SGE/RPR feedback thread crosspost

Just one I found and thought the comments were interesting and I know you guys have views on SGE: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...nd_sage_mains/

Basically asking the question "Now that EW is coming to an end and the “spotlight” on these jobs going with it and being shown on the two new jobs. What are you overall thoughts on them? Anyone can answer, but I’m mostly looking for responses of players that play them extensively and even into harder content (EX and up)"

As someone who has done what OP asks (Ex, Savage and Ultimate) as Sage my opinion is that the job feels like a bad joke from SE, something without any kind of care or thought behind it, but let me explain myself.

When we get a new job we have some expectations like the job having unique and developed mechanics, bringing something new to the table and in sage's case we were told that it would be a healer that uses it dps to heal and something for the healers that want a more offensive approach (by yoshi-p himself in Mr Happy's interview). We got none of that:

-Sage's Addersgall and its skills are a copy of Sch's Aetherflow, brings absolutely nothing new to the table and is not unique by any mean, same thing when talking about GCD heals.

-Eukrasia barely has any meaningful interaction with the kit, its a very underdeveloped mechanic.

-The dps-to-heal identity is only shown in 2 skills kardia and pneuma, its extremely underdeveloped and barely helps the job to differentiate from Sch

-Addersting is really bland and due to toxikon's nature it sees a very limited use in fights. Its one of the only job mechanics that I can remember that is more interesting in dungeons than anywhere else

-The dps rotation... Its a post shb healer rotation which is not sufficient for the content of the game let alone for a job that is supposed to appeal those who want a more offensive approach.

The job fails to develop a unique identity nor separate itself from Sch's shadow, the very few interesting things it has are all either on a 2m cd or barely used at all in general content. I think its a job that shows how SE is completely out of touch with healers because no dev with minimal healer experience would have greenlighted this.

And the worst part is that the job concept has potential to become something unique but I can't see SE using that potential. I sincerely hope that they prove me wrong in DT.

I like SGE's mobility. I also enjoyed playing it in a duo with SCH.
Other than that, it gave me an incurable brainrot.

I've only done up to EX and one savage fight as sage. WaxSw basically nailed it. But i'll add this. Nocturnal sect was removed from AST to make way for sage. And instead of taking a handful of ideas from noct ast and putting those in sage, they made sage a copy/paste of SCH which really shows that either the devs ran out of time, had no ideas, didn't care, didn't try, or some combination of the above.

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Originally Posted by SargeTheSeagull

I've only done up to EX and one savage fight as sage. WaxSw basically nailed it. But i'll add this. Nocturnal sect was removed from AST to make way for sage. And instead of taking a handful of ideas from noct ast and putting those in sage, they made sage a copy/paste of SCH which really shows that either the devs ran out of time, had no ideas, didn't care, didn't try, or some combination of the above.

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From some of Yoshi P's interviews prior to Endwalker, it sounds to me like PVP Sage greater respresents his original description of the job. He mentioned how Sage would be able to apply a barrier effect to allies through DPS, and when the barrier was broken, you would gain a DPS resource. PVE Sage has no way of applying barriers through DPS actions, but PVP Sage does. Eurkrasian Dosis grants a barrier, and when that barrier breaks, you get a charge of Toxikon II as a free OGCD DPS attack independent of Toxikon which is otherwise a regular OGCD attack with a short cooldown and charges. If we look at Alphinaud's MSQ instance battle, Toxikon is OGCD there as well.

I think Sage was going to have something closer to what PVP offers, but something happened that made them pivot, possibly balance concerns. And rather than finding a healthy solution, they just replicated Scholar more than whatever the job already had. Which was a massive mistake.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

From some of Yoshi P's interviews prior to Endwalker, it sounds to me like PVP Sage greater respresents his original description of the job. He mentioned how Sage would be able to apply a barrier effect to allies through DPS, and when the barrier was broken, you would gain a DPS resource. PVE Sage has no way of applying barriers through DPS actions, but PVP Sage does. Eurkrasian Dosis grants a barrier, and when that barrier breaks, you get a charge of Toxikon II as a free OGCD DPS attack independent of Toxikon which is otherwise a regular OGCD attack with a short cooldown and charges. If we look at Alphinaud's MSQ instance battle, Toxikon is OGCD there as well.

