Dungeon Changes

All dungeons now just seem the same. Tanks pull 2 groups to be AoE down boss then rinse and repeat. ARR dungeons seemed so much better and more difficult. Please change the way all dungeons are exactly the same.

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Originally Posted by Sirren

All dungeons now just seem the same. Tanks pull 2 groups to be AoE down boss then rinse and repeat. ARR dungeons seemed so much better and more difficult. Please change the way all dungeons are exactly the same.

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You just noticed? wow. But I agree. It's been a long standing complaint here.

I don't know if Yoshi P reads the forums or not but something needs to change.

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Originally Posted by Sirren

I don't know if Yoshi P reads the forums or not

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he does but only the japanese forums not the english forum

I don't see what's wrong with them. The boss fights are different. I do like for them to put some interrupt casts on them though so that tanks have something to improve on with trash.

They want to avoid drama. If they put branching paths, people might fight over which path to take. If they put side paths, people might fight over wasting time going there. If they allow more trash to be pulled, people might fight over small pulls vs big pulls.

They changed to this type of format because people complained about non optimal dungeons.
The only reason ARR dungeons look appealing now is because most people are bored of the current version. No one really wants another aurum vale.

Aurum Vale is about the least offensive example of a "different" dungeon design as you could possibly get, though. Past the very first room, it's basically any other standard dungeon. Hell, the first room is basically just the formulaic corridor with a good handful more optional mobs condensed into one room, and the ones you do end up fighting out of necessity equate to fewer total than what the modern dungeon's corridors contain. The main reason people abhor it is because that first room can be a death trap for newbies.

People don't hate dungeon design, they hate having to account for other players. It's like having to deal with traffic on the road; someone is so conditioned to just find it frustrating, even in a case where it isn't. Even the idea of players having differing goals in a dungeon sends people into "Well everyone will hate it! Nobody wants it!" chant, even if all people want is a breakaway from the [mob pack > wall > mob pack > boss > repeat x2] design that has become so frustratingly formulaic.

They should add smaller dungeons with different objectives. Maybe some could have a king of the hill mode, eliminate certain maybe target in the dungeon. I would like to see more random events pop up in dungeons or a nemesis system. Doesn’t have to be 3 bosses with adds in between.

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Originally Posted by Sirren

All dungeons now just seem the same. Tanks pull 2 groups to be AoE down boss then rinse and repeat. ARR dungeons seemed so much better and more difficult. Please change the way all dungeons are exactly the same.

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Dungeons are not designed to be difficult. They are designed for the masses. I also do not agree that ARR dungeons were better. If you don't enjoy the current design do something else or go outside.

Just look at the current WoW design in dungeons compared to classic. Although retail dungeons still have more appeal than current FFXIV dungeons im9

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Just look at the current WoW design in dungeons compared to classic. Although retail dungeons still have more appeal than current FFXIV dungeons im9

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WoW in general does dungeons the best by far out of the MMO's I've played, imo. It curbstomps XIV's and it even close for me.

It's nice Variant has different pathways, but they still ultimately are linear hallways with mobs that you kill to get to the next boss.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

WoW in general does dungeons the best by far out of the MMO's I've played, imo. It curbstomps XIV's and it even close for me.

It's nice Variant has different pathways, but they still ultimately are linear hallways with mobs that you kill to get to the next boss.

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Meh. I agree about the less linear aspect of WOW dungeons. But the bosses are really ridiculous on normal difficulties, with a completely dispensable strategy (much more so than in FF); and most of them are very poorly staged (you wonder what you're there for).

No, WOW's real strength in dungeons is the packs in the higher difficulties (MM+). The presence of buffs, debuffs and other effects to control, the fact that you have to focus on particular mobs or risk a wipe: all these aspects are absent from FF and give the impression of monotony. Much more so than the "corridor" effect.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

They changed to this type of format because people complained about non optimal dungeons.
The only reason ARR dungeons look appealing now is because most people are bored of the current version. No one really wants another aurum vale.

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I do.

I want dungeon where I have to be a tank. Not a punching ball with a magic button which keep mobs focus on you and... That's it. Let me LOS, do intelligent pull, work on the mobs location so the melee can do their positionnal correctly.

I want dungeon where I have to stress heal because said pull didn't go right.

And I want dungeon where, as a dps, I have to kill something ASAP or it will be a disaster (and give us more utility buttons, please).

A lot of "I, ME, PERSONALLY". I know. But please don't use the "You don't know what you really want" argument.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

No, WOW's real strength in dungeons is the packs in the higher difficulties (MM+). The presence of buffs, debuffs and other effects to control, the fact that you have to focus on particular mobs or risk a wipe: all these aspects are absent from FF and give the impression of monotony. Much more so than the "corridor" effect.

