Endwalker hates mid-core players

[Frost1800]

In Endwalkers, for causal players, there are:
Island Sanctuary
Seasonal events
MSQ and Sidequests
Dungeons
Custom Deliveries
Beast tribes
Eureka Orthos
Variant dungeons.

For hard-core players, there are:
12 Savage raids
2 Ultimates
3 Criterion Savages

For mid-core players, there are:
7 Extreme trials
3 Criterion dungeons
5 Unreal trials (not exactly new content)

I think having more mid-core content, can help players transition from causal to hard-core content, so it is not exactly only helpful for mid-core players only.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

I agree Mid core players got the short end of the stick in this expac. We didnt even get an involved relic progression this expac. In the past relics kept me playing in between tiers since I enjoy the grind every day but this expac it was so meh. Relic was boiled down to do a hindy quest, buy 3 mats with tombstones, and then get the relic. So boring and not engaging at all since I could get my relic on the first day the new one came out. Now Hardcore players get yet another glowy weapon with this patch that they can work towards meanwhile mid-core get a boring relic quest that only requires them to turn in tombstones. I dont know if ppl consider relics as mid-core or not, but I do since doing relics in the past was a grind and time investment. This tier relic tho I would say is aimed more toward casual players than anyone else since it is super easy to get.

[Bonoki]

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

[Atelier-Bagur]

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

Midcore is never midcore for multiple people.

Heck we even have people like Zepla and Mr.Happy saying that Savage is considered midcore and that is the most out of touching thing Ive yet to hear.

[Colt47]

Midcore is never midcore for multiple people.

Heck we even have people like Zepla and Mr.Happy saying that Savage is considered midcore and that is the most out of touching thing Ive yet to hear.

Uh, yeah the people whose job is to literally make videos and grind content to make videos are probably not the best people to ask what qualifies as midcore. The average person playing this game isn't even doing it when they are at their best condition: most are doing it after work or school and are tired, worn out, and maybe playing anywhere from 2-4 hours a night.

And mid-core content in an MMO is where gearing up happens normally. While some games do push higher level gear in the hardest content, they are really the exception over the norm. Heck, FFXIV is the weirdest with end game since they make dyable armor only available from savage for some reason, and then no one has a right to a true top tier weapon outside savage until the very end of the expansion when it doesn't matter anymore. Everyone should have access to the top iLvL weapon from mid-core, what they should be doing is giving cosmetic upgrades or something like a trophy item for doing the hardest content.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Said it before will say it again.

Midcore content is lacking because everyone has an unagreeable different definition of what Mid-core actually means.
Most mid-core content usually pendulates in one direction (casual or hardcore) more than neutrally in the middle.

Sub note: The devs have gone on record to say that Relics are casual content to them not Mid-core.

I don't know what the devs are smoking if they consider relics mid-core.

ARR core relics are insanely grindy and casuals simply don't bother. Arguably the same with HW relics.

Eureka is especially gatekeepy with its compounding subsystems, so also definitely not something casuals pursue.

And Bozja is only modestly less demanding than Eureka, and like Eureka most casuals didn't even bother participating in it.

The only relics that have even marginally been "casual" have been Endwalker relics, and not only have they been criticized for lacking any real content, but I think it was a poor decision to designate *any* prestige weapon grind as "casual".

Roulettes are casual. Gold Saucer is casual. Festivals are casual. Island Sanctuary is casual. Retainers and housing and glams are casual. If relics are supposed to be "casual", then the devs are losing their touch, and I suppose nothing in the game is intended to mean anything anymore under this guise of "listening to fans" and "accessibility".

I'm not even really in any place to be indignant as a matter of personal offense. I am quite casual. I got through the first map and a bit of both Bozja and Eureka before giving up. I haven't bothered with current tier Savage or Extremes. I haven't bothered with Criterions. The most "mid-core" stuff I ever did was a single ARR relic and HW relic, and that was plenty "not casual" enough for me to (a) be hesitant about even attempting it and (b) never want to do it again. I'm mostly just offended at how delusionally wrong the devs' take is on that.

[Chasingstars]

I don't know what the devs are smoking if they consider relics mid-core.

ARR core relics are insanely grindy and casuals simply don't bother. Arguably the same with HW relics.

Eureka is especially gatekeepy with its compounding subsystems, so also definitely not something casuals pursue.

And Bozja is only modestly less demanding than Eureka, and like Eureka most casuals didn't even bother participating in it.

The only relics that have even marginally been "casual" have been Endwalker relics, and not only have they been criticized for lacking any real content, but I think it was a poor decision to designate *any* prestige weapon grind as "casual".

Roulettes are casual. Gold Saucer is casual. Retainers and housing and glams are casual. If relics are supposed to be "casual", then the devs are losing their touch, and I suppose nothing in the game is intended to mean anything anymore under this guise of "listening to fans" and "accessibility".

They are considered "midcore" because the only thing holding a player back is typically time-investment, gil, and accumulating whatever resources the relic wants.

The only difference between a casual player, a midcore, and a hardcore is how quickly they complete their given relic and how many get completed. A hardcore player can be expected to complete a relic for each and every class. Meanwhile a casual player will take far longer because they are not as deeply attached as to doing it. So midcore are the mix of the two where they may not care about collecting every relic, but they will care enough to collect what relics they actually want for the handful of jobs they actually play. A midcore may even only want one whole weapon and once they are done, they don't care about the rest of the stuff associated with this relic grind.

Midcore are even weirder because they can be really hardcore about specific aspects of a piece of content, but also simultaneously are casual about content within the same sphere. They might have completed P8S, but then for the next tier they can't be bothered to do it. They might do hardcore content, but its only because it has a title or mount or weapon that they actually want.