I think Sage was going to have something closer to what PVP offers, but something happened that made them pivot, possibly balance concerns. And rather than finding a healthy solution, they just replicated Scholar more than whatever the job already had. Which was a massive mistake.

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Insert meme of guy holding his chin while holding a cup with this foot going "hmmmm" here

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

From some of Yoshi P's interviews prior to Endwalker, it sounds to me like PVP Sage greater respresents his original description of the job. He mentioned how Sage would be able to apply a barrier effect to allies through DPS, and when the barrier was broken, you would gain a DPS resource. PVE Sage has no way of applying barriers through DPS actions, but PVP Sage does. Eurkrasian Dosis grants a barrier, and when that barrier breaks, you get a charge of Toxikon II as a free OGCD DPS attack independent of Toxikon which is otherwise a regular OGCD attack with a short cooldown and charges. If we look at Alphinaud's MSQ instance battle, Toxikon is OGCD there as well.

I think Sage was going to have something closer to what PVP offers, but something happened that made them pivot, possibly balance concerns. And rather than finding a healthy solution, they just replicated Scholar more than whatever the job already had. Which was a massive mistake.

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I'd never seen it presented that way before, but I could see it.

It does seem like late in the development cycle, they decided to make a sharp turn from what they were initially pitching it as. SGE isn't the only example - I remember watching the Media Tour of SMN and it showing that you were using Enkindle 2x during Bahamut (like ShB), but at some point, they decided against that and changed it.

I'm not sure the why of those changes, but I would believe there's something to what you're saying. The clues are there to make a compelling argument, anyway.

What is interesting to me, in that Reddit thread, especially since it's FFXIVDiscussion (not the mainsub itself), is how many people are happy with SGE. FFXIVDiscussion, when talking healers, tends to be a "-lite" version of here with most of the people agreeing with you and the others here, just more subdued and a bit more...balanced?...not sure the right word for it, but you get the idea; a toned down version of here.

But in that thread...the vast majority of posts seem to be really happy with SGE. Some wish it was a little more DPS focused, but are praising it at the same time, and many are outright praising it with no caveats. RPR, oddly enough, seems to be getting the (slightly) more mixed reception, but FFXIVDiscussion seems to actually like SGE a lot. I was not expecting that.

You have a interesting way of evaluating "happiness"

Check out the highest voted post. at 111 up-votes, it out-weighs all of what I would consider as clearly positive vote (e.g. I love sage, sage is 10/10, buttery smooth)

"Sage feels like it should have a more robust DPS kit and a different function for kardia. I don't really feel the job's core idea much at all - it heals when I DPS but my DPS kit is extremely limited and I'm always DPSing so it just feels like a regen in practice. There's no DPS move I have to save or think about, I just pop them off cool down

It's stylish though. Haima and snap shielding are fun and having to activate eukrasia tickle my brain."

When I look at this one, it doesn't come off as "happy". I can also find others which are more negative in tone.

Agreed, there are also positive ones , looking at them quickly I found three that totalled up to about 75.

So a quick review would tell me that it's not so much a "so many people are happy" but that it's a mixed bag. Yes, some people do like Sage, and some really like Sage, but a significant amount, possibly a majority, have issues with Sage. It's not what they expected, they may like some aspects, however they want to changes.

Frankly I can see both sides of the argument about Sage.

