NOT actually isolated in his view and that it does represent that of a swath of the playerbase. More than enough to justify listening to it and ensuring at least one healer Job is tailored to those people.

EDIT:

God, I don't want to fight you or make you look stupid, so all I'm going to do is drop this link, and bold the thing you said that you now decry when it is working against you: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6372823

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You have a interesting way of evaluating "happiness"

Check out the highest voted post. at 111 up-votes, it out-weighs all of what I would consider as clearly positive vote (e.g. I love sage, sage is 10/10, buttery smooth)

"Sage feels like it should have a more robust DPS kit and a different function for kardia. I don't really feel the job's core idea much at all - it heals when I DPS but my DPS kit is extremely limited and I'm always DPSing so it just feels like a regen in practice. There's no DPS move I have to save or think about, I just pop them off cool down

It's stylish though. Haima and snap shielding are fun and having to activate eukrasia tickle my brain."

When I look at this one, it doesn't come off as "happy". I can also find others which are more negative in tone.

Agreed, there are also positive ones , looking at them quickly I found three that totalled up to about 75.

So a quick review would tell me that it's not so much a "so many people are happy" but that it's a mixed bag. Yes, some people do like Sage, and some really like Sage, but a significant amount, possibly a majority, have issues with Sage. It's not what they expected, they may like some aspects, however they want to changes.

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You'll try to weasel out of it again, so I'm not going to hold your feet to the fire or bicker with you back and forth nor rebut your excuses again. But you clearly counted upvotes and were using those as an argument when it supported your position, and you reject them when they support the position opposing to you. That's called having a double standard, and is blatant in your case. Say what defense or excuses you want, make the excuse that I do it too, whatever; you did it, and now you say it's a bad thing to do.

For my part, I don't think it's a great metric, and have been up front about that in the past and here as well, but since YOU used it before, I applied it here. Suddenly, it's a bad metric? Great, we agree.

...but then, that wasn't the crux of my point. Meaning it's actually irrelevant.

MY point wasn't "it's popular" or "it's the dominant position" or "it's what the majority want".

My point was only that it's more than just me all alone, and it's significant enough that we who hold it, collectively, make a large enough minority we deserve at least one healer Job suited to us. That was the argument I was presenting, and it has been established by the evidence. Well, what we have to count as evidence, anyway. As I pointed out with Ty's surveys, there are significant numbers of people NOT asking for more DPS actions nor complexity on the various healer Jobs (AST in particular, but all of them to some extent), and WHM is split 50/50 between "no change / minor rework" vs "major rework / total rework", and for SGE, those two added together are the majority position 54/46.

Clearly, there is a significant portion of the playerbase active on forums and these surveys, which does not want more DPS actions/complexity on healer Jobs. This should be more than enough to justify one being tailored to them instead of to you, especially if you get 2 or even 3 of the others.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And yet, in the most recent discussion we've had on the topic, YOU were the one that went straight to vote count to determine popularity. Should I take a page from your book and start posting links?

And we've also had conversations here where people DID ask for healers to have damage rotations on par with tanks, where people have insisted we cannot increase healing complexity because of legacy content and novice healers, etc. These arguments are the same, the differences are superficial "well ackshually"s to try and distance the prevailing opinion here from one being opposed there.

The point is, people, who are not Ren Thras, are saying that they don't want greater damage complexity on healers. People are saying they want greater healing complexity, and people are saying even if they don't get that, they don't want greater damage complexity. And the position seems popular and accepted by quite a few people, not just the lone voice of Ren Thras, proving once and for all that he is NOT actually isolated in his view and that it does represent that of a swath of the playerbase. More than enough to justify listening to it and ensuring at least one healer Job is tailored to those people.

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No, I didn't go "straight to vote count', if you weren't so vested in one upmanship, you might focussed with more clarity on my prior comment, and I will repeat it again- that it is hardly surprising that some people don't want a tank rotation applied to healers, amongst literally millions of people playing FFXIV, some people will disagree, and some people have already said so in the forums - exactly in the prior discussions that you just referred to.

