Endwalker hates mid-core players

In Endwalkers, for causal players, there are:
Island Sanctuary
Seasonal events
MSQ and Sidequests
Dungeons
Custom Deliveries
Beast tribes
Eureka Orthos
Variant dungeons.

For hard-core players, there are:
12 Savage raids
2 Ultimates
3 Criterion Savages

For mid-core players, there are:
7 Extreme trials
3 Criterion dungeons
5 Unreal trials (not exactly new content)

I think having more mid-core content, can help players transition from causal to hard-core content, so it is not exactly only helpful for mid-core players only.

I agree Mid core players got the short end of the stick in this expac. We didnt even get an involved relic progression this expac. In the past relics kept me playing in between tiers since I enjoy the grind every day but this expac it was so meh. Relic was boiled down to do a hindy quest, buy 3 mats with tombstones, and then get the relic. So boring and not engaging at all since I could get my relic on the first day the new one came out. Now Hardcore players get yet another glowy weapon with this patch that they can work towards meanwhile mid-core get a boring relic quest that only requires them to turn in tombstones. I dont know if ppl consider relics as mid-core or not, but I do since doing relics in the past was a grind and time investment. This tier relic tho I would say is aimed more toward casual players than anyone else since it is super easy to get.

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

can't hate something that doesn't exist mid core is a myth.

Criterion is more hardcore than 7/12 savages

Listing Seasonal Events alongside Savage Raids seems a bit disingenuous, those are at most 2 quests that cannot be repeated, and take a total of about 10 minutes to complete and earn everything for.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

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Midcore is never midcore for multiple people.

Heck we even have people like Zepla and Mr.Happy saying that Savage is considered midcore and that is the most out of touching thing Ive yet to hear.

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Originally Posted by Frost1800

In Endwalkers, for causal players, there are:
Island Sanctuary
Seasonal events
MSQ and Sidequests
Dungeons
Custom Deliveries
Beast tribes
Eureka Orthos
Variant dungeons.

For hard-core players, there are:
12 Savage raids
2 Ultimates
3 Criterion Savages

For mid-core players, there are:
7 Extreme trials
3 Criterion dungeons
5 Unreal trials (not exactly new content)

I think having more mid-core content, can help players transition from causal to hard-core content, so it is not exactly only helpful for mid-core players only.

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I think a lot of this becomes messy because there are numerous ways to be "casual" and numerous ways to be "hardcore", so we often disagree on this terminology. Things can be hardcore because of game difficulty, but they can also be hardcore because of things like time commitments and convenience. For some people a need to communicate can be hardcore. What some players take for granted will be a big ask for others.

For example, the most important aspect of "casual" content for me is that I can conveniently access it without devoting a lot of time or overhead to the process of getting in the door. If I would need a Party Finder or a static instead of automated matchmaking, that's hardcore content.

And in terms of difficulty, I do want to be challenged, but I don't want to be faced against something so challenging and nuanced that I'm expected to have read a guide first. Personally, I'd like something that my group of randomly matched newcomers will be able to figure out from scratch before the instance timer runs out; for my needs, that would be a good mid-core. But if there are runs entirely devoted to progging, that's hardcore. And in terms of challenge, that keeps me away from the "hardcore" side of FF14 content, even though the "casual" content has less oomph than would be ideal.

When we talk about bridging the casual vs hardcore gap, I think we too often focus entirely on difficulty and challenge and ignore these other spectrums. We think about content that gradually raises in difficulty until players are facing the game's greatest challenges, but we forget that there's no content that is capable of converting a player who doesn't want to spend 20 minutes waiting in Party Finder into someone who is fine with that; there's no well-balanced trial that is going to en masse change players' personal preferences. There are barriers that prevent players from graduating to more difficult content that have nothing to do with skill.

All of which is to say, we will never be able to solve these problems until we learn to discuss all of these different aspects of the issue. For some players, the thing that's keeping them from doing Savage content isn't a lack of skill or a desire to improve as a player, but rather that they only have limited and sporadic windows during which they can game, or that after a long day of work they just don't have the energy to talk to other people.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Midcore is never midcore for multiple people.