It does feel like they totally baited players by telling them it would be some ‘offensive-oriented healer’ that ‘heals through damage’, then it came out and it’s just Scholar again lol. It barely differentiates itself from the other healers and Kardia is just an invisible fairy less abilities. That’s not going into things like making Toxicon II a dps-loss but also making it pretty much the only heal-dps interaction the job has. Hell, White Mage is arguably more of an ‘offensive healer that heals through damage’ with Lily/Misery management and alignment.

On the other hand though, anytime SE talked about Sage before release, I always assumed it came with the caveat of ‘offensive healer… in the content of ffxiv ’. Which, while ultimately disappointing, makes how it actually came out start to make a sad amount of sense.

Personally I feel like the fact they made so little effort to differentiate it from Scholar hurts Sage a lot. I can honestly forsee them creating another ‘Heavensward Bard/Machinist’ style buff war in future. They’re so extremely similar that basically any kind of individuality puts one ahead of the other, so the devs will have to spend the entire expansion constantly rebalancing them throughout to try and stop them constantly overtaking each other.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Frankly I can see both sides of the argument about Sage.

It does feel like they totally baited players by telling them it would be some ‘offensive-oriented healer’ that ‘heals through damage’, then it came out and it’s just Scholar again lol. It barely differentiates itself from the other healers and Kardia is just an invisible fairy less abilities. That’s not going into things like making Toxicon II a dps-loss but also making it pretty much the only heal-dps interaction the job has. Hell, White Mage is arguably more of an ‘offensive healer that heals through damage’ with Lily/Misery management and alignment.

On the other hand though, anytime SE talked about Sage before release, I always assumed it came with the caveat of ‘offensive healer… in the content of ffxiv ’. Which, while ultimately disappointing, makes how it actually came out start to make a sad amount of sense.

Personally I feel like the fact they made so little effort to differentiate it from Scholar hurts Sage a lot. I can honestly forsee them creating another ‘Heavensward Bard/Machinist’ style buff war in future. They’re so extremely similar that basically any kind of individuality puts one ahead of the other, so the devs will have to spend the entire expansion constantly rebalancing them throughout to try and stop them constantly overtaking each other.

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I think you make some very good points. I would have to say that my expectations were along the lines of an ‘offensive-oriented healer’ that ‘heals through damage’, although the initial trailer was less than impressive- aside from pretty animations- and as you say it was pretty much as SCH clone. So I would go into the 'lukewarm' or the 5/10 camp - has promise, however needs work.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

But in that thread...the vast majority of posts seem to be really happy with SGE. Some wish it was a little more DPS focused, but are praising it at the same time, and many are outright praising it with no caveats. RPR, oddly enough, seems to be getting the (slightly) more mixed reception, but FFXIVDiscussion seems to actually like SGE a lot. I was not expecting that.

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Literally the most upvoted post by a wide margin is a complaint on SGE and the 2nd most upvoted is a sarcasm answer that says that War does the offensive healer fantasy better regarding to Sage while the most upvoted RPR is a praise

As IDontPetLalas said, its an "interesting" way of evaluation that reminds me of that speedrun thread

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

You have a interesting way of evaluating "happiness"

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As I've said before many times, up/downvotes aren't a good metric, individual posts are. The people most opinionated are actually writing posts, and unless a site has an extremely robust upvote/downvote system (where it logs the users and IPs that they came from to establish there is no cheesing the system AND where every poster is required to rate every other post - in other words, something that never happens), it's not worth much. Too many times, you have certain groups prone to brigade up/downvoting things while more moderate people just make their own post and move on, maybe just skimming a few other posts.

When I read through all the comments (when I first posted it, I read all the way down), there were more individual posts praising SGE than posts dunking on it, and even most of the negative posts were "I would like it to have a bit more DPS focus, but I like it overall and think it's a good baseline" sorts of comments.

Yes, there are some more negative in tone, but there were a lot very positive. It seems the overall consensus, if such a thing exists, was "It's a better SCH".

