The endangered DPS MP gauge

Over time, we have lost the TP gauge for certain reasons, and the MP gauge is used by less and less jobs today.

The only cases where it can still feel required or impactful in the current battle system are:

- Raise tax when raising too much (healers and RDM/SMN).
- Loosely related: overhealing with GCD when things go very wrong (healers).
- Black Mage core rotation.

Magical hybrid tanks aren't and haven't been constrained by MP since Stormblood. Bard and Machinist are not using their MP for raid buffs since Shadowbringers and Stormblood respectively. SMN hasn't been focused on MP management since Stormblood.

Healer and caster rotations haven't been truly MP negative since forever.

I am genuinely curious as to what SE intends for the MP gauge, now that it seems to be slowly and surely being supplanted by various job gauges? Does it still feel warranted in the current game system? Perhaps for healers, but what about DPS jobs? It just sits there, doing nothing?

Honestly, if they got rid of MP, I wouldn't mind. MP only has a place in 1 world: Where running out of MP not only matters, but can happen if you're inefficient with your resources.

This gameplay literally cannot exist in FFXIV. Even death only matters for healers because you lose most of your other resources as well (in addition to them being weakened.)

Sometimes I wish FFXIV could bring in WoW's triage meta, where healers have, what I believe to be, the best healer gameplay you can get. Where you have to make decisions every GCD about whether to damage, to heal. The power of the heal, if you should AoE or single target, fast or slow heals. Hell, their oGCDs in the past, both cost mana and have a cooldown making it inefficient to spam them for every tiny thing. I feel this gameplay better encapsulates healer gameplay at its core and, also, makes mana a resource that has to truly be managed.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure to follow (I never played WoW)? What is the difference with what we have? Spamming heals in XIV is a surefire way to run out of MP as well. Even more so as one wants to keep DPSing and having to burn GCDs for healing is inefficient. Do you mean maybe that the pervasiveness of oGCD heals are a problem?

Either way, I'm more concerned about DPS classes with this post, since it's in the DPS section. Healers are a different can of worms imo.

HP and MP are main staple stats within the FF franchise, TP was not. TP got removed because it served two purposes:

1.) Limit physical job AOE usage (where Casters weren't limited)
2.) Limit Sprint usage (when it cost your whole TP)

If TP was a mechanic where you spend TP like you spend Wrath, Blackblood, Aetherflow etc. (which it was in 4.x PvP lol) then TP wouldn't have been axed. But it was just a passive limiter which existed for resource maintenance for the sake of it. It also made Skillspeed infinitely worse than it needed to be.

MP serves as a limiter to Healers and SMN/RDM for Raise as well as limitting spell/GCD healing. It also is used for Paladins and fundamentally serves as a Clemency limiter. Black Mage and Dark Knight use MP as a fundamental resource for combat, one more than the other.

So no, they shouldn't get rid of MP, what they should do is two things:

1.) Make MP more integral on SMN and RDM. Bring back high MP cost spells that have MP cost lowered under certain buffs (like Ruin III did) or balance it with further MP generators (BLM lite kinda).
2.) let us split HP from MP like we can split buffs from debuffs and let us hide MP when we desire so.

Actually SMN hasn't been constrained by MP since HW, and even then it was only because Ruin 3 cost 1000mp outside of Dreadwyrm Trance.
And in reality it still wasn't really, unless you combined it with a LOT or ressing, which even throughout the Editions I don't think I've done much Ressing with SMN.

RDM though I've done a ton of it, and its the only time I've ever run out of MP on any job other than BLM. Most jobs haven't been constrained by MP since ARR when the amount of HP really was limited due to level.