Heck we even have people like Zepla and Mr.Happy saying that Savage is considered midcore and that is the most out of touching thing Ive yet to hear.

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Uh, yeah the people whose job is to literally make videos and grind content to make videos are probably not the best people to ask what qualifies as midcore. The average person playing this game isn't even doing it when they are at their best condition: most are doing it after work or school and are tired, worn out, and maybe playing anywhere from 2-4 hours a night.

And mid-core content in an MMO is where gearing up happens normally. While some games do push higher level gear in the hardest content, they are really the exception over the norm. Heck, FFXIV is the weirdest with end game since they make dyable armor only available from savage for some reason, and then no one has a right to a true top tier weapon outside savage until the very end of the expansion when it doesn't matter anymore. Everyone should have access to the top iLvL weapon from mid-core, what they should be doing is giving cosmetic upgrades or something like a trophy item for doing the hardest content.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

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I don't know what the devs are smoking if they consider relics mid-core.

ARR core relics are insanely grindy and casuals simply don't bother. Arguably the same with HW relics.

Eureka is especially gatekeepy with its compounding subsystems, so also definitely not something casuals pursue.

And Bozja is only modestly less demanding than Eureka, and like Eureka most casuals didn't even bother participating in it.

The only relics that have even marginally been "casual" have been Endwalker relics, and not only have they been criticized for lacking any real content, but I think it was a poor decision to designate *any* prestige weapon grind as "casual".

Roulettes are casual. Gold Saucer is casual. Festivals are casual. Island Sanctuary is casual. Retainers and housing and glams are casual. If relics are supposed to be "casual", then the devs are losing their touch, and I suppose nothing in the game is intended to mean anything anymore under this guise of "listening to fans" and "accessibility".

I'm not even really in any place to be indignant as a matter of personal offense. I am quite casual. I got through the first map and a bit of both Bozja and Eureka before giving up. I haven't bothered with current tier Savage or Extremes. I haven't bothered with Criterions. The most "mid-core" stuff I ever did was a single ARR relic and HW relic, and that was plenty "not casual" enough for me to (a) be hesitant about even attempting it and (b) never want to do it again. I'm mostly just offended at how delusionally wrong the devs' take is on that.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I don't know what the devs are smoking if they consider relics mid-core.

ARR core relics are insanely grindy and casuals simply don't bother. Arguably the same with HW relics.

Eureka is especially gatekeepy with its compounding subsystems, so also definitely not something casuals pursue.

And Bozja is only modestly less demanding than Eureka, and like Eureka most casuals didn't even bother participating in it.

The only relics that have even marginally been "casual" have been Endwalker relics, and not only have they been criticized for lacking any real content, but I think it was a poor decision to designate *any* prestige weapon grind as "casual".

Roulettes are casual. Gold Saucer is casual. Retainers and housing and glams are casual. If relics are supposed to be "casual", then the devs are losing their touch, and I suppose nothing in the game is intended to mean anything anymore under this guise of "listening to fans" and "accessibility".

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They are considered "midcore" because the only thing holding a player back is typically time-investment, gil, and accumulating whatever resources the relic wants.

The only difference between a casual player, a midcore, and a hardcore is how quickly they complete their given relic and how many get completed. A hardcore player can be expected to complete a relic for each and every class. Meanwhile a casual player will take far longer because they are not as deeply attached as to doing it. So midcore are the mix of the two where they may not care about collecting every relic, but they will care enough to collect what relics they actually want for the handful of jobs they actually play. A midcore may even only want one whole weapon and once they are done, they don't care about the rest of the stuff associated with this relic grind.

Midcore are even weirder because they can be really hardcore about specific aspects of a piece of content, but also simultaneously are casual about content within the same sphere. They might have completed P8S, but then for the next tier they can't be bothered to do it. They might do hardcore content, but its only because it has a title or mount or weapon that they actually want.

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Originally Posted by Frost1800

In Endwalkers, for causal players, there are:
Island Sanctuary
Seasonal events
MSQ and Sidequests
Dungeons
Custom Deliveries
Beast tribes
Eureka Orthos
Variant dungeons.