Regardless, the point was, compared to here, a lot more seem happy with it. I trust you find that an acceptable evaluation, considering the number of people here who will praise it is...maybe 3?

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Originally Posted by Renathras

"It's a better SCH".

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Then the issue is that we didn't actually get a new healer, we got 'a healer we already have, but with the clunk addressed', in which case, why did we need to add SGE, instead of just making SCH have less clunk in its kit directly?

Besides, if the prevailing opinion is 'it is a better SCH', that means that the opinion of SGE is now contingent on the opinion of SCH. So, if the opinion of SCH was 'it's god awful and needs to be deleted from the game', for example, then 'SGE is a better SCH' is not a high bar to clear. But we don't know what the prevailing opinion of SCH is because it wasn't asked, so now we have an equally nebulous 'opinion' of SGE that requires clarification, and likely isn't going to get any. So we've gone in a circle.

Also, I would argue that while only the people who hold stronger opinions would feel moved to write a comment, the accessibility of 'hey I agree with this, upvoted', literally a single click, means that up/downvoting things can be used as a fairly reliable metric of 'I agree/disagree with what was said here'. Sometimes people brigade the post and massvote it, but those instances are few and far between, not often enough to taint the concept. I see plenty of times where someone posts an idea on, say, the OSRS reddit, for a new minigame or skill training method, and if it's trash bad, it gets downvoted, and if it's good it gets upvoted. I don't recall seeing something that was undeniably bad design get upvoted, for example. And OSRS is one of the most 'I don't want any changes to my 25 year old game' games there is, so these suggestions get subjected to rigorous scrutiny on the regular

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Originally Posted by Renathras

As I've said before many times, up/downvotes aren't a good metric, individual posts are. The people most opinionated are actually writing posts, and unless a site has an extremely robust upvote/downvote system (where it logs the users and IPs that they came from to establish there is no cheesing the system AND where every poster is required to rate every other post - in other words, something that never happens), it's not worth much. Too many times, you have certain groups prone to brigade up/downvoting things while more moderate people just make their own post and move on, maybe just skimming a few other posts.

When I read through all the comments (when I first posted it, I read all the way down), there were more individual posts praising SGE than posts dunking on it, and even most of the negative posts were "I would like it to have a bit more DPS focus, but I like it overall and think it's a good baseline" sorts of comments.

Yes, there are some more negative in tone, but there were a lot very positive. It seems the overall consensus, if such a thing exists, was "It's a better SCH".

Regardless, the point was, compared to here, a lot more seem happy with it. I trust you find that an acceptable evaluation, considering the number of people here who will praise it is...maybe 3?

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While this will doubtless fly over your head again, you are not the only person who is appreciative of how Reddit can upvote or down/vote comments, and indeed I (and probably others in this thread) did not simply count votes, but (gasp) actually read the comments as well - even all the way down.

Shocking, isn't it, that we aren't as shallow as you think?

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Then the issue is that we didn't actually get a new healer, we got 'a healer we already have, but with the clunk addressed', in which case, why did we need to add SGE, instead of just making SCH have less clunk in its kit directly?

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Honestly, no idea. I'm kind of with Ty that they probably initially were designing SGE to be more like the PvP version but, late in development, decided not to for some reason and kind of scrambled for the nearest exit and made "a better SCH" kind of by accident more than by intent. It's just a hypothesis, but seems reasonable.

What people seem to like about it is that it's smooth and not really clunky, which is the opposite of what most people who pine for SB healers want. In a way, or perhaps an ideal (*cough*4healers*cough*) world, they'd have made SGE and shfited SCH away from what it is back to what it was to appeal to both groups. Both those that like what SCH has become (SGE) and those why liked what it used to be (SCH). Of course, they didn't, so...who even knows. But the end result is that SGE seems to be broadly popular.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

While this will doubtless fly over your head again, you are not the only person who is appreciative of how Reddit can upvote or down/vote comments, and indeed I (and probably others in this thread) did not simply count votes, but (gasp) actually read the comments as well - even all the way down.