Once again, you ignore that the rest of us do not lack the capacity to read, interpret, deduct and analyze - and from that we may or may not agree with future healer changes.

Here's an imaginary scenario (bear with me, I realize details are left out) : for the sake of argument - 20 % of current healers are absolutely counter to any changes, and Square decided, let's go with a Dancer-like change to add 2 new proc skills for DPS starting from level 50- what do you imagine would happen? Would you quit? Do you you think that the 20% of the those healers would quit in disgust, or because they're now a "DPS", even if otherwise the job doesn't change - or if you bring up hotbar space- let's say Repose is tossed?

All I see in this reddit thread from a quick skim for WHM specifically, is people saying that WHM would be pretty cool if it '3 disjointed attacks (assuming they mean staggered timers) to give a freeform style rotation' (sounds awfully familar, and no, it's not cos I made the comment), someone saying 'If there is a class that should go hard in a "BLM style" explosive rotation, it should be WHM' (which I've seen a few people agree with, moreso the 'explosive powerful feeling', less so the direct 1:1 analog to BLM in terms of rotation), and someone definitively stating 'the last thing I would want as a healer is a proc-system where I'm locked into staring at my hotbars. My priority is on the party list, thanks.' Which I get, I don't want to be staring at my hotbars to see if I get a DiaCloud proc, and SE only ever uses one SFX for 'thing is ready' so it's be confusing if it means a Lily bloomed or Dia procced. Probably a lot more but I cba wading through people waving their e-peens around over how difficult (or not) one role is to optimize compared to another when it's this late

Oh, and some guy tilting at windmills, saying 'I don't know which one you are (though I have an idea...), but you're from the official forums as well, judging by that one comment you made'. Because anyone who disagrees must be on the official forums too, apparently? And based on just one comment, that's quite impressive. At least it was funny to read, on account of it being so out of left field

The top comment in that thread is blasting the post for wanting to lobotomize the healing part down to tank mitigation levels. Who is arguing for that? Trying to recruit on the discussion reddit genuinely has to be a new low on this forum although I guess that comes natural together with not having any substantial points of your own.

It's so funny how you try to act concerned about how many healers will be driven away from the role by having more of a dps rotation (which isnt true) but will happily claim you are in favor of making healing more difficult which we know has the much greater chance of driving healers away.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

It's so funny how you try to act concerned about how many healers will be driven away from the role by having more of a dps rotation (which isnt true) but will happily claim you are in favor of making healing more difficult which we know has the much greater chance of driving healers away.

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We literally have the stats to back it up too, we had a larger percentage of the playerbase playing healers in HW than we do now (even though damage as a healer was 'more complex' cos of Cleric Stance and such). Though that might be due to how many jobs have been added to the game over time that are non-healer. On the flip side though, we saw Abyssos and the issues the 'higher healing required' instantly caused

I imagine that the overwhelming majority (like 65%+) of healer players, upon logging into DT or 8.0 or whichever and seeing 'Oh WHM now has an extra GCD to press once every 15 seconds for a bit of bonus damage' would react with 'oh OK I guess I put this on my bars somewhere. Maybe where Medica used to be, since it's now a second copy of Medica 2 for some reason. I should ask on the Reddit what that's all about, maybe someone knows'.

Funny thing is, having new damage buttons is probably actually more 'player friendly' as a change because it's visible. You can see the new buttons in your Actions menu when you go there to look at the new 91-100 moves, and keybind them. But 'increased healing required' would only become 'visible' when the damage happens, and by then it's potentially too late to adjust because the game's netcode isn't exactly set up to allow for sudden adjustments of how much throughput you're doing. Like, if you're expecting to need to Rapture, but the game does damage enough to demand Cure3 instead, you can't really adjust to that because Cure 3 has a cast time, so it feels sluggish to respond with