For hard-core players, there are:
12 Savage raids
2 Ultimates
3 Criterion Savages

For mid-core players, there are:
7 Extreme trials
3 Criterion dungeons
5 Unreal trials (not exactly new content)

I think having more mid-core content, can help players transition from causal to hard-core content, so it is not exactly only helpful for mid-core players only.

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According to this list hard-core players only got 2 more things than mid-core, which doesn't seem like a lot.

Another CORE issue is also the longevity of said content, you can easily eat up most content in matters of days.
replayability is lacking and so are the rewards!.

Midcore content to me is content you can clear w/o a static and dosnt demand weeks to clear..
Content you can jump in fresh and get to clear in 1-2days.
Exemple: Abyssal fracture EX. it can be learned + cleared + farmed in a day with randoms.

So, I asked a lot of my raider friends and most of them said that they felt that Savage is Midcore and only current Ultimate (DSR and TOP, not the other three) are Hardcore.
Lately I've been getting the impression that Hardcore content is reduced to Midcore content with age and experience. Or alternatively, when something harder releases, then the previous Hardcore thing is bumped down a tier.
In the context of Savage, it's hardcore content until the world races are completed. Then it becomes Midcore content when the guides and braindead strats are made up. As people finish their 8 weeks and experience across the player base is gained, then it falls to midcore tier. After my general interactions with several people on the subject, this seems to be the case. Things aren't created with being midcore in mind, they are reduced to becoming midcore with time.

i guess 'most' of us agree when i say dungeons are casual content and savage is hard content

so we could say anything between, the bridge so to say, is midcore.

this means we have normal raid and extrem trials. other than that there isnt much left.
a-raids have been there, but not anymore.

when we look at this content its pretty much everything harder than dungeons without body checks involving the whole group... there you have mid-core content.



not like every fight fits into it, but thats impossible anyway. difficulty is a spectrum. you have extrems with body checks which arent on savage lvl and then you have fights like P1S which isnt really savage lvl either

and if someone thinks: what? wait.... extrem is too difficult to be mid-core then thise few players might just be low end players.. thats alright.
or the other way around players might just be too good... high end player? (i dont wanna use hardcore because too many relate that to time)

I mean, the issue with FFXIV is that savage became more mainstream due to shadowbringers and it caused feedback to tilt towards the "progression = power" spectrum, as it got a lot of people into using savage as a gearing mechanism for jobs when it was supposed to be a self contained eco system for challenge runners. They added Ultimate into the game as well so now there is a question as to who savage is supposed to be for, since Ultimate is now the new challenge runner mode.

Effectively, savage is warping the system that they created for progression that was fair to just about anyone: Log in and do some kind of end game content, and regardless of what you did you would progress towards better item level. With Savage, someone can not only do that, but leap ahead of everyone else by getting the top end gear on week 2 where the baseline gear is just being introduced. Even if the actual change to stats is not much, it still creates an objectively better path as long as someone can also max tomestones in the same week as progressing savage. So someone could do the "mid core" content that doesn't give an advantage but just gives tomestones and maybe craft materials, or they can go do the slightly harder savage fight and get rewarded with power plus tomestones.

Like, the FFXIV team did this to themselves it isn't anyone in the community being evil here pointing out that they destroyed their own value proposition. There's no way anyone is going to do stuff like criterion or perhaps even unreal if they are just wasting time compared to the almighty gear grinder wheel they stuck in the middle of the game. Casual players are just going to keep doing roulettes and alliance raids so they aren't going to touch these things until they are in the past and they can go in unsync. Heck, even the new deep dungeon is easily ignorable unless someone is grinding up some job they haven't leveled, and PvP is just about the only other content in the patch that has a pull because of the time limited offerings. Not even sure if a casual player would engage in PvP but if anyone here who ignores EX fights, unreals, and criterion does PvP feel free to chime in.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

I mean, the issue with FFXIV is that savage became more mainstream due to shadowbringers and it caused feedback to tilt towards the "progression = power" spectrum, as it got a lot of people into using savage as a gearing mechanism for jobs when it was supposed to be a self contained eco system for challenge runners. They added Ultimate into the game as well so now there is a question as to who savage is supposed to be for, since Ultimate is now the new challenge runner mode.