Shocking, isn't it, that we aren't as shallow as you think?

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When I say people attack me, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I can only reply to what you posted - which was you mentioning the most liked posts based on number of likes - not what you may have done...but didn't say in your post. I can't reply to what you didn't say:

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Check out the highest voted post. at 111 up-votes, it out-weighs all of what I would consider as clearly positive vote (e.g. I love sage, sage is 10/10, buttery smooth)

...

Agreed, there are also positive ones , looking at them quickly I found three that totalled up to about 75.

So a quick review would tell me that it's not so much a "so many people are happy" but that it's a mixed bag. Yes, some people do like Sage, and some really like Sage, but a significant amount, possibly a majority, have issues with Sage. It's not what they expected, they may like some aspects, however they want to changes.

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Note the parts I emphasized with underlines. You talk about counting the votes, and then "a quick review" and "looking at them quickly"; quick review/looking at them quickly doesn't mean "read all the replies in the thread".

You can't fault me for having the wrong take on your post when your post itself presents things that way.

What clunk was there in SB on healers? I'd argue there's more clunk now for SCH than there was in SB, specifically because they removed Rouse (buffs the fairy) and added Seraph (replaces the fairy with a separate entity, with a separate action queue), leading to potential ghosting of actions. If you'd said HW, I'd agree, Cleric was clunky, but SB? Really?

Or is this another case of 'the entire worldview is tainted because it was only experienced through the lens of WHM', because if I (and probably others) are going to say SB was not clunky, and you say it is, having mainly played WHM at that time, surely the issue lies with WHM specifically? Which just proves again that SE's idea of the 'pure healer' is the heart of the problem

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

What clunk was there in SB on healers?

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On SCHOLAR specifically?

Even more ghosting, less responsive Faerie, worse AI on Eos (somehow even worse AI on Selene, and to this day I'm not sure WHY), Dissipation meant you had to resummon your Faerie once it finished, the various iterations of Aetherflow, the various iterations of Miasma 2, some issues with clipping to use oGCDs (particularly Deploy, though you could also deploy Succor off of Selene, which was cool...but also clearly not intended and yet more clunk). Oh, and the macros for pet abilities. Some people loved them, but everyone said they were clunky at the time and many people wanted something else. That's the entire reason Aetherpact was introduced in the first place, specifically to address that issue.

One of the consistent points of praise for SCH in both ShB AND EW was that it became progressively less clunky with each expansion. Even people badmouthing SCH in ShB largely did say they liked the pet AI and ghosting improvements, as they were worse in SB.

It's somewhat odd to me you're asking this since it's long been pretty standard accepted and stated by everyone I've ever read that SB's SCH was more clunky. You're...the first person I've ever seen say the opposite. Don't get me wrong, people praise SB SCH all the time. That isn't at all uncommon. But until this discussion, I thought everyone agreed it was more clunky. Interesting you're holding the contra position now. Guess it is in vogue, though, to say everything possible must be worse with no exceptions. But no, the common perception at the time was that SB was more clunky, and with EW's launch, SCH's pet AI improvements and general usability were praised, even by people that still felt the Job was weaker than its SB (skills) incarnation.

And I mained SCH, not WHM, in SB.

If you think it was less clunky in SB than now, I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise, but there was absolutely clunk and this was openly discussed going into 5.0 at the time, so it's kinda weird you missed that...

I'm not arguing there was zero clunk, just that I remember less in those days than in SHB and onwards. I think I've ghosted more actions in SHB and EW than all of ARR/HW/SB because of Seraph. The only thing you list that I'd fully agree was pure garbo clunkjank was Dissipation, and it still is to a degree

Maybe I'm just bad at SCH and it's user error who knows

I'd argue that allowing Eos or Selene any opportunity to actually auto cast anything was the only user error here ;)

In HW I used a Corsair K90 with it's big macro key bank to force mash Embrace on the target of my choice, this was coupled with another macro key that would pause the embrace spam long enough for Whispering Dawn to cast. That paired with habitual /place usage saw me with little to no issues. I will note that in Sol at least, the consensus amongst the SCH mains was that it was better to let Selene autocast her haste buffs. Eos was full manual all the way.