Still the only job I've ever played where MP came into play repeatedly was BLM.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

HP and MP are main staple stats within the FF franchise, TP was not. TP got removed because it served two purposes:

1.) Limit physical job AOE usage (where Casters weren't limited)

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Casters were as limited by MP for AoE than physical jobs were limited for AoE by TP. Holy costed, for example, 1600 MP back then, and in a battle system where MP regened a lot slower. They ran out of resources as fast, except for BLM for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

MP serves as a limiter to Healers and SMN/RDM for Raise as well as limitting spell/GCD healing. It also is used for Paladins and fundamentally serves as a Clemency limiter. Black Mage and Dark Knight use MP as a fundamental resource for combat, one more than the other.

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Point taken for clemency, if just niche, and for DRK where it indeed acts a bit like for BLM as a limiter for how much you can use.

Also my point was for DPS jobs primarily, where MP concerns less and less jobs (essentially RDM and SMN at best, and just for raises).

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

So no, they shouldn't get rid of MP, what they should do is two things:

1.) Make MP more integral on SMN and RDM. Bring back high MP cost spells that have MP cost lowered under certain buffs (like Ruin III did) or balance it with further MP generators (BLM lite kinda).
2.) let us split HP from MP like we can split buffs from debuffs and let us hide MP when we desire so.

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I apologize if the point behind my post wasn't clear, but I'm actually complaining about the lack of use for our MP as DPS classes, and not just mages. Having that useless gauge is ridiculous, or idk, just axe it I guess as it would make it clearer that it's useless, but it would be sad.

I don't really think it's something that needs to be removed. But if it ever were, here's how I would handle it for SMN and RDM:


SMN

Spell: Resurrection
Cast time: 8s
Recast time: 2.5s
Resurrects target to a weakened state.
※ The cast time of this action cannot be reduced by the effects of Spell Speed or Swiftcast.

Trait: Resurrection Mastery
Grants the effect of Phoenix's Favor after using Aethercharge.
Phoenix's Favor effect: Upgrades Resurrection to Rebirth.

Spell: Rebirth
Cast time: Instant
Recast time: 30s
Resurrects target to a weakened state.
Can only be used under the effect of Phoenix's Favor.

RDM

Spell: Verraise
Cast time: 10s
Recast time: 2.5s
Resurrects target to a weakened state.
※ The cast time of this action cannot be reduced by the effects of Spell Speed, Swiftcast, or Dualcast.

Trait: Verraise Mastery
Grants the effect of Chain Raise after successfully completing a combo with Enchanted Redoublement or after three successful consecutive uses of Enchanted Moulinet.
Maximum Stacks: 3
Chain Raise effect: Upgrades Verraise to Verraise II.

Spell: Verraise II
Cast time: 2.0s
Recast time: 2.5s
Resurrects target to a weakened state.
Can only be used under the effect of Chain Raise.
The cast time of this action is affected by Spell Speed, Swiftcast, and Dualcast as normal.

This would restrict SMN to a single instant raise per minute and RDM up to three instant raises which would then take about two minutes to replenish completely. It would still allow either job to slowcast raise when out of charges, and this is probably okay in most cases as it's just the rapid Dualcast raises that are of greatest concern.


BLM changes would be a bit more involved, however.


BLM

• Ice spells are always free.
• While not under the effect of Astral Fire: all spells are free.
• While under the effect of Astral Fire: Fire, Lightning, and Paradox spells cost Umbral Sparks.
• Firestarter and Thundercloud reduce the costs of their corresponding spells to 0.
• Umbral Hearts reduce the cost of Fire spells by half.
• Umbral Sparks replenish at a rate of 3 per Umbral Ice stack per tick, up to a maximum of 12.
• While not under the effect of either elemental aspect, Umbral Sparks replenish at a rate of 1 per tick.
• Manafont restores 4 Umbral Sparks.

Umbral Sparks costs of spells under the effect of Astral Fire:

• Fire: 2
• (High) Fire II: 3
• Fire III: 4
• Fire IV: 2
• Flare/Despair: All, minimum 1
• Flare with Umbral Heart: All but 1, minimum 1
• Thunder I/III: 1
• Thunder II/IV: 2
• Paradox: 2

This would leave BLM largely unchanged in functionality...but if the goal is to remove MP just to have things still work the same, why remove MP in the first place?