Effectively, savage is warping the system that they created for progression that was fair to just about anyone: Log in and do some kind of end game content, and regardless of what you did you would progress towards better item level. With Savage, someone can not only do that, but leap ahead of everyone else by getting the top end gear on week 2 where the baseline gear is just being introduced. Even if the actual change to stats is not much, it still creates an objectively better path as long as someone can also max tomestones in the same week as progressing savage. So someone could do the "mid core" content that doesn't give an advantage but just gives tomestones and maybe craft materials, or they can go do the slightly harder savage fight and get rewarded with power plus tomestones.

Like, the FFXIV team did this to themselves it isn't anyone in the community being evil here pointing out that they destroyed their own value proposition. There's no way anyone is going to do stuff like criterion or perhaps even unreal if they are just wasting time compared to the almighty gear grinder wheel they stuck in the middle of the game. Casual players are just going to keep doing roulettes and alliance raids so they aren't going to touch these things until they are in the past and they can go in unsync. Heck, even the new deep dungeon is easily ignorable unless someone is grinding up some job they haven't leveled, and PvP is just about the only other content in the patch that has a pull because of the time limited offerings. Not even sure if a casual player would engage in PvP but if anyone here who ignores EX fights, unreals, and criterion does PvP feel free to chime in.

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Bottom Line, rewards drives content. You have to give appealing rewards as well as sensible ones to give that content meaning

"Endwalker hates mid-core players"

I know I do. Eff those guys.

There's now been enough of these threads that I'm starting to think Endwalker hates players.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Bottom Line, rewards drives content. You have to give appealing rewards as well as sensible ones to give that content meaning

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The one who determines what constitutes a reward is the designer of the game. The impression of what is rewarding is just the result of that choice. It's something that isn't very well grasped by people in general as when someone is playing a game, they are playing within the sandbox the designers built, but it is totally possible to build a game that has no item level progression at end game and still have rewarding content. The issue is that they polluted the original idea by having savage grant higher level gear and then having savage become more popular. What was acceptable prior to ShB isn't the same as what has become acceptable after ShB.

That list aint completely right. There is no mid core. There is only super easy and super hard. Until a few years ago i was doing savage raids and extremes but for me it was to much stress for to little reward.
My Wife started playing like a year ago and while shes dying of boredom in normal dungeons, she would never dream of killing a current extreme primal.

So no. There is no midcore. For me personally, midcore would be extremes or Criterions without timelimit. Its always the "we devs make it easy for us" Timelimit. That is also the Reason everybody has to slot full DPS materia on every Job that exists.

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Originally Posted by Chasingstars

They are considered "midcore" because the only thing holding a player back is typically time-investment, gil, and accumulating whatever resources the relic wants.

The only difference between a casual player, a midcore, and a hardcore is how quickly they complete their given relic and how many get completed. A hardcore player can be expected to complete a relic for each and every class. Meanwhile a casual player will take far longer because they are not as deeply attached as to doing it. So midcore are the mix of the two where they may not care about collecting every relic, but they will care enough to collect what relics they actually want for the handful of jobs they actually play. A midcore may even only want one whole weapon and once they are done, they don't care about the rest of the stuff associated with this relic grind.

Midcore are even weirder because they can be really hardcore about specific aspects of a piece of content, but also simultaneously are casual about content within the same sphere. They might have completed P8S, but then for the next tier they can't be bothered to do it. They might do hardcore content, but its only because it has a title or mount or weapon that they actually want.

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But that's the thing. *Most* things in FFXIV and MMOs are "time investment", and "time investment" is often a barrier separating mid-core/hardcore and casual players. And gil/resources, especially for relics, really just translates to time investment into related/auxiliary grinds.

The most defining feature of any game's casual playerbase is nonengagement with "content". Either deliberate avoidance of any challenge (skill-based) or demand (time-based), or quite literally not having the free time to play the game in that way.