For SB I switched to a K95 and had trouble getting the same macro setup to work so instead bound my arrow keys to gamepad buttons and had the macro keys mash that to drive Embrace spam instead. I distinctly remember not needing a pause macro for WD which is an improvement I guess? I also distinctly remember feeling like I dodged a bullet with my habitual fairy placement micro managing, was an auto following fairy canceling it's casts or something? Dissipation was indeed absolute dogs**** though. I flat out refused to use it or it's opener.

I'm with Roe on Seraph for sure, that thing ate Eos cooldowns for breakfast and I'm glad I stopped bothering with SCH shortly after.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Honestly, no idea. I'm kind of with Ty that they probably initially were designing SGE to be more like the PvP version but, late in development, decided not to for some reason and kind of scrambled for the nearest exit and made "a better SCH" kind of by accident more than by intent. It's just a hypothesis, but seems reasonable.

What people seem to like about it is that it's smooth and not really clunky, which is the opposite of what most people who pine for SB healers want. In a way, or perhaps an ideal (*cough*4healers*cough*) world, they'd have made SGE and shfited SCH away from what it is back to what it was to appeal to both groups. Both those that like what SCH has become (SGE) and those why liked what it used to be (SCH). Of course, they didn't, so...who even knows. But the end result is that SGE seems to be broadly popular.



When I say people attack me, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

I can only reply to what you posted - which was you mentioning the most liked posts based on number of likes - not what you may have done...but didn't say in your post. I can't reply to what you didn't say:



Note the parts I emphasized with underlines. You talk about counting the votes, and then "a quick review" and "looking at them quickly"; quick review/looking at them quickly doesn't mean "read all the replies in the thread".


You can't fault me for having the wrong take on your post when your post itself presents things that way.

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So your natural assumption was that 'quick' necessitated incomplete or cursory review? I see, no it was quick as in "the actual time spent", but not incomplete. You can count upvotes based upon your rather dubious interpretation of how the feedback was on that thread, or you can tally up each post, however "the end result is that SGE seems to be broadly popular' is only partially telling the truth, it would be at least equally, if not more accurate, to say that many people are disappointed with multiple aspects of Sage.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

So your natural assumption was that 'quick' necessitated incomplete or cursory review? I see, no it was quick as in "the actual time spent", but not incomplete. You can count upvotes based upon your rather dubious interpretation of how the feedback was on that thread, or you can tally up each post, however "the end result is that SGE seems to be broadly popular' is only partially telling the truth, it would be at least equally, if not more accurate, to say that many people are disappointed with multiple aspects of Sage.

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/sigh

No. Just no.

This reads like you made a statement, I correctly replied, then you wanted to take a dig at me, and I correctly pointed out you were incorrect to do so, and instead of backing down, you try to defend the incorrect dig.

Say whatever you want, I'm not going to bother with that kind of stupidity.

.

To the point on the end:

It would be more accurate to say "SGE is broadly popular (would rate above a 5.0 overall), but many people are disappointed with various aspects of SGE while many people are also very satisfied with various aspects of SGE." Your take is a "glass half empty" one.

Sage:
I'm not a fan, not because its bad but because of what it could have been, personally I prefer playing Scholar but both are very similar jobs. Kardia should be more interactive, I like the design and look of the job... I guess Healers are all in the same boat for me anyway, I really don't know why astro had to have it's barriers took away though.

Reaper:
It's alright? I like the other 4 melee dps better, but Reapers fine... Just I wish you had more basic combo actions I guess, Looks wise its very cool? I kinda wish it was just a tad bit more involved during down time job generally feels a bit too easy rotation wise.

