Auspices and Dynamis

Is there any evidence to support Auspices being a result of Dynamis? We learned in the Omicron quests that belief in something is sufficient to make it come true. In Ultima Thule this happens very quickly due to Dynamis density, but on Etheirys, could widespread belief over millenia that sometimes animals live long and gain powers, have come about simply as a result of people believing the superstition? They only exist in the far east where this is part of their culture and belief system but I haven't seen any evidence to support this. We just know Dynamis can make impossible things come true with enough belief. Thoughts?

There is no evidence to that effect.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

We learned in the Omicron quests that belief in something is sufficient to make it come true....We just know Dynamis can make impossible things come true with enough belief.

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This is only true in Ultima Thule. Ultima Thule is a place where "emotions dictate reality", presumably because it is exclusively comprised of dynamis. The same rules don't apply on Etheirys, presumably because Etheirys is mostly aether.

You know, when I saw the thread topic I thought we were gonna be talking about the aramitama. Which I'd never seen linked to dynamis before, and there's some logical problems with it (auspices are basically full of aether by sheer longetivity, so reasonably they'd be as similarly impregnable as the Ancients), but they're not insurmountable problems; there are pitches you could make to get there that I'd buy.

The OP is... not making those. The OP's theories are the sort that are so wrong that there's, unfortunately, no real concessions or ideas that can be put forward beyond 'no, that's not a thing'.

It's a bit tricky to draw definitive conclusions about what is aether and what is dynamis at the moment. Prior to 6.0, we were all running on the assumption that natural phenomenon were the byproduct of aether. Now we've encountered a major paradigm shift, and even seen that dynamis can give rise to life itself. I would expect aetheric studies researchers to be looking for a unifying theory to reconcile the differences between these two systems. If aether and dynamis are both forms of energy, is there a conservation law governing them both? Are there actually circumstances under which you can convert one to the other? The characters in game currently think you can't, but is there something out there that we just don't know yet?

As a case in point, the Twelve were transformed over time by our beliefs around them, despite not being primals and not being created by us (Dalamutt being one such example). In turn, they have brought our prayers to them back to the planet and its lifestream. On the surface, this sounds like abstract sentimentalism, but I can't help but wonder if there's a deeper significance in giving our 'hopes to the star'. It does seems like prayer does have a dynamis-mediated effect, at the very least. In Ultima Thule, we use the Scions' prayers to create a dynamis-mediated barrier to survive Ultimate Fate. Is it possible that the emotions and experiences of the living get transformed into fresh aether over time through the cycle of souls? Does the star actually need us to experience these things to keep running? In short, are these truly two disconnected systems of physical laws that never intersect, or is there one overarching system of rules that governs both dynamis and aether as part of a grand cycle that we haven't yet identified?

I have no definite answers to any of these questions, but I personally think it's best to keep your mind open and see how the writers explore the two concepts in the future. Our attachment to theories and laws aren't as important as their ability to explain our findings. I think the safest answer to 'What is dynamis-mediated' right now is 'I don't really know,' (but I'm definitely curious).

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I have no definite answers to any of these questions, but I personally think it's best to keep your mind open and see how the writers explore the two concepts in the future. Our attachment to theories and laws aren't as important as their ability to explain our findings. I think the safest answer to 'What is dynamis-mediated' right now is 'I don't really know,' (but I'm definitely curious).

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My own personal problem with a lot of what's going on is that the more you explain your setting's magic system, the less like magic it appears to be and the more out of place subsequent additions like dynamis are.

I feel like a lot of the world lost its charm when it turned out that everything from (probably) most of the world's fantastical monsters, to migratory birds, to the elementals ended up being "the Ancients did it". I don't think everything needs to be fully explained, especially when things aren't kept consistent anyway.


In this case, I'd prefer the explanation that they're just animals that cultivated qi(aether) for whatever set amount of time causing them to gain sentience and power, like the yaoguai/yokai from Chinese/Japanese myths that they're inspired from.

As has already been explained, our world even sundered is too dense in aether for dynamis to have much of an effect. It took prayer from millions of people over thousands of years to have an effect on the Twelve that ended up being not much more than "Menphina has a dog now". I don't think a general belief that something could happen would lead to animal demigods. The auspices and the Kojin relics that may or may not contain actual kami feels like the last frontier of unexplainable magic in the game that isn't dissected by an in-game scientist and I want to hold on to it being that way for a while and hope we bump into weird things in Tural that don't fit our currently understanding of aether.