The only time I usually run out of MP is in like a dungeon and im keeping both dps alive (fast > riot). Other then that sometimes on rdm if im not careful with using my lucid dreaming and i have to rez a lot, I think MP is good to keep red mage from being able to spam rez so much, it's already really powerful.

I'd kind of like specifically on Paladin for clemency to become a high cost MP ability (3000-4000 depending on what works) but OGCD, so you could maximise your mp use but spamming it badly will lock you out of magic attacks (Obviously nerfing sustain especially magic combo, for the sake of healers actually having to heal, but that's another topic) With Dark Knight and Black mage MP a big part of their kit as well so I don't think they would ever get rid of MP, I actually wouldn't mind more MP management but I don't think it's a big issue.

I think MP has a lot of room to be explored with certain jobs (like my PLD "idea"), I also just think it still serves a purpose right now, so I don't see any "endangerment"

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Originally Posted by Valence

Over time, we have lost the TP gauge for certain reasons, and the MP gauge is used by less and less jobs today.

The only cases where it can still feel required or impactful in the current battle system are:

- Raise tax when raising too much (healers and RDM/SMN).
- Loosely related: overhealing with GCD when things go very wrong (healers).
- Black Mage core rotation.

Magical hybrid tanks aren't and haven't been constrained by MP since Stormblood. Bard and Machinist are not using their MP for raid buffs since Shadowbringers and Stormblood respectively. SMN hasn't been focused on MP management since Stormblood.

Healer and caster rotations haven't been truly MP negative since forever.

I am genuinely curious as to what SE intends for the MP gauge, now that it seems to be slowly and surely being supplanted by various job gauges? Does it still feel warranted in the current game system? Perhaps for healers, but what about DPS jobs? It just sits there, doing nothing?

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The only way I can even drain it fast enough as SMN or RDM is through a spellspeed build or doing multiple raises. And even then that is still fixed by lucid dreaming.

Wouldn't be against WAR, GNB, and the physical DPS jobs getting to spend their MP in some capacity instead of just having that gauge awkwardly sit there. Stuff like Aurora/Equilibrium/Earth's Reply could be given MP costs instead of long cooldowns. Or they could swap it out and bring TP back just for those jobs, though that would require repurposing it in some manner.

It's not necessary to utilize a MP gauge if it's not thematically appropriate for the job. Some jobs just don't manipulate aether. This is not a new development in the series. In FFIV, as an example, your party's Dragoon, Monk, Bard, and Engineer permanently have 0 MP.

What would be more useful is if there was a setting to toggle off your MP gauge on jobs that don't use it, and a setting to have the simplified job gauge elements automatically snap into position next to your HP/MP bars. I also think that the Skill Speed/Spell Speed system should be merged into a singular Haste stat such that the design is more fair for gish jobs. It's nice thematically to have a few Spells instead of Weaponskills and vice versa, but your stats should benefit all of your GCDs. If that's not feasible due to technical issues, they should just change both stats to have the same effect.

"lets be honest, gauges are cooler than bars. They got the graphics and sound effects!"

but really, class gauges have replaced the mana bar across the entire genre. Maybe its because the singular purple/blue bar was a bit limiting? Try and break it down into what it's core function meant and ask if it was fun. "Use skills with this" and when it's empty "cant use skills".

Then what did we do after that? Auto attack? Pop elixirs? I mean nostaligia points if you liked it.

Who knows, maybe we could theorycraft a different purpose for the MP bar? But if so, aren't you literally just creating another class gauge? I could see exhaustive resources like this becoming a thing when the survival horror MMO genre takes off. But for combat based ones, I think we're moving away from MP being a thing entirely.

I do think that individual class resources built upon class specific gauges are here to stay though. They offer a more nuance than just giving you time frame until you cannot press your buttons anymore.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Some jobs just don't manipulate aether.