In general I think both jobs were a letdown to me personally but that's just how I feel about it. I can understand why others may enjoy the jobs.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Sage:
I'm not a fan, not because its bad but because of what it could have been, personally I prefer playing Scholar but both are very similar jobs. Kardia should be more interactive, I like the design and look of the job... I guess Healers are all in the same boat for me anyway, I really don't know why astro had to have it's barriers took away though.

Reaper:
It's alright? I like the other 4 melee dps better, but Reapers fine... Just I wish you had more basic combo actions I guess, Looks wise its very cool? I kinda wish it was just a tad bit more involved during down time job generally feels a bit too easy rotation wise.

In general I think both jobs were a letdown to me personally but that's just how I feel about it. I can understand why others may enjoy the jobs.

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Because people complain how bad noc stance was and wanted it to be gone in the first place, or overall when ast just came out it got mass hate on how weaker copied clone of whm/sch it was? I mean this is what happens because there is always people not satisfied, and this is what sage is pretty much facing old astro noct hate abuse. Its the same exact echo chamber of complaints mess that have now passed on to sage, also the fairy of sch should be more interactive too like kardia. Hey ill go off topic and say the crafter jobs too should be different cause they are 90% clone of each other. Up coming viper job looks like another copied paste ninja to me.

While sage yes has most of sch kit , it still has some what different things being more of a mit healer than a barrier healer, pani/hami=makes those hard hitting nasty akh ron w.e they call mechs a meme, way better mobility since everything is instant movement minus using dosis, not punished as much as the other 3 jobs for dying . It has 3 dps buttons dosis/phela/toxi and actually is the first healer to have a early to access aoe cause of phel. I also do not see why toxicon 2 is claim a dps lost when it comes in handy when you have no time to press regular dosis because you gotta be constantly moving to mechs at times. Finally my wish I was hoping and it did happen was that its the first healer with a gap closer, yes it aint all that good like blms more fluent one but its something at least.

Ast is the same now mostly a whm clone just more I guess less janky with cheaper mp spells+infinite mp cause lucid+draw+astrodynejust like how sge is less janky than sch just the fact its a better whm that also gives some dry bread buffs which is a waste of time imo. Please see dancer/monk/bard/dragoon who seems to give better party buff than ast does anyways ^.^

just a reply to above (out of space)
I don't really recall people saying they wanted to remove noc stance? at least that's nothing i really heard at the time. I'm not saying they shouldn't have made sage either, I don't think the game would have much issues if we had 3 barrier healers and 2 pure healers... they will most likely add in another healer at some point. I personally really liked the idea behind ast having two different stances though I've never complained about it's barriers.

Funny thing is astro with barriers felt more unique to sage for me, SCH also has a lot of mits you're comparing apples to oranges here, I'm sure if you went through each healing kit theirs going to be some differences and advantages, but to me it doesn't really feel that different. Both are very built similar though and I think I'm more annoyed with how I thought sage was going to play as a "battle healer who heals by doing damage!" I think you could even make kardia more interactive (like buffing it to be aoe, buffing it to give barrier healing) obviously Soteria does this to a extent but they could build upon that identity.

Ast cards are actually pretty fun, I'd prefer some changes but I actually like it compared to just pressing a 120 buff window, I don't know where you'd get that for Monk? (it has a single raid buff?) It's also different in the fact white mage is a gcd healer and Ast is very dependent on their ogcds... I don't know I feel like astro is more unique to me.

I'm glad you enjoy sage even if it's not for me really, I much rather stick to astro or scholar (or any other job really, healer isn't my favourite design in this game despite me generally enjoying support roles way more in most other games).