I agree with the idea of 'preserving mystery', but the problem lies specifically with aether. Aether is the 'science' of FFXIV. It follows very clear cut rules and has researchers who engage with it using scientific principles. It's no coincidence that the two societies most invested in aetheric research, Sharlayan and Amaurot, are rooted in a Greco-Roman tradition, much like our own society. The problem that we've hit in the lore is that in tying everything back to Amaurot, we've also tied it mostly back to aetheric principles with predictable rules and outcomes that don't allow for mystery. And you're right, the world is all the more sterile for it.

But this is not about tying the Auspices to aether - it's the opposite.

Dynamis, or Akasha, is a fascinating counterpoint to all this. I suspect the reason why a few people struggle with it so much is because of they view it through the lens of a Western cultural bias. Akasha is the Sanskrit equivalent of the Greek Aether. It's rooted in Eastern mysticism and spirituality. It's the passion to your thought. It's interesting that you use the phrase 'out of place', because it is very much the 'other' to aether. But the worldbuilding possibilities are all the more richer for its inclusion.

It may be that Dynamis is just a once-off lore quirk that only applies to outer space and flowers (unlikely, given that the term carries a sentimental reference to FFXI as well, albeit in a different context). But this is the way out that problem that I described earlier. The Ancients didn't know everything, and Dynamis was one glaring hole in their knowledge base. As long as it exists, there are going to be things out there that aether alone cannot explain or quantify. And there are going to be gaps in our knowledge and worldview as a result, too. So keep your mind open - there still might be a bit of real magic out there yet.

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Hermes: In creation there exists an energy wholly apart form aether. One driven by emotions

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How does prayer/belief differ from Dynamis then? When primals are summoned, the emotional state and will of the summoner definitely affects the result.

We learned with Elysion, the longing for one's homeland is what shaped the improbable recreation of extinct species and long destroyed worlds and architectures. Obviously due to UT's Dynamis density this happened quite rapidly. All I'm asserting is despite Dynamis being "weaker" on Etheirys, evidence of it having some affect on phenomena is not unheard of. Limit Breaks, Elpis flowers, and Blasphemies were all affected by Dynamis. My point is, though Dynamis is weaker, it still has an effect but perhaps is slower/passive compared to a highly Dynamis dense place like Thule such that widespread belief over millenia gave rise to the phenomena that creatures suddenly gain massive amounts of power.

We know it only occurs in the far east where the belief is held which to me suggest it's a case of belief manifesting reality (albeit slowly and randomly) similar to how it worked in Elysion which was faster and more direct (due to the density there)

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

This is only true in Ultima Thule. Ultima Thule is a place where "emotions dictate reality", presumably because it is exclusively comprised of dynamis. The same rules don't apply on Etheirys, presumably because Etheirys is mostly aether.

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My main point is that while yes, Dynamis is thinner here, it isn't absent. Therefore rather than 1 or 2 beings wishing fervently for water to return or to fly again and it happening fairly instantly, on Etheirys it may be it requires millions of people to hold a religious belief that animals gain sentience and power if they live long enough. Widespread, mass-scale belief over centuries could have a similar effect as what we witness in Thule, but the time required is much longer due to Dynamis being thinner. If it worked for the 12 and the 12 being shaped by peoples beliefs, why not for auspices. If people believe they have a wrathful form (aramitama) then that's what transpires, not unlike how when Dalamud was launched, suddenly the superstition that it was Menphina's hound manifested a pet dog in Menphina's realm.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

How does prayer/belief differ from Dynamis then? When primals are summoned, the emotional state and will of the summoner definitely affects the result.

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Prayer is not dynamis, prayer is prayer.

Also nobody was praying to the Auspices.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

My main point is that while yes, Dynamis is thinner here, it isn't absent. Therefore rather than 1 or 2 beings wishing fervently for water to return or to fly again and it happening fairly instantly, on Etheirys it may be it requires millions of people to hold a religious belief that animals gain sentience and power if they live long enough. Widespread, mass-scale belief over centuries could have a similar effect as what we witness in Thule, but the time required is much longer due to Dynamis being thinner. If it worked for the 12 and the 12 being shaped by peoples beliefs, why not for auspices. If people believe they have a wrathful form (aramitama) then that's what transpires, not unlike how when Dalamud was launched, suddenly the superstition that it was Menphina's hound manifested a pet dog in Menphina's realm.