[SeverianLyonesse]

They are considered "midcore" because the only thing holding a player back is typically time-investment, gil, and accumulating whatever resources the relic wants.

The only difference between a casual player, a midcore, and a hardcore is how quickly they complete their given relic and how many get completed. A hardcore player can be expected to complete a relic for each and every class. Meanwhile a casual player will take far longer because they are not as deeply attached as to doing it. So midcore are the mix of the two where they may not care about collecting every relic, but they will care enough to collect what relics they actually want for the handful of jobs they actually play. A midcore may even only want one whole weapon and once they are done, they don't care about the rest of the stuff associated with this relic grind.

Midcore are even weirder because they can be really hardcore about specific aspects of a piece of content, but also simultaneously are casual about content within the same sphere. They might have completed P8S, but then for the next tier they can't be bothered to do it. They might do hardcore content, but its only because it has a title or mount or weapon that they actually want.

But that's the thing. *Most* things in FFXIV and MMOs are "time investment", and "time investment" is often a barrier separating mid-core/hardcore and casual players. And gil/resources, especially for relics, really just translates to time investment into related/auxiliary grinds.

The most defining feature of any game's casual playerbase is nonengagement with "content". Either deliberate avoidance of any challenge (skill-based) or demand (time-based), or quite literally not having the free time to play the game in that way.

Most casual players generally don't play these games for hours every night, and when they run into opportunities to "grind" for things they often will not participate unless the content itself can be broken into bite sized chunks. If a casual ever does achieve a "mid-core" goal, it will often have been almost a secondary effect of casually playing content they enjoy, and not their primary focal point.

So I just don't agree with the notion that heavily time-invested content is "casual", simply because it does not require skill. Casuals see time-investment as either intimidating or a waste, and will not engage no matter how easy the content is. Bozja and Eureka are not especially difficult content (though they do have some sort of learning curve), but that didn't stop me from quitting once I realized field notes and actions were just rote, long-term gambling that I didn't have the patience for. That seems a pretty crucial axis of distinction of casuals vs. mid-cores: mid-cores have the time and interest to grind content; casuals have a much lower threshold of peacing out to go dance in Limsa.

That list aint completely right. There is no mid core. There is only super easy and super hard. Until a few years ago i was doing savage raids and extremes but for me it was to much stress for to little reward.
My Wife started playing like a year ago and while shes dying of boredom in normal dungeons, she would never dream of killing a current extreme primal.

So no. There is no midcore. For me personally, midcore would be extremes or Criterions without timelimit. Its always the "we devs make it easy for us" Timelimit. That is also the Reason everybody has to slot full DPS materia on every Job that exists.

To me, mid-core is the design space of things which require some degree of time-investment/grind and learning mechanics/systems, without needing to invest into optimization or training schedules.

Anything that does not require "investment" or "planning" is casual. All of the social subsystems, retainers/trusts, Gold Saucer, roulettes, dungeons, most 24-man raids. A casual's rule of thumb is either (a) quick, or (b) hard to fail with no experience, or (c) not participating and going to some bar in the housing district.

Anything that requires substantial investment, particularly BiS, melding, strats, and statics, but also to an extent pots and food and add-ons, is hardcore. That definitely includes current tier savages and ultimates, but also current expansion savages and the current-tier extreme trial. There never is much hardcore content in FFXIV, with long droughts between patches, which is where we see a very vocal minority complain about "not enough content".

Mid-core is what exists in that space between the two, things that require too much skill or time to be of interest to casuals, but can be prepped/geared/trained for cheaply and quickly with reasonable odds of success. Anything that amounts to a boring "grind" is naturally going to gravitate to this middle zone: Eureka, Bozja, Diadem/crafting, older Extreme mounts and older Savage glams, alt job leveling and deep dungeons, Lord of Verminion. I would describe most self-contained and "parasitic" side content to fall into Mid-core, because it often is not consequential to the main story and casual enjoyment, is secluded away enough behind side quests and subsystems as to be easily neglected/missed, but also is absolutely not challenging to play once the player is oriented to the systems.

[Colt47]

I mean, the issue with FFXIV is that savage became more mainstream due to shadowbringers and it caused feedback to tilt towards the "progression = power" spectrum, as it got a lot of people into using savage as a gearing mechanism for jobs when it was supposed to be a self contained eco system for challenge runners. They added Ultimate into the game as well so now there is a question as to who savage is supposed to be for, since Ultimate is now the new challenge runner mode.

Effectively, savage is warping the system that they created for progression that was fair to just about anyone: Log in and do some kind of end game content, and regardless of what you did you would progress towards better item level. With Savage, someone can not only do that, but leap ahead of everyone else by getting the top end gear on week 2 where the baseline gear is just being introduced. Even if the actual change to stats is not much, it still creates an objectively better path as long as someone can also max tomestones in the same week as progressing savage. So someone could do the "mid core" content that doesn't give an advantage but just gives tomestones and maybe craft materials, or they can go do the slightly harder savage fight and get rewarded with power plus tomestones.

Like, the FFXIV team did this to themselves it isn't anyone in the community being evil here pointing out that they destroyed their own value proposition. There's no way anyone is going to do stuff like criterion or perhaps even unreal if they are just wasting time compared to the almighty gear grinder wheel they stuck in the middle of the game. Casual players are just going to keep doing roulettes and alliance raids so they aren't going to touch these things until they are in the past and they can go in unsync. Heck, even the new deep dungeon is easily ignorable unless someone is grinding up some job they haven't leveled, and PvP is just about the only other content in the patch that has a pull because of the time limited offerings. Not even sure if a casual player would engage in PvP but if anyone here who ignores EX fights, unreals, and criterion does PvP feel free to chime in.

[Musashidon]

can't hate something that doesn't exist mid core is a myth.