The complaints about Noct Sect at the time were essentially that it was not very comparable to SCH in terms of power. It's debatable if that was because Noct was weak, or because SCH was busted strong (probably more the former pre-SHB, and definitely the latter with HW and SB) Off the top of my head, Crit Adlo Deploy back then would spread the full shield (rather than just half as it is now), allowing teams to 'delete mechanics' with how much mit they could achieve, and the Bubble comparison was an interesting one, with Soil being 15s, ground based (have to consider positioning somewhat) and 30s CD, whereas CU was 20s duration, stuck to the player (like Kerachole does now), but the big factor was the 60s CD. Well, after they had buffed Noct a couple of times, it was not good on release. Regardless, because of these factors it was a MUCH harder time for a Noct AST to handle certain things in higher end content. You'd have less overall mitigation to work with for something like Morn Afahs in UCOB, or Primal Roulette in UWU, just because of the cooldown

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I thought sage was going to play as a "battle healer who heals by doing damage!" I think you could even make kardia more interactive (like buffing it to be aoe, buffing it to give barrier healing) obviously Soteria does this to a extent but they could build upon that identity.

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The problem with that is that people who are good at the new-SGE would be able to do more damage than the people who are not as good, because they'd be able to use that damage>healing kit to reduce how much they need to use bad GCDs like Diagnosis and Prognosis. And apparently we can't have that /s

(I would also like to see such a thing, I've even made a post suggesting as much)

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The problem with that is that people who are good at the new-SGE would be able to do more damage than the people who are not as good, because they'd be able to use that damage>healing kit to reduce how much they need to use bad GCDs like Diagnosis and Prognosis. And apparently we can't have that /s

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The saddest thing about this is that it literally happens anyway lol. Even just something as simple as not understanding the relationship between gcd/oGCDs can make a pretty significant difference in dps output. Like, they literally gutted everything from healers so there would be next to no variation between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ healer… and they still failed lol

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

The complaints about Noct Sect at the time were essentially that it was not very comparable to SCH in terms of power. It's debatable if that was because Noct was weak, or because SCH was busted strong (probably more the former pre-SHB, and definitely the latter with HW and SB) Off the top of my head, Crit Adlo Deploy back then would spread the full shield (rather than just half as it is now), allowing teams to 'delete mechanics' with how much mit they could achieve, and the Bubble comparison was an interesting one, with Soil being 15s, ground based (have to consider positioning somewhat) and 30s CD, whereas CU was 20s duration, stuck to the player (like Kerachole does now), but the big factor was the 60s CD. Well, after they had buffed Noct a couple of times, it was not good on release. Regardless, because of these factors it was a MUCH harder time for a Noct AST to handle certain things in higher end content. You'd have less overall mitigation to work with for something like Morn Afahs in UCOB, or Primal Roulette in UWU, just because of the cooldown



The problem with that is that people who are good at the new-SGE would be able to do more damage than the people who are not as good, because they'd be able to use that damage>healing kit to reduce how much they need to use bad GCDs like Diagnosis and Prognosis. And apparently we can't have that /s

(I would also like to see such a thing, I've even made a post suggesting as much)

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In SBH When celestial was reworked noct ast was actually stronger since you can combine noct helios+celestial opp noct for a good party shield and I never struggled in content like the eden raids as a noct ast and the fact then you can use celestial inter which then gave a regen while shielding, actually if it was content below shadowbringers like old stormblood or hw alliance raid noct ast in some way defeated sch, because at that point sch have no recitation(the thing that makes their shield so broken to begin with), so they only had plain galv or even if they crit alco and spread it it wasnt stronger by much than the celestial opp noct+helio noct combo. Celestial also is just 60 seconds cd while dep tatic is 120s so an noct ast will pump out thicker shields than sch in content lower than shb. Honestly if recitation was gutted or deployment tatics didnt spread crit alcos at that point really sch pretty gg cause really if sage can spread a crit zoe e dig which is stronger than a crit alco at that point I doubt anyone would even bat an eye to sch , Holos makes Seraph just like?