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In FFXIV, every class and job manipulates aether. There's little bits of magic in every job, even when it seems like all they're doing is swinging a sword or throwing a punch. Most just don't spend their aether on fireballs and glitter storms. The ones that don't have had their aether usage moved over to the varying job gauges, CP bar, or GP bar, but they're still doing aether things even if they're not mechanically using the MP bar.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not necessary to utilize a MP gauge if it's not thematically appropriate for the job. Some jobs just don't manipulate aether. This is not a new development in the series. In FFIV, as an example, your party's Dragoon, Monk, Bard, and Engineer permanently have 0 MP.

What would be more useful is if there was a setting to toggle off your MP gauge on jobs that don't use it, and a setting to have the simplified job gauge elements automatically snap into position next to your HP/MP bars. I also think that the Skill Speed/Spell Speed system should be merged into a singular Haste stat such that the design is more fair for gish jobs. It's nice thematically to have a few Spells instead of Weaponskills and vice versa, but your stats should benefit all of your GCDs. If that's not feasible due to technical issues, they should just change both stats to have the same effect.

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There's no defending a UI element that serves no purpose. Comparing it to jank from an early SNES game doesn't help its case, especially when them having 0 MP debunks the jobs in XIV that have it and don't use it. The WoL (and practically every non-Garlean) can manipulate aether just fine regardless of discipline, not to mention they have no issue using MP to heal themselves in PvP (INB4 PvP was never canon).

The only reason they have an MP gauge is because MRD/PGL/LNC/ROG could use additional actions like Cure in ARR/HW (again, strange if they can't manipulate aether), and this obsolete trait automatically carried over to GNB/SAM/RPR/DNC. Then you've got BRD&MCH losing their MP actions, despite no changes in lore saying they can't use MP.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

In FFXIV, every class and job manipulates aether.

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Strictly speaking, Garleans can't manipulate aether. So any battle technique that a Garlean could potentially use isn't powered by manipulating aether.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

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This reply is confusing. You've directly quoted the part where I recommended giving players the option to turn off MP bars for jobs that don't use it. I cited FFIV because there's no need to shoehorn every job into using MP just to validate an MP bar's existence.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

Wouldn't be against WAR, GNB, and the physical DPS jobs getting to spend their MP in some capacity instead of just having that gauge awkwardly sit there. Stuff like Aurora/Equilibrium/Earth's Reply could be given MP costs instead of long cooldowns. Or they could swap it out and bring TP back just for those jobs, though that would require repurposing it in some manner.

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I like the idea actually for support abilities that aren't even damage raid buffs, with obvious adjustment and constraints not to make them completely broken and spammable. I'm a definite proponent of putting back raid buffs (especially on buffer jobs aka DNC/BRD/MCH) behind MP for flexibility of use, adaptability to teams needs, and encounter downtime. So why not for some support abilities as well?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

It's not necessary to utilize a MP gauge if it's not thematically appropriate for the job. Some jobs just don't manipulate aether. This is not a new development in the series. In FFIV, as an example, your party's Dragoon, Monk, Bard, and Engineer permanently have 0 MP.

What would be more useful is if there was a setting to toggle off your MP gauge on jobs that don't use it, and a setting to have the simplified job gauge elements automatically snap into position next to your HP/MP bars. I also think that the Skill Speed/Spell Speed system should be merged into a singular Haste stat such that the design is more fair for gish jobs. It's nice thematically to have a few Spells instead of Weaponskills and vice versa, but your stats should benefit all of your GCDs. If that's not feasible due to technical issues, they should just change both stats to have the same effect.

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Technically in XIV lore every job makes full use of aether, even for non casters, but I get what you mean. Obviously axing the MP gauge off the physical jobs is a solution and I'm not totally opposed to it because it would remove something that isn't used anyway. I'm just sad that it's not used anymore for certain jobs, notably rphys, because it could actually be again, and for good reason imo. You can remove it for melee DPS, I don't care, they don't need it and never used it.