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To be fair this game has it a bit in certain dungeons such as Dohn Mheg (interrupts or they get significantly buffed), Amaurot (certain enemies target a non-tank with constant damage), Akadaemia Anyder (multiple interruptable raid-wides that can be prevented to make the healing easier), I think The Twinning had one but it's been a while.

This may be news to people reading this because people just ignored the interrupts and did aoe, even if the healer had more work. In fact I saw people not using the interrupts in the latest alliance raid's trash once.

The trash in criterion has this sort of stuff where you might wish to remove one of the enemies more than the other.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

To be fair this game has it a bit in certain dungeons such as Dohn Mheg (interrupts or they get significantly buffed), Amaurot (certain enemies target a non-tank with constant damage), Akadaemia Anyder (multiple interruptable raid-wides that can be prevented to make the healing easier), I think The Twinning had one but it's been a while.

This may be news to people reading this because people just ignored the interrupts and did aoe, even if the healer had more work. In fact I saw people not using the interrupts in the latest alliance raid's trash once.

The trash in criterion has this sort of stuff where you might wish to remove one of the enemies more than the other.

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Indeed, the last dungeons are more interesting. But the number of these necessary interruptions still needs to be increased, as do the trash features in my opinion.

Because right now, as a healer... Well, it doesn't make much difference whether the guys interrupt or not. Unless you're new, uncomfortable with your job, or the whole group is very poorly geared.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

he does but only the japanese forums not the english forum

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They do check on English forums from time to time, but they stated times and times again that people have better chances on getting their proposals translated and delivered if they create one big thread with a lot of likes and constructive comments instead of creating 10823904 small ones with little to none interactions. Having major active threads proved to be very much effective with some things (like Viera and Hrothgar big threads, although we're yet to see changes on some things if ever; the fact we're getting some older items gender unlocked was also the result of having a couple of big threads asking for it).

People seem, however, to keep being stubborn on creating new threads instead of using the existing ones to the point of complaining on "necroposting" (when technically that would the exact right thing to do - to find an existing thread covering your topic and post there instead of making a new one that will drown among others like many other 1-2 post threads).

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Originally Posted by Zairava

WoW in general does dungeons the best by far out of the MMO's I've played, imo. It curbstomps XIV's and it even close for me.

It's nice Variant has different pathways, but they still ultimately are linear hallways with mobs that you kill to get to the next boss.

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I was really impressed how they turned an entire zone into a huge dungeon where you can fly on your dragon.

Seriously wish FFXIV would experiment more with their dungeons. Just because this is just roulette content fodder doesnt mean we shouldnt have more substantial stuff to pass the 15 or so minutes of a run

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Just look at the current WoW design in dungeons compared to classic. Although retail dungeons still have more appeal than current FFXIV dungeons im9

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Honestly, even the casino-infused garbage that Lost Ark is, has better dungeons and world instances.
FFXIV questing and instance design is ancient and I'm impressed absolutely no effort has been put into making the experience better.

I'm still here by virtue of this being the only MMO that's not WoW that doesn't expects me to swipe a card to progress or invest ungodly amounts of time just to be "decent" on it; if LA wasn't a scam or The Secret World wasn't abandoned, I would move there without issue.

Lost ark dungeons were a joke also that game doesn’t do tank healers dps.

Wow dungeons are also a joke outside mythic plus.

Really I don’t think these should change but they should add a mythic plus. Problem then is what do you get by doing it probably wouldn’t be gear.

Really if they add branching paths without rewards those will get skipped. A few extra mobs though hardly changes anything. I kinda like the way it is now get in get out ez no fuss.

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

Really I don’t think these should change but they should add a mythic plus.

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That is clearly the intention of criterion and criterion savage. The trash in criterion is more dangerous and can even wipe. Criterion savage simply makes the enemies more dangerous and adds a time limit and a need to restart the instance if you wipe. That is their version of mythic plus and it was aimed at people who wanted mythic plus.

Obviously, what many of us were asking of was the existing dungeons to simply be given scaled up, harder versions with things such as time limits and lack of telegraphs, but they decided to do it by making entirely new types of dungeons.

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Really if they add branching paths without rewards those will get skipped.

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That argument has been solved by SE already with variant dungeons. SE thought hard about how to make branching paths actually work and variant dungeons is how they have achieved it.

But it makes you wonder that perhaps they could just use the variant design for normal dungeons instead so they can invest the variant resources elsewhere.

I think I'd be mostly happy with dungeons if they got rid of the trash entirely. 95% of trash pulls provide the exact same experience, so after this many expansions it just fees like pointless filler to pad out the experience. If there's a trash pull that isn't providing me with a unique challenge, it's wasting my time.

Which is a shame, because dungeon bosses can be so fun! I just don't want to wade through pointless trash to get to them. So I don't.