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I think I see how you're getting yourself confused: you're stretching the definition of dynamis. Dynamis is an emotional energy. Emotion is not the same as wishes, beliefs, or prayers. If you want to better understand the difference between these abstract concepts, dictionary definitions and wikipedia articles should get you moving in the right direction.

But all complexity about Dynamis aside, I think the biggest mistake you've made is to make the assumption that auspices are an unnatural phenomenon that needs explanation, rather than a natural part of the way life on Etheirys works. And that's a huuuuge assumption when we're talking about a fantasy world filled with magic and ghosts.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I think I see how you're getting yourself confused: you're stretching the definition of dynamis. Dynamis is an emotional energy. Emotion is not the same as wishes, beliefs, or prayers. If you want to better understand the difference between these abstract concepts, dictionary definitions and wikipedia articles should get you moving in the right direction.

But all complexity about Dynamis aside, I think the biggest mistake you've made is to make the assumption that auspices are an unnatural phenomenon that needs explanation, rather than a natural part of the way life on Etheirys works. And that's a huuuuge assumption when we're talking about a fantasy world filled with magic and ghosts.

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I also suspect he might be conflating the auspices and the kami; the kami actually are worshipped, and seem to in some level be empowered and shaped by the prayers given to them in a way that's not completely dissimilar to the Twelve (who also have nearly nothing to do with dynamis), albeit not in a way that the story ever gives full focus or explanation to.

Meanwhile, nobody's praying to the auspices; they seem to be figures of myth, but more on the level of, say, the cyclops or the pegasus rather than someone like Hercules. A part of a tale, rather than deities to be revered. ...and people don't seem to know their story very well, either, judging by their Tataru quest. You can pretty safely exclude the Auspices from any discussion of 'maybe belief shaped them', because their entire source of power literally comes from 'hide in a cave in the middle of nowhere and just soak up the ambient aether'.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Meanwhile, nobody's praying to the auspices;

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That's not entirely true. Seiryu was explicitly venerated as a snake deity prior to becoming a full auspice. In the present, Seiryu is worshipped as a god of geomancy.

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Originally Posted by Eorzea Encyclopedia II

Seiryu: The guardian of the east is an imposing dragon with cerulean scales. Artists often show him grasping a jewel of immense power in his right claw. In the tales, said jewel is often put to use creating miracles, and as a result several locales worship Seiryu as a god of geomancy.

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The auspices in general are generally respected as any kami and seen as gods.

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Originally Posted by Eorzea Encyclopedia II

Auspices: An integral part of Far Eastern folklore since ancient times, an auspice is an animal that has ascended to godhood. Legends tell of birds and beasts which, having outlived their ordinary lifespan by decades, attain a sense of self. Over the course of a thousand years, such creatures gradually amass a mystical strength, until one day they awaken to powers of divine magnitude. Auspices are considered deities in their own right, as awe-inspiring and respected as any kami.

These ascended animals are, however, plagued by a dual nature. When the boundless calm - the nigimitama - comes to the fore, an auspice often serves as a benevolent guardian, protecting the people from malicious entities. But when the primal rage - the aramitama - takes over, the auspice runs wild, wreaking disasters of divine proportions. Many a folktale and minstrel’s verse is the recounting of a heroic effort made to contain these rampaging beings.

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Originally Posted by Dikatis

That's not entirely true. Seiryu was explicitly venerated as a snake deity prior to becoming a full auspice. In the present, Seiryu is worshipped as a god of geomancy.



The auspices in general are generally respected as any kami and seen as gods.

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Ah, thankyou for the correction on this one!

It's still a correction that largely underlines the point rather than refutes it, though: the Auspices are revered and prayed to after becoming Auspices, not before. So they can't really be shaped by faith, because the faith comes after the form.

I'm sure Senri was worshipped with pets and offerings of cat food well before she became capable of killing her opponents five times before they hit the ground.

'Don't know how it is in your homeland, but here, if an animal manages to survive a hundred years, it begins to get ideas. Delusions of grandeur. Some small power, sure, but nothing much to speak of. Survive ten times that and you become a full-fledged auspice, though. Speech! Magicks! It's quite the change, believe me, which is why we call it... the change. What? I never said it was something clever.'

Hard to say definitively how this happens or why, at present. But transforming yourself through your willpower and your belief in yourself? It doesn't sound like a standard aetheric practice, at least. It's a stalemate without the devs weighing in further, but OP's initial question is a sensible one. It's only when you stop asking such questions that dogma sinks in.