Most casual players generally don't play these games for hours every night, and when they run into opportunities to "grind" for things they often will not participate unless the content itself can be broken into bite sized chunks. If a casual ever does achieve a "mid-core" goal, it will often have been almost a secondary effect of casually playing content they enjoy, and not their primary focal point.

So I just don't agree with the notion that heavily time-invested content is "casual", simply because it does not require skill. Casuals see time-investment as either intimidating or a waste, and will not engage no matter how easy the content is. Bozja and Eureka are not especially difficult content (though they do have some sort of learning curve), but that didn't stop me from quitting once I realized field notes and actions were just rote, long-term gambling that I didn't have the patience for. That seems a pretty crucial axis of distinction of casuals vs. mid-cores: mid-cores have the time and interest to grind content; casuals have a much lower threshold of peacing out to go dance in Limsa.

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Originally Posted by Araxes

That list aint completely right. There is no mid core. There is only super easy and super hard. Until a few years ago i was doing savage raids and extremes but for me it was to much stress for to little reward.
My Wife started playing like a year ago and while shes dying of boredom in normal dungeons, she would never dream of killing a current extreme primal.

So no. There is no midcore. For me personally, midcore would be extremes or Criterions without timelimit. Its always the "we devs make it easy for us" Timelimit. That is also the Reason everybody has to slot full DPS materia on every Job that exists.

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To me, mid-core is the design space of things which require some degree of time-investment/grind and learning mechanics/systems, without needing to invest into optimization or training schedules.

Anything that does not require "investment" or "planning" is casual. All of the social subsystems, retainers/trusts, Gold Saucer, roulettes, dungeons, most 24-man raids. A casual's rule of thumb is either (a) quick, or (b) hard to fail with no experience, or (c) not participating and going to some bar in the housing district.

Anything that requires substantial investment, particularly BiS, melding, strats, and statics, but also to an extent pots and food and add-ons, is hardcore. That definitely includes current tier savages and ultimates, but also current expansion savages and the current-tier extreme trial. There never is much hardcore content in FFXIV, with long droughts between patches, which is where we see a very vocal minority complain about "not enough content".

Mid-core is what exists in that space between the two, things that require too much skill or time to be of interest to casuals, but can be prepped/geared/trained for cheaply and quickly with reasonable odds of success. Anything that amounts to a boring "grind" is naturally going to gravitate to this middle zone: Eureka, Bozja, Diadem/crafting, older Extreme mounts and older Savage glams, alt job leveling and deep dungeons, Lord of Verminion. I would describe most self-contained and "parasitic" side content to fall into Mid-core, because it often is not consequential to the main story and casual enjoyment, is secluded away enough behind side quests and subsystems as to be easily neglected/missed, but also is absolutely not challenging to play once the player is oriented to the systems.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

So, I asked a lot of my raider friends and most of them said that they felt that Savage is Midcore and only current Ultimate (DSR and TOP, not the other three) are Hardcore.
Lately I've been getting the impression that Hardcore content is reduced to Midcore content with age and experience. Or alternatively, when something harder releases, then the previous Hardcore thing is bumped down a tier.
In the context of Savage, it's hardcore content until the world races are completed. Then it becomes Midcore content when the guides and braindead strats are made up. As people finish their 8 weeks and experience across the player base is gained, then it falls to midcore tier. After my general interactions with several people on the subject, this seems to be the case. Things aren't created with being midcore in mind, they are reduced to becoming midcore with time.

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I would guess that this is the result of having so much of the combat being scripted without deviation. It feels to me that combat in XIV is more about memorizing a pattern and executing it and not about knowing how your abilities work and when it's appropriate to use them. Jobs have very static rotations to follow without deviation and once an encounter has been learned it is simply repeating it.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I would guess that this is the result of having so much of the combat being scripted without deviation. It feels to me that combat in XIV is more about memorizing a pattern and executing it and not about knowing how your abilities work and when it's appropriate to use them. Jobs have very static rotations to follow without deviation and once an encounter has been learned it is simply repeating it.