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Originally Posted by Mayhemmer

People don't hate dungeon design, they hate having to account for other players. It's like having to deal with traffic on the road; someone is so conditioned to just find it frustrating, even in a case where it isn't. Even the idea of players having differing goals in a dungeon sends people into "Well everyone will hate it! Nobody wants it!" chant, even if all people want is a breakaway from the [mob pack > wall > mob pack > boss > repeat x2] design that has become so frustratingly formulaic.

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This is really the core of the problem. Dungeons, raids, and trials (and job designs) are so formulaic because most players have no patience for inefficiency and failure. This is a problem for all online games but is especially disappointing for MMOs, which at least give off the appearance of being more social and collaborative.

Unless and until the community fosters a culture of caring less about speed clears than it does about simply enjoying the game and growing alongside other players, this is going to remain the design. The low skill threshold is necessary for accessibility (which equates to lower wait times) and consistency (which equates to faster clears). And sorry stupid humans, but I just don't think that many of you are so altruistic.

I don't play pug content, including roulettes, unless I am fine failing and don't mind teaching people things. Not that I think the game will ever change, but if it did: the only solution is for players to take on the burden of creating consistency and clears through community pedagogy, instead of relying on the game's own willingness to remove complexity and challenge inherent to its design.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

I do.

I want dungeon where I have to be a tank. Not a punching ball with a magic button which keep mobs focus on you and... That's it. Let me LOS, do intelligent pull, work on the mobs location so the melee can do their positionnal correctly.

I want dungeon where I have to stress heal because said pull didn't go right.

And I want dungeon where, as a dps, I have to kill something ASAP or it will be a disaster (and give us more utility buttons, please).

A lot of "I, ME, PERSONALLY". I know. But please don't use the "You don't know what you really want" argument.

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I started playing around patch 3.2, and I still remember when tanks would priority mark every enemy in every trash pack, and when you didn't just wall-to-wall and facetank in every dungeon. I remember hearing dungeons would be "harder" in ShB and thinking maybe healers and casters would have to utilize sleep on dangerous enemies. Funny foolish me, hehe. Obviously I can't expect the game to not evolve over the years since then, but I still do miss a lot of it. Maybe it's nostalgia from an era where the game was new to me and I'm pining to experience all the things I didn't get to back in that era of the game, but I think I just want them to shake things up again in a way that's deeper than adding instant-kill mechanics on every other mob.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This is really the core of the problem. Dungeons, raids, and trials (and job designs) are so formulaic because most players have no patience for inefficiency and failure. This is a problem for all online games but is especially disappointing for MMOs, which at least give off the appearance of being more social and collaborative.

Unless and until the community fosters a culture of caring less about speed clears than it does about simply enjoying the game and growing alongside other players, this is going to remain the design. The low skill threshold is necessary for accessibility (which equates to lower wait times) and consistency (which equates to faster clears). And sorry stupid humans, but I just don't think that many of you are so altruistic.

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I wish it could be so, but alas. The engrained impatience and reactionary hostility to perceived slights is, itself, a cultural thing, just exasperated by online anonymity. I'd love if the devs started to experiment with dungeon design that required, or at the very least encouraged, some patience and co-operative decision making, and looked the naysayers straight in the eyes and said "If you'd like the experience to tailor more to your desires, please use the trust system."

I agree with OP on this.

Dungeon design used to at least have some gimmicks to them, and it's not like we haven't had puzzles and player interaction in dungeons before.

Even in the very first dungeon, Sastasha, players could go and look at the piece of paper at the beginning of the dungeon to avoid fighting extra mobs by flipping the correct colored switch in the second section.

The Sunken Temple of Qarn had the side paths for extra rewards.

The Wanderer's Palace had you killing specific mobs for drops to grease up rusted contraptions while you had someone kiting the invincible Tonberry Stalker.

Even something as simple as having to find keys in the more open-floorplan of Haukke Manor.

Heck, even as recently as Shadowbringers with Saint Mocianne's Arboretum (Hard) you had the mud-covered enemies that you could shower with water to drop their damage resistance.

I totally agree, dungeon design is currently extremely lazy as we just move from set piece to set piece without anything extra for players to do. I do really hope that they take the designs from variant dungeons and make them the default experience for actual dungeons moving forward. The formula of pausing for story set-pieces without any player interaction is getting extremely stale.

Honestly, I think having the trust system in place make it challenging for them to design anything where you'd have to work together as a team, but they can still add some kind of puzzle aspect or something other than just pull pack, kill, pull pack, kill, boss, kill, rinse, repeat.

Variant didn’t really solve anything though. It’s hard to group unless planned before so you end up soloing it

It’s only completed because of a Mount at the end but yes I disliked all 12 routes. And really all those paths are the same minus text choices or some gimmick that you have to look up before hand anyways completely invalidating it.

Realistically if you want good dungeons you Ned wows gearing system and mythic plus. Variant and Crit are not good enough it may very well be squares answer it’s just a bad answer.