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The truth is that the vast majority of people who do PF savage are not the same kind of people that do savage week 1 - week 4. The main difference is in mind-set as those who are doing week 1-4 generally aren't just blindly saying "go see video and shut up" which seems to be the mentality of the PF and a lot of statics that take a long time to clear. The fights are static, but the variable is the person and the people around them, so the real challenge in savage is identifying the pattern and then working out and making sure everyone knows what they are doing. It's not that savage suddenly becomes mid-core content later on, it's that for some people it is mid-core and others it is hard-core, and the only real measuring stick is how many hours they need before the people in the group finally figure out what they are supposed to do in relation to one another. Technically, if we go by mid-core being the ability to skip mechanics, then the first tier is the only one that really becomes mid-core under the new gear crunch and possibly the first two fights of the second tier.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

The truth is that the vast majority of people who do PF savage are not the same kind of people that do savage week 1 - week 4. The main difference is in mind-set as those who are doing week 1-4 generally aren't just blindly saying "go see video and shut up" which seems to be the mentality of the PF and a lot of statics that take a long time to clear. The fights are static, but the variable is the person and the people around them, so the real challenge in savage is identifying the pattern and then working out and making sure everyone knows what they are doing. It's not that savage suddenly becomes mid-core content later on, it's that for some people it is mid-core and others it is hard-core, and the only real measuring stick is how many hours they need before the people in the group finally figure out what they are supposed to do in relation to one another. Technically, if we go by mid-core being the ability to skip mechanics, then the first tier is the only one that really becomes mid-core under the new gear crunch and possibly the first two fights of the second tier.

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The problem for me is more so that no matter the content you engage in you will be hammering out the same rotation. There is no instance where you will want to deviate from the rotation that has been set in stone by both the design team and community. The only other MMO I played with any sincerity is Everquest and that had a much slower but much more flexible approach to combat. The abilities you used and how your party played could vary greatly depending on what classes happened to be present. It also took know what your abilities did and what would be appropriate to use as the situation unfolded. Everything in XIV just feels so rigid.

We need unreal versions of older savage tiers! A whole tier at a time on a rotating basis just like the unreal ex ones.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

The problem for me is more so that no matter the content you engage in you will be hammering out the same rotation. There is no instance where you will want to deviate from the rotation that has been set in stone by both the design team and community. The only other MMO I played with any sincerity is Everquest and that had a much slower but much more flexible approach to combat. The abilities you used and how your party played could vary greatly depending on what classes happened to be present. It also took know what your abilities did and what would be appropriate to use as the situation unfolded. Everything in XIV just feels so rigid.

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The people who play this game the most don't care about how fun your class is to play at all. They care about one thing and one thing only-- an illusion of balance so they can fool themselves into believing this is the one game where any class is viable and there is no meta for group play, which is a total joke. There is and will always be meta party composition irrespective of balance. Their voices only grow lower when the meta is something they are OK with-- then everything is balanced and all classes are fine.

FFXIV's most dedicated players can't stand class depth or choices. Every class needs to be equally braindead and not special in any way...hence why they are being homogenized and streamlined into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

FFXIV's most dedicated players can't stand class depth or choices. Every class needs to be equally braindead and not special in any way...hence why they are being homogenized and streamlined into oblivion.

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I wouldn't call that dedicated.
Dedication is when you take a job's quirks and learn to work around them to still play it to it's maximum potential.
Wanting the gameplay to be reduced to mindless button mashing is the opposite of dedication, it means you can achieve the maximum potential without actually having to invest anything.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I wouldn't call that dedicated.
Dedication is when you take a job's quirks and learn to work around them to still play it to it's maximum potential.
Wanting the gameplay to be reduced to mindless button mashing is the opposite of dedication, it means you can achieve the maximum potential without actually having to invest anything.

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What I mean when I say dedicated is people who play the range of combat the most. People who finish MSQ and move on to Savage and then Ultimates etc. They do not care about casual or mid core players nor do they care about the state of jobs outside, as I said, "balance".

And I love that counter arguments for combat or class design mostly boil down to "well that would create imbalance and we would go back to Heavensward when no one brought x class to raids". So casual and mid core players need to run a full analysis to be qualified to speak on job Design but minmaxers can appeal to some imaginary version of the game no one has access to where x class wasn't special enough? Funny how that works.